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Time Warp

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
Im developing a segment for part of a clinic and could use some expert advice. I would like to know if the heart of this seemingly wacky excersize has merit. How does this sound for developing a feeling for proper hip positions while we ski? Staying stacked/staying appropriately tall and refining overall stance should help us achieve smoother transitions if we move our hips appropriately. (bkgnd;for those of you that remember Rocky Horror Picture Show, The Time Warp was one of those wacky musical #s. I modified it a bit)

Lets do the time warp again (say it)
Its just a jump to the left, then a step to the right. (do it)
put your hands on your hips (do it)
you keep your knees upright (do it)
then move your pelvis 'round (do it)
and pretty soon youll ski without falling down (say it)
Lets do the time warp again (say it)

This is extremely wacky, but picture the actual clinic, where we focus on loosening up the hips by rotating them around and around. Imagine a clock facing the sky around our hips (like the rings of Saturn around the planet) and focus on a few key hours. above each number on our clock is a green light. The only # that does not have a green light is 6:00 which we will imagine has a red light, and is right behind us. (12 directly in front) Rotate your hips past 12, to 1. past 3, past 6, past 9 and 11 then back to 12. The lights turn on and off as you pass each number. (maybe a buzzer goes off at the 6) keep rotating and call out a number for your group to stop at for 2 seconds. the numbers will be symbolic of (approximate) hip position going into a new turn.

"stooooppp attttt...11. (talk about moving into the new turn, illustrate what happens when you flatten your skis and move into the new turn....the tips start sliding downhill in the right direction) ok, keep going. stop at....1.(talk about your hips being a bucket full of water, keep them level and up at 11&1 and you wont spill the water, if you let them come back to 6, you tilt your pelvis and the water spills out. [not my pelvis/water idea, saw it here on epic]) ok, keep rotating again. stop at 12. Now, I find 12 particularly interesting, dont you?"

now stop at 6. (talk about the back seat, heels of the foot, rear weight bias, etc). get back into a good position by rotating up and around to 11 or 1

now that we are loosened up (so to speak) picture the one oclock and 11 oclock positions as you ski, and ski into each turn with your hips. Embrace each new turn by opening to it with your hands as if you were about to give it a giant hug!

Whew, Im spent!


I think this would work well with pivot slips, too, even RR track turns.

We need some counter in our skiing, hence the giant hug. if we take it all out, we will loose our tails! (said groucho marks style....."not that getting some tail now and again would hoit ya"

Seriously, though. This helped me focus on keeping my hips up and leading into each new turn. I was not breaking at the hips anymore. Now, the steeper it gets and the faster I go, if Im leading with the hips (especially that inside one) Its like.......well, you know. even better than, well you know.

Theres an old PSIA mantra that is seldom repeated....F&*^k your turns don't s*&^t them!
post #2 of 29
ummmm - I dunno if you did that to me in a lesson I don't think I would be back again....

& (despite the fact that I learnt a bit using "positions" until we worked out the catch of learning position & went for feel) I have a great dislike for learning a "position" that is the same for everyone.... I much prefer learning how certain hip positions block movement & others open it - then when you ski into a blocked position you can remember how it feels & fix it.... rather than having a set of "poses" that may be biomechanically incorrect for the body using them....
post #3 of 29
I think moving the hip toward the the 10-11 and 1-2 clockface direction and the bucket imaging are OK. I don't like the rotational thought. You could maybe talk about a side/forward hip swing. I especially don't like the "old PSIA mantra" and Groucho things. They're inappropriate for a clinic.
post #4 of 29
Uh-oh. Yesterday in class I mentioned the sweet spot. One of my students said, misunderstanding me through her helmet: Did you say the G-Spot???? I laughed and said, that works too. Then I told her about Bob Barnes's stance animation where he shows a stick figure in sideways silhouette doing the motions of skiing. As he speeds up the animation, it becomes quite hilarious, as the stick figure looks more and more like he's doing, well, you know. We decided that the forward thrust of the pelvis that releases/engages the edges (and takes us to the sweet spot) is the sexiest part of skiing.

That's teaching for transfer, isn't it?
post #5 of 29
Excuse me.....I'd like to see a manager or the ski school director for a refund.
post #6 of 29
Oh, c'mon ,SIDECUT. I thought you wanted to be entertained? How better then a song and dance routine? lol
post #7 of 29
Thread Starter 

Honestly!

thanks, guys. I would not use the time warp on students either....or in a clinic. and definitely NOT at the exam, for sure. It was more a mental exercise.....

Ive been using hip rotations as a warm up to help separate upper/lower body and loosen up hip joints....maybe that is where this whole thing should stay.

This is another reason Im glad we have this forum. (try it here conceptually, rather than on students or peers) I know there is some valid things going on here, and Im trying to pinpoint what they are.

Disski said:
"I have a great dislike for learning a "position" that is the same for everyone.... I much prefer learning how certain hip positions block movement & others open it - then when you ski into a blocked position you can remember how it feels & fix it.... rather than having a set of "poses" that may be biomechanically incorrect for the body using them...."

That rings true, and posing leads to parking and riding, etc....good point

Kneale said:
"I think moving the hip toward the the 10-11 and 1-2 clockface direction and the bucket imaging are OK. I don't like the rotational thought. You could maybe talk about a side/forward hip swing. I especially don't like the "old PSIA mantra" and Groucho things. They're inappropriate for a clinic."

The rotational movements would take you out of the direction of your turns at times, right? not a good thing. I think this is going to be more of a warm up for loosening the hip joints, etc and will be done before any skiing takes place.

•while standing there, focus on a fore-agonal hip swing in the direction of 10-11 and 1-2. areas (Ill call them areas, not positions)


Nolo said:
"Uh-oh. Yesterday in class I mentioned the sweet spot. One of my students said, misunderstanding me through her helmet: Did you say the G-Spot????"

good sense of humor, Nolo.


Its good to see what does not work as well as what does. I had my doubts about this one (I can reassure you all, the time warp would never have been used, nor the off color remarks....)
I also had pictured the hip rotations as a stationary exercise for warm up and as a concept....but when taking it into skiing.....Thats where I needed some direction. I appreciate your thoughts Kneale and Disski. It helps pare it down to a workable exercise, whatever that ends up being.

Ill have to go try it out this weekend (on my own) with the focus on
more of a warm up for loosening the hip joints, and before any skiing takes place.
• while standing, for warm up, move your hips like a hoola hoop.
•while standing, focus on a fore-agonal hip swing in the direction of 10-11 and 1-2. areas.
•while skiing, focus on leading into the turn with your hips....(feel the crossover/cross under and stay supple throughout)
•keep the new turn in sight.


Ill build on it from there if possible. If not, its a good warm up..


thanks guys!
post #8 of 29
Sounds like something you might want to try out along with rolling joints, but er, ah, um, does you ski school aprove of that sort of thing?
post #9 of 29
just re "hip movement" in general....

(I am 5'2" instructor is 6'3" - sort of sets the scene)....

When they just could NOT get me to move my hips at all (besides down to snow at rear) my instructor did this with me....

he stood uphill of me (I guess he had location well pegged before this) & told me to sit on his knee(leg was bent) .... I was huh? : ... he insisted - I did..... then we repeated SLOWLY & he pointed out how in order to "sit down" I had LIFTED my hip & moved it sideways.... this indicated I was quite able to move my hips.... then I had no excuse re being stiff with them in my skiing - they are quite capable of movement.... (his knee would have been about bar stool heigth for me - so just that bit higher than level)

It was about the same time my other instructor had me skiing around pulling on my pants at hip level to make the hips move....

Sometimes the weirdest "trick" works - when it seems it should not
post #10 of 29
Thread Starter 

Hip movements

Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
(I am 5'2" instructor is 6'3" - sort of sets the scene)....

When they just could NOT get me to move my hips at all (besides down to snow at rear) my instructor did this with me....
You mean into the back seat as it were? I am picturing you primarily bending your knee as if you were about to sit in a chair. I think this move is common for many skiers, even good ones. It takes us away from the flow of our skiing, and in the opposite direction of our next turn....So then he had you do the following...
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
he stood uphill of me (I guess he had location well pegged before this) & told me to sit on his knee(leg was bent) .... I was huh? : ... he insisted - I did..... then we repeated SLOWLY & he pointed out how in order to "sit down" I had LIFTED my hip & moved it sideways....
Was his leg just bent slightly, or was he kneeling down (proposal style)? Did you move sort of forward for this, or sit down, and back like sitting in a chair?
The reason I ask (besides trying to understand his exercise, and get a visual) is to see which direction uphill he had you move. (I also understand that to have you do that in a downhill direction would have caused a pile-up)

Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
this indicated I was quite able to move my hips.... then I had no excuse re being stiff with them in my skiing - they are quite capable of movement.... (his knee would have been about bar stool heigth for me - so just that bit higher than level)
So, a little higher than level to your hips, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
It was about the same time my other instructor had me skiing around pulling on my pants at hip level to make the hips move....
In a downhill/diagonal direction toward the new turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
Sometimes the weirdest "trick" works - when it seems it should not
Amen

Thanks, Disski. Im looking for a well rounded picture of this whole area and I know it is important to move our belly buttons in the right direction from turn to turn. (our skis take a wider path than our bellybuttons as they swing wider than our bodies. Our hips play a big part in keeping everything flowing and lined up.....Im still working on the other details...CM threads noted)
post #11 of 29
jpski, someone posted in another thread here recently about an exercise for a student to feel moving A HIP forward. Their practice was to put a palm near a hip bone and have the student move the hip bone toward the palm. I've been using this ever since but I put my ski pole hand grip near the hip bone and have them move that bone toward the pole grip. Then I put the grip on the bone and have them push against it while I hold it with slight tension. Gets them to feel the tension/twist they need to move an inside hip forward.
post #12 of 29
Thread Starter 

A Hip

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson
an exercise for a student to feel moving A HIP forward.
Thanks, Kneale. So do you use this on a flat section? Im assuming its to get them to move across the skis in the right direction (10-11:00/1-2:00 oclock areas) is this a static only exercise to get them to feel the movement?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson
I put my ski pole hand grip near the hip bone and have them move that bone toward the pole grip. Then I ...have them push against it while I hold it with slight tension. Gets them to feel the tension/twist they need to move an inside hip forward.
What kind of twist? a forward twist of the outside hip which is how to control tip lead?... wait! I think I figured part of that out as I was typing it!
post #13 of 29
Yes jp-ski - I ahd to move hip UP & forward to "sit on the chair" he provided.... this was to represent the furthest range of travel of my hip.... (he has a very good eye for alignment & had already had me do many in & out of boot exercises as he readjusted my boots - with a knife at one point... so i guess he had a pretty good idea where I could/should reach comfortably)

We did it each way - so i could "feel" what each extreme was - then he explained I needed to move between them.....& a basic of how hips help/hinder my skiing

The other instructor had me "pull on pants at hips" to provide some feedback on where hip was - if it did not move the far side of pants would get tight & tell me I had not moved....

Once they had me moving hips (YAY success) the first instructor would spend time showing me the results of positions I would use - so i could remember that certain positions blocked angulation (for example) by remembering HOW it FELT to be blocked.... ie he would wait for me to have the problem then show me WHY it was a problem & let me have a SLOW feel of WHY that part caused a problem.... That left me much more able to adjust hip position on the fly - rather than ski a set position for each side....(Very likely for me - because I find it very hard to control a slow movement & much easier to learn a position)
post #14 of 29
It's a forward twist of the inside hip bone. I do this static, standing where we can then slide comfortably and the student can immediately try to get the same feeling of moving the inside hip forward while turning.
post #15 of 29
feels like both hips rotating to me.... one rotates up & forward while the other rotates down & back - just the same as when I walk
post #16 of 29
Thread Starter 

control tip lead

Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
feels like both hips rotating to me.... one rotates up & forward while the other rotates down & back - just the same as when I walk
I have been working on this all season with a fair amount of success. I Think about controlling tip lead with my hips.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson
It's a forward twist of the inside hip bone
yeah, like that.


If "one hip is rotating down and back" Im assuming the outside one, check the amount of your tip lead. you may be adding TOO MUCH counter. You may be "sitting" a bit as well. (I only know these things from direct experience!) You may not be doing any of these things....but it has helped me a great deal to think about where these movements are coming from, and how to adjust them on the fly. Anyway, I have found that over countering causes blocking the next turn with your downhill ski which you then have to get up and over to start the next turn. Its easy to then overcompensate by not countering. Then you might over rotate the upper body a bit ending the turn too much and too far. (again, from direct experience!)Even if you are out of alignment a little bit, your transitions will be somewhat stilted, and give you that uneasy feeling between turns. sort of a disconnected feeling. By standing tall, leading with the (inside) hip and really letting the skis arc their paths beneath you, the dance begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
That left me much more able to adjust hip position on the fly - rather than ski a set position for each side....(Very likely for me - because I find it very hard to control a slow movement & much easier to learn a position)
I think as you identify and isolate these movements you become more comfy with them, and as they start to blend together, you will find a nice flow to your turns. just by getting the hips moving, your are beginning to really dance with the mountain!

thanks for your feedback, all!
post #17 of 29
No hip goes down & back because BOTH CANNOT LEAD.... in order for the other hip to come up & forward the opposing side must then rotate down & back somewhat....

Go for a brisk walk where you stride out & concentrate on what your hips do - they quite naturally rotate with the leg reaching forward having its hip rotate forward & up (gives leg clearance to travel through) & then on heel strike it travels back under(so down & back) as you transfer weight across it.... Better still follow a young girl with good curves down the road & watch her hips

Just a side note - I have noticed that older people seem to have a tendency to rotate hips a bit less - is this one reason they tend to be prone to falls? They lose the hip movement & kind of just shuffle the legs & feet
post #18 of 29
Thread Starter 

Now I get it

Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
No hip goes down & back because BOTH CANNOT LEAD.... in order for the other hip to come up & forward the opposing side must then rotate down & back somewhat....

Go for a brisk walk where you stride out & concentrate on what your hips do - they quite naturally rotate with the leg reaching forward having its hip rotate forward & up (gives leg clearance to travel through) & then on heel strike it travels back under(so down & back) as you transfer weight across it.... Better still follow a young girl with good curves down the road & watch her hips

Just a side note - I have noticed that older people seem to have a tendency to rotate hips a bit less - is this one reason they tend to be prone to falls? They lose the hip movement & kind of just shuffle the legs & feet
Ah, yes. now I get it. Its like when we walk, there is a combination of movements that is similar to when we go from turn to turn while skiing. Its a "skill blend" sort of move. In order to stay lined up, the hips have to continually come forward and go back appropriately (to slope/turnshape/counter, etc)

thanks Disski!
post #19 of 29
Yes - that is it - you must time the rotation to match slope & turn etc.... just as you must time the hip move when you walk....
If you activate the core then it becpmes more natural - that is why Philay(man from Oz) suggests Pilates for off season training
post #20 of 29
Thread Starter 

Thanks, Disski

This is another area coming into more focus for me as I prep for level 2 teaching (east).

My goal for the exam is to keep things simple. The challenging part for me is working through the vast amounts of important and unimportant ideas and to distill everything down to simple language that makes sense. You folks have kept me on track and introduced me to new ideas I could never have gotten from my mountain or skiing buddies.
this forum is great!

thanks guys and gals
post #21 of 29
That's OK - but I am no instructor.... just a skier with a disability that needs to learn it ALL the HARD way..... if you can think of a totally obtuse stupid way to need to learn - I probably use it....

My first instructor described getting a busload of Malaysian Computer programmers to teach as like getting a busload of me....

I am lucky - with one notable exception I have managed to get GREAT instructors.... I have walked on a couple of lessons though
post #22 of 29
Thread Starter 

perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
That's OK - but I am no instructor....
Your insights are all the more important, then. thanks for your thoughts on this
post #23 of 29
yep - ultimate ski lesson consumer - up to 70 privates a season....: but I'm on a withdrawal program
post #24 of 29
Thread Starter 

Wow, how long is your season?

Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
yep - ultimate ski lesson consumer - up to 70 privates a season....: but I'm on a withdrawal program

Welllllll, why go through withdrawl? Go to your favorite mountain (not the biggest, but the favorite) and talk to the Snowsports director about wearing their colors.....most mountains give weekly clinics to their instructors, and hey, every mountain needs more good instructors!
post #25 of 29
ummm - don't have to ask really - the trainers keep asking me if I want to do it (they suggest I should - they like my turns & I ask stupid questions all the time).....

I just don't really see that the working conditions are that great (bad pay & only per hour of work the ski hill GIVES you) & costs are high....
To put it simply I feel I would be better served spending 2 years getting a physiotherapy degree & then working at ski resorts than being an instructor....

I already ski with 2 of the trainers from the local hill & don't really want to ski with most of the rest.... (I think I already have the cream of the crop) .... I am a VERY fussy student....
Also in those exams that require 1 ski skiing I would struggle - because I cannot balance on 1 leg due to disability....(Same reason Diana from Harb gave up on me - they say I cannot ski because I can't stand on 1 leg... any instructors I ski with disagree - but are surpirsed at my poor standard of 1 ski skiing)

We are working on decreasing my reliance on instructors - making me believe that I REALLY do ski as well as the guys tell me.... They have taken to assessing my skiing on the basis of how I would do on instructor exams - my next aim is to get up to standard to pass the exams I would be at a stage of if I did them....
post #26 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpski
This is another area coming into more focus for me as I prep for level 2 teaching (east).

My goal for the exam is to keep things simple. The challenging part for me is working through the vast amounts of important and unimportant ideas and to distill everything down to simple language that makes sense. You folks have kept me on track and introduced me to new ideas I could never have gotten from my mountain or skiing buddies.
this forum is great!
FWIW, for PSIA-RM, the keys are:
  1. SMIM (single most important movement)
  2. Goal (pick one, and build your plan to get to it)
  3. Keep it moving (talk little, move a lot)
  4. Be clear (avoid jargon, technical terms)
YMMV in different regions. Here in RM, we are asked to guide our group through the lesson that we "did" with the student that we watched on video (picture yourself telling your fellow instructors how you addressed the students' needs). Starting this year, we do this twice, once with an adult, once with a child. All of the examiners emphasized that our objective should be to simply show them what we do when we're teaching.
post #27 of 29
Thread Starter 

Great advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
FWIW, for PSIA-RM, the keys are:
  1. SMIM (single most important movement)
  2. Goal (pick one, and build your plan to get to it)
  3. Keep it moving (talk little, move a lot)
  4. Be clear (avoid jargon, technical terms)
YMMV in different regions. Here in RM, we are asked to guide our group through the lesson that we "did" with the student that we watched on video (picture yourself telling your fellow instructors how you addressed the students' needs). Starting this year, we do this twice, once with an adult, once with a child. All of the examiners emphasized that our objective should be to simply show them what we do when we're teaching.
The format is different here in the east. I think your region is ahead of the curve with regard to Real World situations. The exams here are to gauge you knowledge but with coaching sessions(given to your peers as to what you would do with your students), written exams, on hill interviews, and chairlift ride professional knowledge interviews as the mediums. Real world actual lesson situations, except in concept and theory, do not really come into play. Im not complaining. I need to get comfy in front of my peers, build my knowledge base, sharpen my MA skills, etc. The whole process including prepping for and taking the exam have changed the way I approach a lesson, and it is definitely for the students benefit. With that said, I would like to see more real world situations worked in. (I dont have any suggestions, though, either)


I think your key mantra list above is great and difinitely applies to our region as well. Im printing it out as we speak (er, pound the keyboard)

thanks!
post #28 of 29
jpski, FWIW, it doesn't really sound that different, other than our using video. We watch the "students" as a group in the morning, and take notes in the Guest Centered Teaching grid. Then, we head out on-snow. There, we are interviewed by the examiner about our observations made from the video (identifying the students understanding, motivation, and movements), our objective/goal for the lesson, and some basic thoughts on how we'll approach achieving that goal. Once at the top of the lift, we proceed to brief our fellow instructors (limited recitation of our identification) and tell them our approach to the goal. We say it, do it, say it, do it until we're done. In our case, with the adult, we had 15 minutes to say it/do it.

I did my best to keep it moving. We'd stop for just a minute. I'd say what I was looking for and what I'd do next, give the examiner (or others) a chance to ask anything, then head out on the next exercise/drill/skiing.
post #29 of 29
Thread Starter 

not that different

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
jpski, FWIW, it doesn't really sound that different, other than our using video. We watch the "students" as a group in the morning, and take notes in the Guest Centered Teaching grid. Then, we head out on-snow. There, we are interviewed by the examiner about our observations made from the video (identifying the students understanding, motivation, and movements), our objective/goal for the lesson, and some basic thoughts on how we'll approach achieving that goal. Once at the top of the lift, we proceed to brief our fellow instructors (limited recitation of our identification) and tell them our approach to the goal. We say it, do it, say it, do it until we're done. In our case, with the adult, we had 15 minutes to say it/do it.
How would you describe the overall vibe from the examiners while taking the exam?

Whats a GCT grid?

Thanks, ssh
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