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Accident, JH, Laramie Bowl, 2/24, 1120AM - Page 4

post #91 of 154
chances are very good , since it happened in Jackson hole, thats where the case will be tried.
post #92 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchool
"...beefed up security on the slopes"...yeah, well as we now know (Schiavo) you can't even die without the government being in control so why should we be able to enjoy the peace and freedom of the mountains without the constant prescence of security forces.

What could "beefed-up security" have done in this case? Dive in front of the kid? No, they could have done exactly nothing.
And with your scenario she'd still be dead, but you'd have "beefed-up" security making a ski resort seem like Mid-East peace conference.
O.K., bad idea. What's yours? This incident was no "accident", an unhappy concurrence of fate, but, according to eyewitness accounts herein and elsewhere, a straightline suicide with an innocent victim caught in the crosshairs of idiocy. It seems to me that if the perpetrator had 1) been taught the basic rules of the mountain (the "skier's code", if you will), and 2) been disciplined, or had seen or heard of others being disciplined for violating those rules, whether by the Ski Patrol or by concerned individuals, the frequency and severity of the mayhem that is overwhelming our slopes would decrease.

This thread can either be one of mourning and condolences or motivation and action. We can wring our hands and shake fingers, or do something. That this could have happened to my wife or my child (indeed, we were on that very slope a few weeks prior) provides all the motivation I need to speak up and "stick out"--porcupine--for responsible skiing and boarding.
post #93 of 154
I spoke with what I believe to be a "highly-placed source" yesterday evening.

The young man has not yet been formally charged but "definitely" will be. Law enforcement officials are still preparing details of the prosecution case. Apparently, they feel there's no hurry and they want to make sure the case is as bulletproof as they can possibly make it.

It sounds as if there is still some debate about whether to charge him as an adult or not, although there's a tidal wave of public demand here in Jackson to see him charged as an adult.

I'll post more deatils as they become available.

Bob
post #94 of 154
The Teton Sherrif's dep't are gathering evidence, I got an email from them. I believe they want to get in contact with the person who began this thread, as they are actually a witness, being in the area at the time. I gave them the URL to this thread. I have the email address of the person who contacted me, if anyone has any information that could be useful to them and wants to talk to the dep't about it. PM or email me and I'll share it.
post #95 of 154
Thread Starter 
I started this thread. I heard the accident and turned to see the victim sliding lifelessly down the mountain. I did not see the actual collision and I have previously reported this to the Sheriff's Department. If they are still interested in contacting me they can email me at: young5797@wi.rr.com.
post #96 of 154
Does anyone in JH, MD, or MA have any follow up on this story and the "kid" who committed this crime?
post #97 of 154

JH Collision Fatality

Quote:
Originally Posted by ant
The Teton Sherrif's dep't are gathering evidence...
Was this out-of-control perp ever indicted? As a Juvenile or Adult? This is an aggravated manslaughter case... this punk better not skate on this.

Hank
post #98 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by julie from nz
What an horrific accident. Sounds like a helmet may not have even helped, as it impact must be been massive.

This accident even made my local newspaper in New Zealand, was just a small article, but it was obviously considered newsworthy thousands of miles away.

I just hope some of our local snow boarders and skiers have read it and makes them think, we also have our share of speed freaks on busy trails. Some of the worst offenders I have seen are the international ski teams visiting for training out of season. They start early in the morning but forget to slow down when the public arrives and they are not on their roped off trails. One international skiers came so close to my 10 year old nephew at horrendous speeds, he started crying, froze up , had to be coaxed down to the bottom and would not go near that trail for the rest of the holiday. The trail was called 'Mainstreet' which gives you an idea of how much use it gets by all levels.
I'm not sure how I feel about this. For an inexperienced skier, the "too close" metric is a lot larger than an experienced one. When back East, a buddy and I were doing repeated runs near closing time at Holiday Valley on a blue/black/blue run, carving trail edge to trail edge turns at perhaps 100 kph plus. On one particular run, we were hauling down the trail, and I saw a guy traversing down the icy black section. Since I was in the lead, I gave him a wide berth, passing in back of him by 25 meters or more.

My buddy, who was following, reported at the bottom that the guy saw us zoom past in front of him, wobbled, fell down, lost a ski, and started cursing at us. For this guy, "too close" was halfway across the trail. Personally, I feel very secure when a ski team is weaving their way past me at high speeds, because I know they're way more in control and much safer than the beginner wedging their way across the hill.
post #99 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlb
.

My buddy, who was following, reported at the bottom that the guy saw us zoom past in front of him, wobbled, fell down, lost a ski, and started cursing at us. For this guy, "too close" was halfway across the trail. Personally, I feel very secure when a ski team is weaving their way past me at high speeds, because I know they're way more in control and much safer than the beginner wedging their way across the hill.
I've had this experience, having evidently intimidated someone by my speed, on an expert trail, even though I was not even close and skiing with a high degree of control. I was really amazed and did not at first understand when a ski patroller, whom I knew, approached me because a complaint had been made. I think the complainant was skiiing on a difficult icy trail that was perhaps far too difficult for his or her abilities, was afraid and my speed (I was putting a new pair of race stock super g's through their paces), though not an actual objective threat increased the fear. I'm a fully certified instructor, have skiied for many years and taught and practiced the safety code. High speed is sometimes, in a suitable setting and under appropriate circumstances, part of skiing, in my opinion. So is fear, unfortunately. I don't make a practice of intentionally intimidating people and I go to great lengths to avoid doing so. There's no excuse for skiing out of control and skiing fast close to others is no different since speed itself reduces even an expert skier's time to react. Nevertheless you can't be responsible for another person's psyche.
post #100 of 154

Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoback Hank
Was this out-of-control perp ever indicted? As a Juvenile or Adult? This is an aggravated manslaughter case... this punk better not skate on this.

Hank
Hank (and others),

The legal process is ongoing and I don't care to discuss the particulars of what I know. What I will say is that as far as I know there hasn't been a final determination made yet as to whether or not the kid will be charged as an adult or as a juvenile. Also, I'm pretty sure the case will take place in Jackson. If I have any more pertinent information to relay throughout the summer I'll try and update this thread.

Nate
post #101 of 154
Thanks for the update, Nate. This incident is staying in the minds of many of us, I am certain. I hope things are getting easier to take for all of you affected by this.
post #102 of 154
Thread Starter 
Any update on the status of this investigation?
post #103 of 154
No, things are moving slowly as far as I know. I'll certainly try to keep folks updated when I know anything.

Nate
post #104 of 154

Update

As we approach the 1 year anniversary of this horrible event I'm left with little to say. The only significant update is that the teen has been charged (see here) and will be arragned 3 days after the anniversary of the event. It seems to me a small consolation for all that her friends, family and loved ones have had to endure. I can only hope that some good will come of all of this in the form of increased awareness or something like that.

Ski safe,

Nate
post #105 of 154
Thanks for the update Nate,
Let us hope this kid gets The Maximum 365 days served 65 days up front and one weekend every 3 months for the next 37.5 years. Allows him to have a life, with a strong reminder to follow the rules. Also the case and the sentanced should be mandatory reading for every out of control, or reckless, skier or rider before they get thier ticket back
Oh Yes and that one weekend a month the only TV he gets to watch is home movies and videos of Heather's life before he snuffed it.
post #106 of 154
a year. what a joke for what he did.
post #107 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by ant
a year. what a joke for what he did.
I agree.

He'd learn more if they sentenced to an hour in a locked room with her family...and a baseball bat.
post #108 of 154
This has got to be one of the most important threads I've seen on the forum!!
My most sincere condolences to the friends and family of Heather!

Experiences close to home:
CASE 1
My (17 yrs old) son and I at Copper April 16, 2006
Day one of a week trip.
On our way to lunch at base.
He closely following my line on a wide open blue trail.
Three other people on the trail... one a straightlining boarder.
Boarder took him out and cost him his left ACL. He was out of comission all summer and is now sitting out his cross country season. We never saw what or who hit him. The other couple told us that the boarder never made a single turn.

Case 2
Level 3 instructor friend of mine got taken out during a private lesson on a black diamond trail at our home mountain.
I'm not sure if it was a boarder or skier that hit him.
Shattered hip socket was the result. His student had skied ahead and didn't know what had happened either.
My friend was out all last season after numerous surgeries. (I have my doubts about his ever skiing again.)

During a normal weekend day of instructing at our home mountain it isn't uncommon for me to get hit a time or two by an out of control skier or boarder (usually boarder).

At the risk of hijacking this thread, what can really be done to get the situation under control. The industry suffers. Those injured (or worse) suffer (not to mention their families). At some point laws may get made to ameliorate the situation. We got close to having a skiing helmet law in NJ a few years ago. (A medical doctor's younbg daughter went off the trail and hit her head on a rock. Unfortunately she died.)

Somehow the resort areas need to see that it is their own best interest to get this situation under control. Until that happens we (instructors, patrollers, courtesy patrol, etc,) are only dealing with out-of-controllers on a one by one basis.

•How about the Skier's Responsibility Code brought to life in videos in the lodges or ski rental areas. Show how crashes occur. Show how lives are impacted. Maybe this should be for boneheads after they have been caught. (We wouldn't want to upset the sensibilities of those on vacation).

• How about Courtesy Patrollers with the ability to actually take tickets. Or even file charges.

Funny how the great uphillcapacity we have these days have made the slopes so crowded, Huh?

Do boarders and skiers really belong on the same trails?
(How about at the beginner levels?)

Discipline comes... It comes from within or it comes from without!
I like the from within variety, personally.

More ideas please!
post #109 of 154
What's your home mountain? Maybe you need a new one. That sounds like a lot of carnage.
post #110 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Faye View Post
This has got to be one of the most important threads I've seen on the forum!! ... More ideas please!
In case you haven't already seen them, there are several other threads on Epic with closely related discussion. These include:

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=36828 - Constructive thoughts on the Code ( 4 pages )

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=34375 - Ski areas need to be more responsible ( 3 pages )

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=20999 - Hit and Run from behind. ( 7 pages )

HTH,

Tom / PM
post #111 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhysicsMan View Post
Constructive thoughts on the Code ( 4 pages )
Tom / PM
Tom when I saw this the first thing that I thought of was that line about the "The Code" in Pirates Of The Caribbean movie. Lets see how did that go again, "There only really guidelines" . Look I got put in a hospital for a few days and was not allowed to drive for 5 weeks because another skier hit me from behind going Mach I. I wish I had the answer. A four hour required skiing and snowboarding test/license would probably help.
post #112 of 154

There Needs to Be a Law

The code is nice and it is good advice. Skiers should follow it. But

Hit and run should be against the law. No one should ever leave an injured person having just crashed into them. I hate to see laws passed, but this situation is bull$#it. If it were illegal and prosecuted, word would travel. People would be held accountable and skiers would know the consequences.

The code doesn't cut it. Hit and run is just plain wrong!
post #113 of 154
Yep. Everyone understands that they can't crash into people on the road, but way, WAY too many people think it's acceptable to hit people on the snow. Evidently this thinking extends to leaving the victim in distress after impact.

Something must be done.

Even 'normal' people (ie not drug-crazed IPOD-wearing facially-peirced persons) have got the idea that hitting people on the snow is OK "as long as it's an accident". This awful way of thinking needs to be combatted, strongly.
post #114 of 154
I can understand what a pontentially dangerous job instructing must be when you can be limited to crowded slopes. I was hit side on in a lesson
on a crowded slope and was just following behind the instructor no injury
but from a students perspective I think it is probably safer keep an eye on the surrounding traffic than focus too much on what the instructor is trying to get you to do. Body armour like used by downhill mountain bikers
could help minimize the risk when confined to teaching on crowded slopes.
post #115 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
What's your home mountain? Maybe you need a new one. That sounds like a lot of carnage.
Gotta be Mt. Creek, based on location and description.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Faye View Post
Somehow the resort areas need to see that it is their own best interest to get this situation under control.
.
.
.
More ideas please!
Assuming it is Mt Creek, they cater to that clientel, so I wouldn't expect it to change.
post #116 of 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkMountainSkier View Post
Gotta be Mt. Creek, based on location and description.



Assuming it is Mt Creek, they cater to that clientel, so I wouldn't expect it to change.
My wife was hit by a snowboarder at Mt. Creek, too her right out and snapped both of her poles in half.
post #117 of 154
I totally agree with everyone that something must be done- mandatory lessons for first timers renting or something mandatory for ANYONE buying a seasonpass for the first time- no matter how safe they think they are (including people here)- or much much stricter enforcement by patrol/"ambassadors"- what DO ambassadors do anyway besides wear the big goofy yellow coat (no offense, I just havent seen them do anything but direct traffic at the drop off lot in the morning-correct me if Im wrong). This needs to be done, but at the same time, just playing devils advocate, the first thing on any lift ticket states that skiing is an inherently dangerous sport...People should NOT be skiing out of control and going nuts, but just keep it in the backs of your minds to watch out. Sometimes theres nothing you can do, i.e. a straightlining 14 year old, but sometimes we can maybe be a little more conscious of our whereabouts (whether at Mt Creek or Ski Cooper or backcountry at Alta). Just a little devils advocate
post #118 of 154
At Mountain Creek the "ambassadors" are now called Mountain Services and no longer patrol the parking lot. We're now a sub-division of ski patrol, out there skiing on the mountain all day, and can and do pull tickets.

Collisions on overcrowded slopes are a big problem, here, there and everywhere. I'd love it if there were "Know the Code" billboards appeared on lift towers and were printed on every cafeteria napkin. It would be nice if kids camps made learning the code part of the program too. There oughta be a law in every state.
post #119 of 154
Sorry. totally disagree with concept of mandatory lessons or anything that approaches a license to ski/board. Part of the problem is that this sport has been sold as a sort of ride at disney. it is not.

do think that more obvious marketing of the code is a good idea. the lift ticket window would be a great place to put in your face info on the code while people are standing in line.
post #120 of 154
Personally I think you have to go after the hit-ter when things happen. That said if there is room mountains should try and segregate learners and lessons from general population.

I agree about this topic - friend of mine had a broken clavicle thanks to an out of control skier overtaking him.

Personally when I was learning to board (I'm still novice level) I was taken out by someone overtaking me - we kind of turned into eachother. Luckily no serious injuries.

Collisions have to be one of the worst and growing problems. It's why I rarely ski at Wachusett at night or on weekends - too much hotdogging crap going on in the crowded conditions.
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