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50-50 take off and Dynamic SR turns - Page 2

post #31 of 48
Got all that evansilver?
post #32 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I agree Ric. The driving should be both forward and in, just as you point out, and it should be applied in a functional manner. All the negative outcomes of the misapplications you identify are spot on.
Not sure I understand what "forward and in" means when applied to driving the inside hip.

Is turning the leg within the inside hip socket part of "forward and in"?

Is there also a gradual up movement of the inside hip relative to the outside hip?
post #33 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coconut
Not sure I understand what "forward and in" means when applied to driving the inside hip.
Coconut? Are we neighbors?

OK, back to serious.... Imagine transitioning from a right hand turn to a left hand turn. Now imagine standing on a clock as you begin that transition, with your skis pointing at 12. You drive the left side of your hip toward 10:30 while the right side of your hip moves toward 9.



Quote:
Is turning the leg within the inside hip socket part of "forward and in"?
Yes, so to speak. There is rotation in the joint, but it's more of the nature of the hip rotating in unison about the ball of each femur.


Quote:
Is there also a gradual up movement of the inside hip relative to the outside hip?
In feeling, yes,,, in reality, no.

The goal IS to try to keep the the hips level as the legs incline (tip) into the turn. This requires a holding up (lifting) of the inside hip during that incline, so the feel is that the inside hip is lifted as the outside drops.

The reality is that it's not possible to maintain pure level hips during high edge angle turns. Here, the inside hip does in fact still end up a bit below the outside. That means returning to neutral (level) after a turn will require the new outside hip to be lifted more than the new inside. During inclination into the new turn that inside hip will again drop a shade more.

That said, I would advise those working on honing their technique to focus on the feeling of lifting the inside hip as they incline,,, not on the reality of the result.
post #34 of 48
Yes I do Rick. great clock analogy too. Later, ricB.
post #35 of 48
Sorry for this stupid question (I think this is one of those things where text is a hard substitute for a demonstration), but I don't quite understand the clock example. Which way is downhill? 12 o'clock? At the point where the turn is transitioning from right to left, wouldn't the skis be across the hill (more like 9 o'clock "perfectly", or perhaps getting to 10-ish)? Your hips (or so I've been told) should be facing closer to 12, but your skis will be countered.

Or is it just going wwwhhhhssssshhhh, right over my head?
post #36 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by delta888
I don't quite understand the clock example. Which way is downhill? 12 o'clock?
Delta, in my clock visual 12 o'clock is always the direction the skis are pointed, regardless what that direction may be. The clock rotates in unison with the turning of the skis. 12 o'clock is no way tied to the direction of the falline, the direction of 12 o'clock at the start of the transition is completely dependant on how far out of the falline a skier takes his turn before terminating it.

Quote:
At the point where the turn is transitioning from right to left, wouldn't the skis be across the hill (more like 9 o'clock "perfectly", or perhaps getting to 10-ish)?
Just so no wires get crossed here; in the transition I was describing (a right hand turn transitioning into a left) the skier is traveling from the left side (looking down) of the slope to the right. From 12 o'clock through 6 o'clock would be the uphill side of the slope, and 6 through 12 would be the downhill side.

Your example is that of a left hand turn transitioning into a right. The skis point at 12, and the falline is typically somewhere between 1 and 3.


Quote:
Your hips (or so I've been told) should be facing closer to 12, but your skis will be countered.
Yes, we're describing the same body position in relation to the skis, we just have our clocks twisted different directions.
post #37 of 48
Thank you, Rick. Now I understand what you meant. It's like a compass, except instead of the needle pointing north, the skis are always at 12.
post #38 of 48
I am going to tangent back to Dave's origional desire, that being how to make'em better, and shorter.

I didn't address theoritical guessed at radius sizes cause to me the actual radius is a non-issue. I carve'em as tight as I can and adjust as needed to get'em tighter.

"Clean'em" - First I'll carve cleanly as tight as I can get the skis to bend, whatever that is. I do this by (1) flexing legs (from full extension in the falline) to allow the skis to come around the corner without conflict with path of CM, (2) using the additional lateral articulation of lower legs that becomes avaliable as the legs flex to further roll up the feet to get skis to max edge angles and bend more and turn sharper, while (3) really pulling the inside foot back to max it's tip engagement and shorten it's radius. (feels like a tele-turn)

"Skarv'em" - To go shorter, I use (1-3 above) and apply max directional "crank" (or whatever you want to call it, wherever you think it comes from) power and torque avaliable through the more flexed legs. This really maximizes tip engagement and tighten the radius. Each ski still leaving it's own 1-2 inch wide track.

"Brush'em" - To go shorter still, I actually slow the rate of edging coming out of falline while ramping up directional effort of the legs to "brush carve" using a more balanced skill blend. This is produces tracks a few inches wide that may even merge into one wider one, but instead of a increasingly tail out skid, the ski's drift angle is constant and still a function of sidecut and edge angle. I still prefer to use a cleaner tips into falline (not tail wagged) initiation and engagment but soften the finish edging with a bias on directing the skis more across the falline.

"Clean'em" when radius is your option and line can keep speed from getting beyond what you want.

"Skarv'em" When you have width or speed constraints but still want max ski tech engagment and are on enough pitch to generate the energy required to keep these ramped up and flowing

"Brush'em" When speed control and space are the determining criteria and pitch is less and a softer smoother feel is desired.

Dave, Let me know how the exploration goes.
post #39 of 48
Thread Starter 
Playing with this lots

I found that by learning how to use the whole range of skidding to carving (flat ski and controlled rotary to high edge angle no rotary) I can now control the size of the turn better. The big breakthrough for me was having Scott Mathers watch me and help me understand where I was getting "stuck" We explored skidded turns, high edge angle turns, progressivly moving on to edge, progressivly releasing my previous edges, etc..
Standing still on a hill and just very slowly releasing the edges to a smooth round turn was almost a revelation.

The biggest thing I found helping me so far is to NOT think about where I'm pushing, balancing, turning. The one thing I am thinking about is "engage the new inside tip... SLOWLY"

This thought process gets me to release my old turn more smoothly, move first to neutral, then to the front inside (of the turn) of my boot toungue. and then COM moves the direction of the turn and down the hill. It works for me. Don't know if it makes sense to anyone else.

Arc, your explaination helped a lot in my understanding but I think I had to take my own route to get there. I will continue to explore as long as the snow lets me. I think I will only have 2 or 3 more days on the snow this season.

The "tracks" thread shows were some of my exploration has taken me..

DC
post #40 of 48
It is really just simple physics. Being a physics guy and not a ski instructor, I realize this might not be the best way for you to understand it, but it works for me.

In order to carve the grooves at the bottom of the turn, the net interacting force between your skis and the snow has a large gravity component. Because of the angle of the slope, much of this component is absent from the uphill portion of the curve. Likewise the angle of your ski's to the snow is easier to attain on the downslope part of the curve. At the bottom, a horizontal ski is already at 45 degrees to the snow on a 45 degree slope, while at the top, your skis have to be vertical in order to give you that same 45 degree angle with the snow. If you wanted to replicate the bottom-of-turn conditions at the top of the turn, you would have to angle your skis by an additional two times the slope. You would also have to push faster with your legs. Gravity is resisted by the centripetal force your skis provide to make you turn on the bottom half, but not on the top half, so you basically have to push yourself faster than gravity is making you fall before you exert any force on the snow. Draw a free-body diagram and it should become clear.

I doubt you (or any human) have sufficient range of motion in your extension to apply such a force for a long enough time to complete the entire top half of the turn. The way to carve all the way through a turn is to not have very much turn in the down hill direction. By the top half of the turn I mean where you are pushing on the snow in an uphill direction to make you go more downhill; make ( and ) shapes as opposed to s turns. The steeper the slope the lower the amount of time you can apply sufficient force on the top half of the (. It also helps if you make the top half of the ( sharper, spending less time on that portion of the curve, the opposite of a J turn as it were.
post #41 of 48
dcahn : like the ideas you are talking about, exploring whole range of edge engagement, neutral to edge slowing down turn intiation. Good stuff here. I find it is always alot easier to speed up when under control than to slow down when going too fast. Rushing movments just leads to sloppy technique and speed has a way of hiding some deficiencies in our skiing. Slowing down shows if you can make the right movements with your body to lead to efficient skiing. One task/drill I do is to get on a fairly steep slope black groomed and try to ski open parralell turn as slow as possible, (fall asleep slow) all the while I'm feeling if my core is moving into the turn properly. The big indicator for me is if there is any stem or "A" frame going on ,if there is then I'm in the back seat. Once I have the body moving into the turn at this ridicously slow speed then I ramp up the speed of my turns and start getting more dynamic turns going.
post #42 of 48
50-50 take off and Dynamic SR turns.

Am I the only one who took this to mean a 50-50 dimount from a fun box and its relationship to SR turns. I guess I've been in the park to much these last couple of weeks.
post #43 of 48
Ghost, what you are leaving out is that due to the lack of significant forces at the top of the turn, it is very easy to get a carve going with small edge angles. As long as the tips of the skis are being pressured, that is . One needs to only have the center of mass slightly downhill of the skis at the start of the turn. The edge angles can increase rapidly as the turn develops, as forces allow. Balance and counterbalance is key.
post #44 of 48
Thread Starter 
bump for the new season!
post #45 of 48

whtmt

Dave: I ditto what Bob Peters said in general. But my question to you is, are you confusing short radius dynamic turns, from a definitional point of view with high speed short radius slalom turns? The reason I mention this is that in my LIII exam in 2001 one of the examiners had us demo RR Tracks in shorter medium radius turns at quite a slow speed and on very low pitch terrain, to watch our movement patterns evolve start to finish. At no time were we expected to do both high speed dual arc pure carved SR turns on a steep slope. Just a thought to question your examiner friends or SSD at your home mountain.

On the subject of these dual arc SR turns, the only time I've been able to pull this off cleanly on steep terrain is on my snowblades and that is a challenge because they want to chatter with the amount of torsional force created. So the skis own radius combined with the speed moving forward will drive the ability to make clean arcs.

Also I think Arcmeister said it best, when he mentioned that the release of the outside ski into the new turn occuring earlier in the turn initiation by actively moving the outside ski in the new turn direction or "softening" the outside leg will allow the outside ski to release and re-engage into the turn in a more fluid and smoother fashion.

Some years ago I and some other coaches had the opportunity to ski with former Demo Team member Terry Barbour, from Mad River Glen Vt. Terry worked with us to understand that skiing very hard conditions and ice required an earlier outside ski and edge release prior to the feeling of the chatter you get when you hold onto the turn too long. He coached us to almost "fall into" the turn when the release occurs. In this way you allow the ski to find the fall-line path and new arc sooner. It is an amazingly simple but profound concept and feeling. The skis will hook up quickly and earlier then you would otherwise think possible on very hard conditions. Just an analogy for thought. Good luck with your exam.

whtmt & Mackenzie 911
post #46 of 48
Thread Starter 
The bump was more to get us thinking outside the box again. I've been playing with this and I think I'm finally beginning to get it.

Now how to put it into words and expressions for teaching. HMMM
post #47 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan
The bump was more to get us thinking outside the box again. I've been playing with this and I think I'm finally beginning to get it.

Now how to put it into words and expressions for teaching. HMMM
dchan ; I sometimes use these words to give an image to what I'm looking for in a clean arc type turn versus skidded slightly carved turn. Skis are a tool such as a knife, use a scalpel to cut clean lines like a surgeon i.e arcs or use a knife spreading peanut butter which is like skidding or smearing a turn. It can be a visaul or a feeling type of teaching depending on how one describes and demos it. I have one other analogy I have used and it is from my trade background as an electrician. Think of the skis as a regular toggle switch on /off, edges on edges off =pure arcs. If switch is a dimmer switch there is a range of on especially a "rotary" dimmer, just as in skidding/carving a turn no edge to some edge to alot of edge and then back again. Some times it works for my students just keep shifting gears until find something that makes a connection with your students.
post #48 of 48
dc,

A couple of thoughts. First it would depend on how much speed control you're looking for. If you just let 'em run, you should be able to do clean edge to edge turns in a single groomer width or less. The point here would be to not take the skis so far out of the fall line and just expect to go warp speed. I think your original problem probably came from wanting to mke slower, controlling round turns. You could finish the turn clean, but to stay within your desired radius and ceep from accelerating too much as you entered he fall line, you were skidding the top of the turn.

The other option is when you are trying to round out the turns more and finish them for speed control. You might want to think about using heavy cross under. When you are on flat skis, between the turns, your stance would be exceptionally low. Then, as you are in the top half of the turn, you should be eggessively extending your legs to put enough pressure on the skis through the top of the turn to decamber them enough to keep the turn radius small. You'l probably need to find a balance point further forward than normal to bend the front of the skis, but not so far forward that when they engage, you go OTB. After you get to the fall line, you should be letting your legs come back under you (getting shorter), to the point that you are crossing over the flat skis when you are as low as you could reasonably be (don't sit down)
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