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New Skool vs. Old School - JUMPS

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 
It just occurred to me that the typical jumps of 10, 20, and 30 years ago are practically extinct. Back then, it was all about backscratchers, daffies, kosaks, and of course heli's. But now, it seems to ONLY be about heli's.

Take JH this past week where I spent a decent amount of time in the terrain park. At least 95% of the jumps were all about spinning. Sure it's awesome to do a 360, 540, or 720 be it starting and/or landing switch. But doesn't it get old after a while?

Maybe I'm writing about this topic cuz I haven't successfully landed a 360 (although I have only tried once), but I personally think the older tricks are more appealing especially when they are held for a very long time or the leg extension is ridiculous.

And the risk factor doesn't seem all that great considering how effortlessly these kids were throwing down their spins. I would've like to have seen them go that much bigger in an attempt to nail a double or even a triple daffy. That to me requires more b***s.

Any thoughts?
post #2 of 26
The tricks you mentioned are visually appealing, but I don't think they're as difficult as a 360 or 540. New generations keep upping the ante in terms of degree of difficulty. You see the same thing in gymnastics and diving.

Twelve years ago, I landed a 360 once and it was a big deal then. Now it's commonplace. I'm actually planning on making a trip up to Lake Placid this summer to use their water ramp, so I can learn some of the jumps that the kids today are doing without risk of injury and before I'm definitively over the hill.
post #3 of 26
Here's something I found where they rate the degree of difficulty of various jumps:

http://www.ussa.org/PublishingFolder...mogulddmen.pdf.

A triple daffy is actually rated only slightly harder than a generic 360. That's kind of surprising, I think. You have to have a huge amount of air to do a triple daffy.
post #4 of 26
Thread Starter 
Nice link.

I guess it looks like I might be confusing risk factor and actual difficulty in the jump. For me, it's quite a challenge to go big and kick my legs back far behind me and try to hold it that much extra longer each time. The one time I tried to do a 360, I had quite the nice spill. The one and only time that I bit it bad doing a backscratcher....well....I'm sure you can imagine what that feels like when you either get too greedy or too lazy and nick your ski tips on the way back down.
post #5 of 26
Spinning off-axis is another big thing in today's skiing. Jibbers are using some skate tricks like the mctwist, and then re-invent it and slap a new funky name on it. There are still a lot of grabs in skiing and grabs can be very difficult. I remember the first time I attempted a spin with a grab, oh geez, I ate my sh*t so bad.
post #6 of 26
I am old school here. I still do my daffys, backscratchers/iron crosses and helis. What these "new schoolers" are doing in just fantastic. Taking off and landing switch? We would never have thought of that in the 80's. I still make it a point every year to do at least one helicopter.
post #7 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguljunkie
The tricks you mentioned are visually appealing, but I don't think they're as difficult as a 360 or 540.
Compare a 360 or 540 to a clean daffy-twister-spread and report back on which is hard - and which is more rewarding. Btw - Is that why everyone is doing the same couple of jumps now - because they think they're "hard"? It shouldn't be about hard, it should be about doing what you want to do, expressing yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguljunkie
New generations keep upping the ante in terms of degree of difficulty.
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*wipes tear of hilarity from eye*
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You clearly have no idea of what was going on in the 1970's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguljunkie
Twelve years ago, I landed a 360 once and it was a big deal then.
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...a big deal to you, maybe. Let's not confuse our personal history with ski history.
Sorry to be hard on you moguljunkie, but you have to learn some ski
HISTORY!
If it doesn't improve your skiing it will certainly improve your posting.
post #8 of 26
I can see where you're coming from on the daffy-twister-spread being harder than a 3...but harder than anything else is just stupid to say. There's guys in the park throwing rodeo 5s, misty 7s, and lincon loops. Now there is no way at all you can say a combo of old skool tricks is harder than those. If you still think so than I'd like to see you try a misty 7.

And that's not even bringing the topic of rails into the discussion.
post #9 of 26
Umm Tanner Hall broke his ankles doing a switch 900 over Chad's gap (55mph in run, going switch, take off and spin 900 degrees over a 120 foot gap).

If you watch closely you will see the difficulty is being stepped up every year, opposite hand grabs (grabbing with the leading hand, much harder as it throws balance), spinning unnatural (opposite direction you normally spin), 2 handed grabs, true tail grabs (grabbing the very tail of the ski), and the smoothness and style that these guys throw down just makes it look easy.

Pretty sure anyone that can land a big 540/720+ with a grab smoothly could do a triple daffy no problem, it's not a hard trick, oldschool tricks are easy assuming you have the airtime but they are not visually appealing at all (not smooth). I grew up with spread eagles, back scratchings, daffy etc. I am so happy with the way things are going now, it looks so much more visually impressive.

Old school do you honestly think a daffy twister spread is harder than a switch 1080 true tail grab? Come on.
post #10 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyJones
I can see where you're coming from on the daffy-twister-spread being harder than a 3...but harder than anything else is just stupid to say. There's guys in the park throwing rodeo 5s, misty 7s, and lincon loops. Now there is no way at all you can say a combo of old skool tricks is harder than those. If you still think so than I'd like to see you try a misty 7.

And that's not even bringing the topic of rails into the discussion.
I'd love to try one - if you can point out a glossary of new-school terms (pref w/diagrams/video) I'd be thrilled!
I'm having a really hard time trying to figure out what is what - I've just returned to skiing after a long break. Have yet to hit a terrain park, but it looks like fun. I used to skateboard too - in the Tony Alva days. My old "hot-dog' skiing came back no problem, and I suspect all the skateboarding stuff is still in my bones - do you figure the skateboarding background will help in the park?

Never tried rails, but it doesn't look too hard. Basically a simple balance drill,no? Looks like it might screw up your skis, though?

I'm on 180cm Atomic SX9 SuperCross (I'm 6'1") - how are those for the park?
post #11 of 26
Old School,

In every sport, athletes get better from generation to generation. Why does that bother you so much? It doesn't take away from your accomplishments. As long as you were on the top of your game when you were in your prime, that's all that matters.

Here's a link to some clips of modern jumps, including the misty 720: http://www.skidebosses.com/sauts.htm. I like the clip of Toby Dawson's 360 daffy cross.

On that other link I posted, a daffy twister spread is given a degree of difficulty rating of 1.19, much lower than any inverted or rotational jumps. I imagine the judges know a little about the sport, but apparently not as much as you.

When I mentioned having done a 360 and that it was a big deal, I wasn't stating that I had accomplished some monumental ski feat that should be recorded in the annals of skiing history. It was merely infrequent at the mountains I skied at to see one done. Jumping was illegal and you had to take whatever you could find -- usually a large mogul at the bottom of a bump run. Now, almost every time I go up the lift and pass the terrain park, I see someone do a 360, usually with a mute grab or an iron cross thrown in.
post #12 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramboh
Umm Tanner Hall broke his ankles doing a switch 900 over Chad's gap (55mph in run, going switch, take off and spin 900 degrees over a 120 foot gap).
If you watch closely you will see the difficulty is being stepped up every year, opposite hand grabs (grabbing with the leading hand, much harder as it throws balance), spinning unnatural (opposite direction you normally spin), 2 handed grabs, true tail grabs (grabbing the very tail of the ski), and the smoothness and style that these guys throw down just makes it look easy.
Pretty sure anyone that can land a big 540/720+ with a grab smoothly could do a triple daffy no problem, it's not a hard trick, oldschool tricks are easy assuming you have the airtime but they are not visually appealing at all (not smooth). I grew up with spread eagles, back scratchings, daffy etc. I am so happy with the way things are going now, it looks so much more visually impressive.
Old school do you honestly think a daffy twister spread is harder than a switch 1080 true tail grab? Come on.
I don't know what a switch 1080 true tail grab is, so I can't say (though I'd LOVE to know - you can't imagine how frustrating it is to come back to a sport and everyone is speaking a different language!).

Here are some of the old tricks:
NOTE: These are some of the old school basics. From BEFORE there were commercial competitions! From a time when we were looked down upon for this stuff (seriously!) and threatened with membership loss.
I like combinations, but instead of rushing them I'd just get more air. Personally, I go for the "less is more" philosophy: I'd rather spend big air on a lazy 360 than trying to stuff in a huge combo, but that's just me. I like moving slowly in the air - no idea how it looks and I don't care.

Twister: probably the simplest jump of all, but always one of my favourites. Usually used in combinations, but I used to love hitting a jump, bump, or mogul fast and hard for huge air and spending all my air time on one really lazy twister. My fave twister: Competitive freestyle was just beginning and they'd built a 8-12 foot 'wedge' (I think it's the same as a 'floater' - no lip, for stand-up jumps) on our hill. Last run, with a lookout beside the jump, we'd crouch from a long way up, making sure we had max possible speed and then 'illegally' hit that jump. I had 215 downhill racing skis, so you can imagine some major air was had! I'd often just do one slow, slow, slow, slow twister. Jumping with that kind of speed is stupid and wrong, of course. Don't do it. Stay in school.

Daffy: best used in a combinations or off a small cliff. Triple daffys (or more) tend to look sloppy, though. A clean double-daffy with huge air is a nice thing to see.

Backscratcher: best flashed off a mogul.

Star: Like a backscratcher but with end of the skis together, up between your shoulder blades, and the tips pointing straight down and spread. Poles come back behind head and point up and out - the idea being to mimic the shape of the skis, which along with your head, create the "star" look.
Best done off a mogul or done "lazy".

Inverted Star: Poles do the same thing, and skis go up and back BUT the front of the skis cross over each other (as much as possible). Binding toes should touch.

Mule Kick: I'd almost forgotten this one but I saw some 'big mountain" guy pull one off a huge cliff in one of the big ski films. Kind of like an asymetrical Star, with skis and poles to one side.

Iron Cross: the first "grab" jump, as far as I know. I first saw it about 1972. In air the skier assumes a very compact downhill crouch-like position, and crosses one ski overtop of the other so that from below the skiis form a
+ shape. If the right ski crosses, then the right arm crosses too, under the knee and down the ski as possible.

Old school , new school, whatever - fun, creativity and personal expression are the only things that should matter when you're in the iar.
post #13 of 26
hey moguljunkie I'm totally with you man.

THe new school tricks are so much harder, and so much cooler than what was going on in the 70s. I grew up at that time and I was doing helis, backscratchers, and daffys. A heli WAS a big deal back then. The guys landing helis were the tops.

Now a simple 360 is just par for the course. The real good guys are landing ridiculous tricks. Hey, they got new equipment, and terrain parks where they can train all day. It's easier to get access to quality jumps, but no way can you compare 30 years ago to today's jumps.
post #14 of 26
You forgot the jump

Header: wear you lean way forward and almost touch your nose to your tips.

Today at a wonderful powder day AT magic I got some air and did some old school, twister, and some new school, side grabs

Alfonse
post #15 of 26
Go find the nerve to throw a 540 in a terrain park and you'll find out how difficult it is compared to straight air-twisty-kosack-daffy's. Spins are so much more difficult. Anyone who can do 2+ revolutions is something special in my book.
post #16 of 26
It's all about the kosak.
post #17 of 26

Screamin' Semen!

1) You need a lot of airtime
2) Cross right leg over left (or vice-versa)
3) Hope you can uncross your legs before landing

Not pretty at all, even when done correctly. Usually practiced by guys who don't go to any school.
post #18 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchool
Btw - Is that why everyone is doing the same couple of jumps now - because they think they're "hard"? It shouldn't be about hard, it should be about doing what you want to do, expressing yourself.
No, no, no.

Thats precisely why no one is doing a daffy-twister-spread, because its about expression, and no one wants to express that.

Quote:
Quote:
1) You need a lot of airtime
2) Cross right leg over left (or vice-versa)
3) Hope you can uncross your legs before landing

Not pretty at all, even when done correctly. Usually practiced by guys who don't go to any school.
I screwed up so many topsheets back when I used to do these. It was exponentially harder on 198s than it is today.
post #19 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguljunkie
In every sport, athletes get better from generation to generation. Why does that bother you so much?

Here's a link to some clips of modern jumps, including the misty 720: http://www.skidebosses.com/sauts.htm. I like the clip of Toby Dawson's 360 daffy cross.

On that other link I posted, a daffy twister spread is given a degree of difficulty rating of 1.19, much lower than any inverted or rotational jumps. I imagine the judges know a little about the sport, but apparently not as much as you.
Thanks for the link - I'll check it out. 360 daffy cross? That sounds like good stuff!
I agree athletes get better and better, I'm not disputing it. But there's no comparing then and now because almost all of the jumps are different, and because there is almost no record of "free-skiing" then, just freestyle competitions.
The difficulty ratings in that other link were interesting but they reminded me of how old-timey "free-skiing" became the crappy, soul-less, gymnast-fests known as "freestyle competitions".
The only sport that should have judges is figure-skating - it's horrible enough to deserves judges. Imposing that kind of competitive framework over a sport isn't always a good thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billd
hey moguljunkie I'm totally with you man.
THe new school tricks are so much harder, and so much cooler than what was going on in the 70s. I grew up at that time and I was doing helis, backscratchers, and daffys. A heli WAS a big deal back then. The guys landing helis were the tops.

Now a simple 360 is just par for the course. The real good guys are landing ridiculous tricks. Hey, they got new equipment, and terrain parks where they can train all day. It's easier to get access to quality jumps, but no way can you compare 30 years ago to today's jumps.
Disagree: It's all a matter of personal perspective but I'll say it again: a heli wasn't a big deal back then. I threw 30 a day off moguls and natural features, and I wasn't anywhere near the top.
Agree: It is much much much easier to get access to quality jumps - but more important: quality landings. A lot of the time, because they had to be hidden, our jumps had nearly flat landing areas. A chiropractor's dream.
Agree: You can't compare yesterday's and today's jumps. Apples and oranges. The biggest difference: if someone today tries something interesting, it will certainly be videotaped. Back then almost nothing was documented - freestyle competitions, but little or no "freeskiing".
If someone did a double-back off a 40-foot cliff in the '70's the only people to hear/care about it would be immediate friends. And, in case of injury or death, family.
Videotaping and the internet allow everyone to learn what everyone else is doing, and how to do it - and that is really great.
post #20 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguljunkie
Here's a link to some clips of modern jumps, including the misty 720: http://www.skidebosses.com/sauts.htm. I like the clip of Toby Dawson's 360 daffy cross.
OKKKK! That's exactly what I was looking for! Thanks a ton, moguljunkie!!!
A lot of those look like a lot of fun.
That Back Full - we called that a mobius - I didn't include any aerials in my little list, but I guess those names have changed too. It's enough to make an old man's head spin.
The Loop Full clips show how the right amount of air makes all the difference.
Coo jump(s), but: Egg Roll and Lincoln Loop - there's a difference?
post #21 of 26
I love that site. I check it all the time for world cup mogul ski material.

A good jump that's not on the link above, but is on the site (if you go to the main directory of www.skidebosses.com you can get access to not only jumps, but the top 3 men and women full runs of each world cup competition):

Dave Babic doing a D-Spin 1080. Awesome stuff: http://www.skidebosses.com/2005/vide...babic-1080.wmv

Now, here is my take. For me personally it's about challenge. I can't jump for crap. The extent of my jumps right now are doing a spread, and doing a twister. If I get to the point where I can do a double twister, or a kosak.. I'd be thrilled. I like how the old school tricks look when well done. I think there is nothing cooler than a big air quad twister where each twister is done well. I personally think that looks even cooler than a lot of the new school tricks (which often there is so much going on in so little time it's hard to 'see' it all).

But anyway, back to competition. For a lot of the folks competing.. doing the new school tricks is certainly a lot harder than doing the old school stuff. I mean, they've been doing the old school stuff forever, but the new school stuff is well.. new. They are pushing it and trying new things (ie - Dave Babic's D-spin 10). The risk factor is also huge compared to most of the old school tricks. To go do a jump that requires you to not spot the landing for part of it, or a jump that puts you in a position where, if you mess up, you could break your neck.. certainly more risk than a jump where you are upright for the whole thing.

What I see a lot of these guys doing is mixing it up. It seems a lot of them do a new school trick on one of the jumps, and either do a big air old school combination (multiple twisters), or a heli/720 variation type trick on the other jump.

But bottom line.. the sport (mogul skiing) is much more exciting now than it was when it comes to jumping, now that off-axis and inverted tricks are allowed. It really opened the door to trying new things, and new stuff is always good.
post #22 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack
To go do a jump that requires you to not spot the landing for part of it, or a jump that puts you in a position where, if you mess up, you could break your neck.. certainly more risk than a jump where you are upright for the whole thing.
: I didn't mean to give anyone the impression that all we did back in the day were upright jumps!!!:
I didn't add aerials to my list but here goes:

front tuck
back tuck

front layout
back layout

front mobius (mobieus? sp?)
back mobius
...and various combinations of the aforementioned, such as back layout-tuck, or back layout/front tuck (haha! just kidding about that one), triple front tuck, double back mobius, etc.

The corking and sideways stuff (rodeo?) is new to me, but it looks great and natural.
The first thing I notice about the new jumps is that they were obviously the result of practising them in safe circumstances (trampoline, water, etc) and not hidden in the trees onto a flat landing, etc! Thank god that crap doesn't have to take place anymore.
Alot of them look as if the jumpers are trying to cram too much stuff into one jump. Bigger air would take care of that, though.
post #23 of 26
Wow D-Spin 1080 in the moguls, pretty impressive although it look hucked (spinning really fast) but it's not like he has much room.

http://www.teddybearcrisis.com/

click on view movie in the lower right hand corner.
post #24 of 26
Hey OldSchool-

F-off, you are a complete idiot. And yes i am reviving this thread to tell you this. I will put money on you not being able to through a 5 let alone a 7. Old school tricks are not as hard as the stuff people are doing now a days.

You would never of been good enough to do the stuff these guys are doing now even if your were 16 right now...not a chance...those guys are basically pro athletes who decided they wanted to ski.
post #25 of 26
The whole point of freestyle is expression, as mentioned above. There are some very tough old-school tricks, like a Screamin' Seaman, but some of the new school are rather difficult too, like off axis spins, cross over grabs (right hand grabbing left ski and so on, like a non-crossed up mute grab).

However, I do believe that many people that can throw new school tricks should try old school tricks, if for no other reason than to pay homage to where the new school came from. To this day, I think the best trick I've seen in a movie was a blend of old and new school, but it was SUPER smooth. I forget who it was, but they did a backflip 180 with a HUGE daffy.

In terms of competitions of late though, many skiers and riders are rebelling from the "spin to win" philosophies, where the biggest hucked spins won, and people are looking for smooth "styley" tricks. The only problem is that judging is subjective. When it becomes objective, like it has been since FIS allowed inverts and off-axis spins, hucked tricks get too much credit.

Many skiers and riders today would agree that just like the "hot dog" days of the 70's, freestyle/freeride is about expression and smooth transitions from trick to trick (or jump to jump).
post #26 of 26
Hey gretch6364,

Thanks for bringing this back up. When I'm in the park I like to throw old school stuff just to hear the park rats GROAN!!!. The 3xDaffy RULES!! We used to call it "the moonwalk...."

Welcome aboard and think you for flying with old school airlines....

L
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