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multi layered question? - Page 2

post #31 of 53
Gee, seems like a Quagmire every time people get into "Rotary". Just Tipping my ankle must Rotate something with all them bones in there. If I had to guess, I'd say most Examiners are familiar with clever candidates trying to surreptitiously morph their answers from WAG to reasonable.

Perhaps respondants should always refer to -What- is rotating and in what Plane when they use the term.

Anyway, methinks dchan has a winning entry according to the newest PSIA mantras. I'd add to the middle phase though.

- edge to initiate
- rotary to shape *OR* Edging to Shape (they're both 'Steering')
- pressure control to finish.

By PSIA definition, it's correct to use rotation-of-the-ski on the snow in Wedge, WC and Open Parallel to initiate and shape.

When we get to Dynamic Parallel, Rotation (of the ski against the snow) becomes a mere assistant to the turn. No doubt scarving a very short radius turn involves ski rotation against the snow even if it's just the back 85% with only the tip carving.

Out here (PNW) L2' candidates be warned: Twisting skis to an edge (a rotary) is FQ for Short, Med, RhythmChanges & Skating. Might also be FQ for Outside Ski turns and Leapers (not sure).

We *can* shape a carved turn just by tipping more/less as needed. Levering forward against the ski tips certainly digs them in more and can shape the turn even tighter. (Tails might wash out a wee bit though) This still isn't the same as *deliberately* applying leg-torque to rotate the ski over the surface of the snow.

IsHull, thanks for the handout link. I'd not found that document before. Looks pretty direct and informative. Have to poke it with a sharp stick for a while.

On the pressure thing, I think added pressure can bend the skis more than sidecut would suggest under normal circumstances.

In turn phase III, where both CF & G combine to create more pressure on the middle of our skis the tip might be hanging on to the turn, but the snow under the middle of the ski may give way allowing the ski-waist to 'drift out' - thus tightening the turn radius. The tail will stay in the migrating rut made by the waist. Levering into the front of my boots has a similar effect from what I perceive.

If support at the middle of the ski gives way, and the tip and tail hold, the ski will bend more with no change in pressure. I know, 'cause I watch my skis.

Quite a good topic for Level 2 & 3s - I hear some version of this question always gets asked.

.ma
post #32 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelA
We *can* shape a carved turn just by tipping more/less as needed. Levering forward against the ski tips certainly digs them in more and can shape the turn even tighter. (Tails might wash out a wee bit though) This still isn't the same as *deliberately* applying leg-torque to rotate the ski over the surface of the snow.
Michael,

This is exactly my point. The action that will see the most change in the direction our skis point is "deliberately applying leg-torgue". In all turns, the shape of the turn is created by this action (more or less as needed) and regulated or fine tuned by the application of our edges. We can turn our feet all day and with out the use of our edges will get some really funny turn shapes. But just applying the edges generally will only give us turns that are somewhere around the natural sidecut of the particular ski we are on.

I know (by reading other posts) turnalot is coming from a racing background. And based on this, his posts make a lot of sense to me. I'll agree that the precision in our turns comes from our edges, it's a big part of the skill blend. And in an icy race course, precison is key. When I ski/teach I'm on a big mountain and a pair of mid-fats (dynastar legend 8000's) Their natural radius is (I think) 19M. When I'm skiing bumps, tight trees or steep narrow chutes (or a combination of the three ), using skis edge/pressure to turn my skis isn't going to cut it. This is where I'm coming from. These two prespectives could very well explain the differences in our answers.....

L

PS I also agree with rotation and edging movements. See my earlier post where EM's are a rotation of the ski through it's long axis....
post #33 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnalot
Big E,
You don't rotate your body at least slightly in the direction of the turn during initiation as described in my earlier post. OK to be true to dchan's request, this is a medium radius turn on a 30 deg slope, smooth hill.
I never rotate my body in the direction of the turn at initiation -- I turn my feet/rotate my femurs, whatever words you guys use.

In Canada, we use "pivot" for turning the feet, and "rotate" for upper body actions. The only independent upper body rotation that is acceptable on groomed trails is "counter rotation".
post #34 of 53
IsHull, methinks we're on similar wavelengths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lshull
But just applying the edges generally will only give us turns that are somewhere around the natural sidecut of the particular ski we are on.
On this I'd dredge up the extended thought that a 'natural sidecut turn radius' doesn't exist of itself - it's more like the 'natural sidecut turn radius for a given edge angle'. We can deliberately drive/rotate(Ugh)/tip the knees to immediately tip the skis more and produce a quick turn radius reduction. Stiff skis obviously yield a lesser response.

While this is a kind of leg rotation (as mentioned above) it's still not required for me to skid the skis unless I need more of a Turn than Tip will Tackle. This might be what your trees insist on.

BigE, sounds like a good way to differentiate rotations. 'Pivot' for ski movement against the snow and 'Rotation' for bodily things higher up.

I too would go with an idea of upper-body counter-rotation at the start of a turn rather than rotating the upper body into the direction of the turn. (Whether my skis produce it or I do it deliberately) Once the turn is well on its way and I've sufficient Inside-Half stuff going on, then yes, my upper body begins to 'rotate into the turn' or better said: turn with the skis.

Still, I can easily see where turnalot (and many others) would perceive necessary upper-body movement into the new turn direction on a steep slope with medium radius turns. If my momentum is more down the hill than across the hill when I release my CM, I'd better create some rotational momentum to get my skis going where I'm already headed.

.ma

[edit for ...well... stuff]
post #35 of 53
Thread Starter 

by George, I think hes got it

So I think I got it. (arguably)

Turn Start:
engage edges - Im just finishing up the transition, so I engage my new edges

Turn middle:
guide my skis - aided by rotary (non-Canadian def) movements

Turn Finish:
manage pressure - ending this turn, and getting ready to initiate the next turn.

I found it very interesting in Ishulls post that he says:

They might be what we FEEL, but it's not what we are primarlly DOING (and why they call it a "Turn"....)

that distinction is very important in my opinion. I can FEEL myself edging, managing pressure, getting into the bootcuff, etc to shape my turn. What I am DOING, however, primarily is turning my feet with more force or less force depending on my intent, and because the edges are engaged, there must be resistence. (yes this is in a parallel turn, after some momentum has picked up) Some may feel this resistence as "pressure", and it definitely is, but it is one we are creating (R), as opposed to one we are reacting to(CF/G).
( Whoa. I just had a cognitive moment! call the newsmedia.)

I did not realize the significance of this question as it relates to overall understanding of a complete turn. That for me is a biggie......

Im getting my sleep tonight.
post #36 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpski
that distinction is very important in my opinion. I can FEEL myself edging, managing pressure, getting into the bootcuff, etc to shape my turn. What I am DOING, however, primarily is turning my feet with more force or less force depending on my intent, and because the edges are engaged, there must be resistence. (yes this is in a parallel turn, after some momentum has picked up) Some may feel this resistence as "pressure", and it definitely is, but it is one we are creating (R), as opposed to one we are reacting to(CF/G).
( Whoa. I just had a cognitive moment! call the newsmedia.).
DING, DING, DING !!! We have another winner folks!!!

L
post #37 of 53
I'd say, it depends:

Say a basic parallel turn. As the CSIA defines the basic parallel turn, there is no early edge. The dominant skill at initiation will be rotary. Edging comes into play only after the fall-line is reached,then ressure control at completion (to release). In such turns, and initial steering angle is set through rotary, and once the edges engage, further shaping of the turn is really not all that important -- these are basic turns.

In a more advanced parallel turn, the early edge will be there. So in these turns edging skills come into play far earlier in the turn and the importance of the rotary skills now rises in the shaping phase.....
post #38 of 53
I like the CSIA's way of detailing turn mechanics, clear and concise list of movements.

Also liked your cert process, at least back in the late seventies when I took my level II. Do you still have a five day course format where the candidates are cliniced the first three days then tested the last two? This format seemed a great way for candidates to learn exactly what examiners wanted and expected and an oppertunity to ask questions for clarity openly then be tested on it. I remember everyone lined up the hill for skiing demos too and every examiner scored every candidate on the same run and conditions. A little pressure for candidate but fair.
post #39 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
I'd say, it depends:

Say a basic parallel turn. As the CSIA defines the basic parallel turn, there is no early edge.
But you still have to CHANGE the edges from the previous turn. This movement, is a movement of the edges towards the inside of the new turn. This is the same direction we move the edges to engage the at the end of the turn. One is down the hill and one is up the hill, but I'd say it's they are the same movement, towards the center of the new turn. Weather or not the skis are on edge before the fall line or not, I'd say is a refinement of the skills for any particular skier. However, the basic movement are the same.

L
post #40 of 53
Bud,

It's still a five day course, but the daily work is different. This is the level II course outline:

http://www.snowpro.com/posts/nationa...1212152959.pdf

lshull, I agree. The basic movements are the same. Where I disagree is that the beginning parallel skier will be concerned primarily with getting the skis to turn, so for them the rotary component is critical. So I propose that the level of the skier attempting the move is also important to answer the question.

In answering "rotary" at initiation, I chose the skill that the skier learning the basic parallel turn would be focussed on using. I would not refocus on edging right away.

I suspect that if you were to demonstrate the basic turn to the ability of the skier, you too would not apply early edging, and have them focus on the rotary nature of initiation. Edge control would be introduced as a "tip": rotating the skiis is easier when the skis are flat. Why? Lateral movement is hard, and addressing it head on for a learning basic parallel skier would not be my approach.
post #41 of 53
I think it depends on the terrain.

I start my turns from neutral, having finished my previous turn.

If I am on relatively flat terrain, I start with a tipping movement, followed by a pivoting (rotary) movement, and end with pressure management.

If I am on relatively steep terrain, I can't start with a tipping movement. I tend to finish my turns farther across the hill. Let's say for a brief period I am travelling perpendicular to the fall line. Any tipping at this point would be tipping the skis downhill. My body would have to be downhill from my skis to allow me to tip them downhill. I haven't developed any forces to support my body being down the hill from my skis.

So, on steeper terrain, my initial movement would be a pivoting (rotary) movment to point my skis somewhat downhill. My next movement would be a tipping movement and again I would end with pressure management.

As an example. let's say you are not moving, but are standing still with your skis pointed across the fall line. Assuming you start at neutral, your first movement has to be a pivoting (rotary) movement to point your tips downhill. Tipping would only result in sideslipping, not turning.
post #42 of 53
HMmmm. BigE, the more you write the more I agree with your perspectives. It comes down to *Who* we are teaching and *What* we intend to teach. Your more granular breakout of introductary Open Parallel turns would leave the emphasis on ski-rotary initiation according to what I read in the PSIA mantra.

It's only at advanced levels (7 and up) that Dynamic Parallel refinement is introduced. Pivoting to an edge isn't a required element for Open Parallel turns but it's pretty much what everyone does. In a way, the ability to Pivot-to-an-Edge vs. Tip-and-Pressure (sans the twist) to initiate our turns is the distinction between PSIA Level I and Level II turns.

I too find a lot of good info on the CSIA website. I've read their manuals and watched their Cert Prep video. Nice of them to put up some clear (free) video representing their own standards. Wish PSIA would put up a bunch of free video showing a variety of skiers making turns that would meet standards. Might also be nice to see some video with barely-sub-standard skiing along with descriptions as to *Why* it wouldn't pass the stated level. This might reduce the number of acrimonious Exam candidates.

As to edging in every turn sure, we need to modify edge angles in *every* turn from Wedge turns on up. But as we're trying to help a student to their next level the question becomes what skill should we focus on that they *don't* already possess?

From WC to OP the keys would seem to be 'Early Weight Transfer' and 'Simultaneous Edge Change' - two skills new to the WC skier. From OP to DP I'd go with 'CM management', 'Edge Control Refinement' and 'Immediate Ski Pressure', in that order.

Getting back to jpski's original question
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpski
What primary skill do you use at the start of a turn? The middle of a turn? The end of a turn?
I'd immediately ask the examiner to clarify, "What kind of turn, in what conditions, on what terrain and for what level of skier?" Of course, we'd better have a reasonable answer for each possible reply from the examiner...

.ma
post #43 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
I'd say, it depends:

Say a basic parallel turn. As the CSIA defines the basic parallel turn, there is no early edge. The dominant skill at initiation will be rotary. Edging comes into play only after the fall-line is reached,then ressure control at completion (to release). In such turns, and initial steering angle is set through rotary, and once the edges engage, further shaping of the turn is really not all that important -- these are basic turns.

In a more advanced parallel turn, the early edge will be there. So in these turns edging skills come into play far earlier in the turn and the importance of the rotary skills now rises in the shaping phase.....

See my previous posts in this thread. I mentioned the same thing. Depending on the type of turn. . .

So I set some "abolutes" regarding the turns so we could all be talking about the same thing. If we switch to open or basic parallel turns I agree with your assesment. I think I also came to the same conclusion in my previous posts.

DC
post #44 of 53
Yes you did. Post 9:

"Pick the skill you might be working on with a student for the type of turn they are making and explain why you feel it's important for that particular teaching segment."

Reading that closer shows a great answer: the skills depend not only on the turn type, but whether or not you've taken the student into consideration. And hopefully, you have chosen that "particular teaching segment" to satisfy a need of the student.

People sometimes forget when they answer these open questions that they may be teaching an OP turn to a lower level skier or DP to a higher level skier. Regardless, the focus is always on the skill in the blend that needs the most work.

The short answer is:

The most important skill at each phase of the turn is whichever skill needs the most work in the student I am teaching.
post #45 of 53
Thread Starter 

kept going

Im glad you guys took this a little farther.

The more I learn, the more I want to know....

based on skier level, I would definitely agree that the primary focus shifts around slightly.

the focus on what we would be teaching our 4,5 & 6 level students is probably the most appropriate direction as well. I would be focussing on introductory concepts of guiding, tipping, sliding, and simultaneous edge change with both skis through the turn. The early edge engagement is a bit dynamic for these students, for sure. I guess we could take this all the way up the skills ladder from WT to DP turns. The order would shift around a bit depending on skill level. (For each level Im assuming medium terrain as a baseline, and medium turns as well)

I would need a direction from the examiner as to what type of turn, level, and terrain we are talking about. (I would probably get an answer like "the terrain you see before you, and the skills you are expected to teach for level 2)

This puts things into a better overall focus and deepens my understanding farther than I thought necessary.

thanks for taking it a bit further!
post #46 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
lshull, I agree. The basic movements are the same. Where I disagree is that the beginning parallel skier will be concerned primarily with getting the skis to turn, so for them the rotary component is critical. So I propose that the level of the skier attempting the move is also important to answer the question.

In answering "rotary" at initiation, I chose the skill that the skier learning the basic parallel turn would be focussed on using. I would not refocus on edging right away.
I don't disagree, but it's kind of the chicken and egg thing. I would say that until they get the skis flat, they can't really start rotating them (or at least it will be easier to rotate them after the edge change). It's also why I gave my initial answer regarding the initation of the turn. Get them flat and then start to steer them. Maybe my view of the initation zone is just smaller than you guys! And we all know most of our level 5-6 skiers are on a fairly flat skis anyway. Never the less, rotary skills (and their refinement) are still one of the first things I generally try to address in a lesson (turn shapes and what they do for us).

This has been a great discussion. I'm taking an interest in the Canadian viewpoint vs. what I'm used to...
post #47 of 53
What the Swiss say:

The "structures" (= necessary movements - not"skills") are the following three pairs:
(i) beugen/strecken B/S = bending/stretching
(ii) kippen/knicken KI/KN = tipping/angulating
(iii) orientieren/drehen OR/DR = orientation/rotating

The turn phases and the structures
(according to my notes from a seminar for coaches):
- initiation: B/S, KI, OR/DR
- "passive steering": KI, S, OR/DR
- "active steering":B, (S), KN, OR/DR
In all phases you use a blend of structures with some dominances or absences.

www.snowsports.ch (not very helpful in this respect)
post #48 of 53
I was sooooo blessed to study, train and pass the Assoc. Cert. exam under "milestones" and then go through the "Centerline" years. That allows me to think of every turn as the outcome of a blended variable recipe using the basic ingredients of rotation, edging, and pressure control cooked in ovens at differing altitudes and barometric pressures. Each one is a unique proiduct that requires the cook's constant tinkering with the amount of each ingredient in the recipe as the pitch, radius, speed, and surface condition fluctuates. The feedback from the feet telling the chef what is working (or not working) allows him or her to put in more or less of the different ingredients as necessary to make the final result "sweetened to taste!"

PS. shaped skiis have NOT effected the basic recipe, only the amount of each ingredient needed to be added based on the feedback from the feet as compared to the planned product.

That is just one old phart's opinion but I may be wrong.
post #49 of 53
Ishull,

You are right. It's just a matter or primary focus..... perhaps we should create a "Primary Focus Teaching System" or PFTS

checkracer,

Is the Swiss system tipping centered?
post #50 of 53
I´m not so familiar with Schneesport Schweiz and I´m not quite sure what you exactly mean by "tipping centered" but I will consult with a friend of mine, a Swiss ski teacher with some practice in Canada.

Actually I came back to the thread to improve my poor translations of beugen/strecken which should probably be bending/extending or possibly flexion/extension.
(Ott or Biowolf could correct me, please, it´s still a translation from one foreign language into another )
post #51 of 53
Thread Starter 

mmm, tasty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stache
I was sooooo blessed to study, train and pass the Assoc. Cert. exam under "milestones" and then go through the "Centerline" years.
Yea. I was introduced to PSIA around centerline time. I did not become a member until some years later, when centerline was just starting to be phased into stepping stones, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stache
PS. shaped skiis have NOT effected the basic recipe, only the amount of each ingredient needed to be added based on the feedback from the feet as compared to the planned product.

That is just one old phart's opinion but I may be wrong.
The basic ingredients are still in tact, I agree. But, like the egg that came first with that first mutated archeopterics inside, which today is known as the chicken, I say the recipie has changed!

just jokin with ya, really.

Exam time is looming and I am getting excited for the exam, believe it or not. I had a great day of prep today and my fellow instructors, TD, etc all let me take them out for a run or two and work on some teaching stuff.

Stache, sorry I couldnt hook up with ya, but Ill see if I can find you this weekend!


Thanks one and all for some really terrific thoughts here!
post #52 of 53
Stache, liked your post! and as I eluded to earlier, the answer to the original question can not be a canned answer. It requires taking the reins and setting the parameters of the task, terrain, conditions, ability level before any useful answer can be offered. An open ended question such as this could dig you a hole or put you on top of the heep depending on how prepared you really are. Good luck with your exam Jpski!
post #53 of 53
Thread Starter 

thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman
Stache, liked your post! and as I eluded to earlier, the answer to the original question can not be a canned answer. It requires taking the reins and setting the parameters of the task, terrain, conditions, ability level before any useful answer can be offered. An open ended question such as this could dig you a hole or put you on top of the heep depending on how prepared you really are. Good luck with your exam Jpski!
Thanks, Bud.

2 days. Im ready...
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