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How do I tighten the radius of a carved turn? - Page 2

post #31 of 41
Originally Posted by nolo
People are naturally drawn toward shorter turns, which makes them easier for people to learn and practice.
I'm not sure the causality is that cut and dried. I think that statement bears examination.
post #32 of 41
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie
sonja sonja in her first post wanted to know how to CARVE tighter radius turns.

If you skid or chatter it is not a result of the added pressure but a result of the ski not fully holding (for whatever reason).

Same situation with the tail wash issue. ASSUMING the ski continues to hold added pressure against the front of the boot will tighten the radius.

Rick hits it in post 24 also---I just tried to "plain english" it so the newer folks may better understand the concepts.

I think that's a better explaination. It allows for qualification.

Pressure straight down however does not really change the radius of the turn assuming that the ski is holding unless you can compress the snow under the center of the ski. if the ski is holding the center of the ski should be solid in the snow. More pressure I would think might cause the ski to break free.

Pressure only the front of the boot and the shovel will hook up more.

gentle steering will do this as well. Too much steering will cause the tails to skid.

post #33 of 41
dchan- Agreed. Too much steering can break the tail free and skid, re: your cause and effect discussion. What if one adds the shoulders tipping just enough to be parallel with the angle of the slope? My ski director and I were working on this a couple of years ago.

As a drill only we did a gentle traverse and acted as if we were reaching for a boot buckle all through the traverse and came to an uphill stop. Look back and you should see two railroad tracks with no thrown snow. Then we did the oposite direction. After this we linked these traverses together. At the end of the first traverse, (hope I say this right- will try not to leave anything out) we 'get tall' (do not lock knees), hips turned slightly inside the intended arc of the upcoming turn, reach out with downhill arm like a hand shake rather than a pole plant, angulation takes place here with skis carving the turn, upper body verticle, foward pressure, skis describe the turn beautifully, completing the turn knees flex to allow skis to come back under you, shoulders tip to parallel the hill angle, repeat the process for the next turn. This controls the speed throughout the turn rather than Zee-ing at the end of the turn.

I seemed to have picked this up right away. After a few turns I had to come out of my turns because I lost too much speed. Kind of over did it! hehehe. My ski director was extatic! Later we went on to other things. (like getting the hiccup or unweighting out- I guess also called the rainbow effect- in the latest issue of PSIA mag).

Dchan- Am I in the ballpark on this?
post #34 of 41
Sounds about right. Which Boot buckle are you reaching for? Up hill, downhill or both?
post #35 of 41
Originally Posted by jyarddog
Dchan- Am I in the ballpark on this?
I think so but I'm one in a sea of many. : Anyone else have feedback for JYD?
post #36 of 41
Oops! Rats! I'd have failed level II! donwhill buckles.

This is very much like what I do in the classroom once in a while. How to make a peanutbutter sandwich! I have everything on the table. The kids tell me what to do. I do exactly what they say. "Frist ya put the bread on the plate." So..... I pick up the loaf of bread and put it on the plate. Tons of giggles and Nooooooo's! We finally get a couple of slices of bread on the plate 5 mins later. "Then ya put the peanutbutter on the bread." So...... i put the jar of peanutbutter right on top of the bread! "Nooooooooo!" giggle, giggle, giggles! i.e. Don't assume! Right?
post #37 of 41
Short radius turns carved well on the icy steep are an artform that not many can do. True many intermediate or advanced intermediate skiers will make quicker turns to get off the fall line. A longer turn on steeper terrain means you're hanging in and around the fall line for more time and that scares intermediates - and rightly so. This tells me is that those skiers just aren't ready for that terrain. Ya they can get down it but ... how!?

Long turns on the steep can be run out through a traverse and an extended initiation. Short turns well done on the steep are thigh busters. I do them for exercise - and practise. That is one reason that many skiers will make the long turns even if they are good and capable of making good short turns, there easier on the thighs. Keep the ski moving smoothly on edge through the turn with a combinational transition which also keeps the ski moving forward smoothly into a smooth edge change and subsequent carve. Do 60 of these without stopping - do them smoothly, if I haven't said that enough, no slop turns. Probably after 30 of them you'd like to just bust into some longer radius stuff.

But back to the original question. How to tighten radius. You've got to get into the tips quick and then manage the pressure backward toward the foot and sometimes into the tail. If into the tail, the combinational transition (over/under/up/down) should be such that it gets you back into the tips for the next turn.

Like I read above, define tight. Moderate how far you get into the tips with the desired radius, back off the tips as appropriate for the radius.

Oh yeah, you've got lean and stuff.
post #38 of 41

Still working on MA & C&E

Originally Posted by dchan
I don't see anything wrong with divergance if it is an effect not a cause.
I need a little clarification on this one. How can divergence be a cause?.

Originally Posted by dchan
When you create the divergance in order to turn, usually it's a stepping of the ski. When you are trying to change lines, etc sure, but using a diverging ski to cause the turn shape to change, I don't like thinking of it that way.
you mean it necessitates a stepping of the (new inside) ski?

Originally Posted by dchan
If you tip and steer your inside ski into the turn the other ski should follow it. Tip it and steer the inside ski more and your turn should get smaller. The outside ski should follow the outside ski into the smaller turn. If some divergence happens it's ok but it's more a result or effect, not a cause.
You mean the outside ski should follow the inside ski, right?

What is the divergence an effect of? What would divergence cause?

These are not loaded or trick questions, I promise!
post #39 of 41
If you are using steering and trying to get the skis to diverge in an effort to tighten up a turn generally it means you have to lift the ski and step it over. At least lighten it up a great deal. Try to put weight on your inside ski, put the edge down and then try to move it out. Doesn't happen. So lightening it or lifting it to move it to a diverging position in order to cause the the turn to happen. It's not so much as a cause but the first thing that happens and leads to an effect of being drawn into the turn.

Now if you start at the feet and tip both skis while engaging the new inside edges and you have even weight on both, both skis will turn. By pressuring the shins into the boot toungue done with precision and intent you should be able to make both skis turn at in the same arc (different pressure and steering for each foot) If you happen to get a liitle more pressure on the inside boot shin/tongue, the inside ski may turn a little sharper or initiate a little quicker resulting in a diverging ski. This would be an effect of a proper movement pattern.

Both the cause and effect may produce the same result but the latter would preferred.

post #40 of 41
The simple how the tool works answer to the origional Q is:
Create more edge angle and expose more sidecut so the skis can bend into a shorter radius.

How easy this is depends on one's skill with the key movements of the inside foot/leg to create those increasing edge angles earlier in the turn so that inside ski can lead around the corner and the outside can follow carving cleanly without conflict.

Note, as the turn radius becomes shorter the demands upon the leading inside foot/leg/body half to be more highly skilled become signifigantly more critical to making it all flow.

To Nolo's invite to think deeper.
I like the comparison of each size turns unique demands.

I'll offer that either is harder if its demands exceed the limits of a skier's comfort zone. Most people learn bigger gross movements first, and then learn to refine and apply them with greater efficiency, precision and accuracy. I think less complete carved turns (longer radius) more in the falline on flat terrain are easier to learn first. They offer edge-to-edge transitions that are critical to any carved turns, but require minimal direction change (or need to use existing re-direction habits) and can be learned focusing on simple, but key, order of foot movements. First, creating release and edge change by rolling the outside big toe UP off the snow as fast as possible, and then continuing to lead edging with rolling of that (now inside) foot.

When clean transitions are mastered (yielding carved railroad track turns) further building upon that foundation is avaliable. Turns can be rounded to more complete arcs with longer duration of the edging movements from the feet, enhanced by developing pressure control skills of the legs to enable more aggressive lateral releasing of the CM toward the inside of each next turn to create higher edge angles sooner in the arc.

For someone starting with primarilly skidded turns, I think the natural progression, if skilled precise carving is the desired outcome, is from longer at slower speed, to medium at faster speeds. When precision and accuracy is solid enough to support the requirements of moving quicker while dealing with faster energy buildup, these can be compacted and funneled into shorter and shorter radius turns.

Note that most race programs use GS turns as the primary format to training technical carving skills. Thse are then compacted into SL turns or drawn out for the SG/DH speed events.
post #41 of 41
Dchan- I guess I used the wrong term, using divergence. I thought divergence and teering the inside ski was essentially the same. there are terms used in the past which are no longer used while new terms mean the same as the old ones. If divergence means stepping the inside ski, this is not what I was refering to.
I had noticed and was told one day about this and tried it. Steering the inside ski helps to tighten the turn, but this does not involve lifting the ski off the snow. I sure learned quickly one day that it doesn't take much. Perhaps it's more of a finese type move? it is not the only action involved in the turn, of course, but it seems to aid in the turn process in the arc you want to describe.
The ski does not come off the snow... unless you are eating a hamburger with both hands and you want to wave to a pretty girl down at that next mogul, so you use your ski to wave to her. (This gives you the oportunity to show her your professional crash-and-burn technique).
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