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Back to wedge basics: Rotation, do we need it? - Page 5

post #121 of 142
John, I have to ask a question. If the tails leave a straight track and the tips are steered to one side and then another, wouldn't that mean that the pivot point would be back at the tails which are moving in straight line? What's wrong with the pivot point being under the feet, with equal displacement? Later, Ricb.
post #122 of 142
John, I get what you mean... My question was more than a little tongue-in-cheek and came from an exam I took last year. After my first wedge christie demo, the examiner "corrected" my maneuver by telling me to "start the wedge by brushing out both tails, then transfer weight to the outside ski and use the edge to maintain your speed." Needless to say, I did what he asked, but I also know that it's not the maneuver that PSIA-RM intended...
post #123 of 142

Tip Is The Pivot point

Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
John, I have to ask a question. If the tails leave a straight track and the tips are steered to one side and then another, wouldn't that mean that the pivot point would be back at the tails which are moving in straight line? What's wrong with the pivot point being under the feet, with equal displacement? Later, Ricb.
Actually not at all since the tails are, well tails. The pivot point is theoretically at the tip and the tip is far enough away from the tails, done corectly, the tails have very minimal displacement. I said it is difficult to have no displacement but only a very close eye will see it! Key is light cuff pressure and soft and not a big movement with the tip of the skis and in particular when diverging or going to the outside of the fall line.

I understand what your question and the best thing to do is try it for yourself. Great exercise for beginners to key in on steering and not pushing. If the tails were a fixed point I would agree.

John
post #124 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Cole
Actually not at all since the tails are, well tails. The pivot point is theoretically at the tip and the tip is far enough away from the tails, done corectly, the tails have very minimal displacement. I said it is difficult to have no displacement but only a very close eye will see it! Key is light cuff pressure and soft and not a big movement with the tip of the skis and in particular when diverging or going to the outside of the fall line.

I understand what your question and the best thing to do is try it for yourself. Great exercise for beginners to key in on steering and not pushing. If the tails were a fixed point I would agree.

John
John,
Still a bit confused from your posts...You said before that you were moving the tips in and out and the tails tracked straight and here you say that the "theoretical pivot point" is around the tips. Tell me how you can possibly pivot around your tips and not displace your tails or move your tips in and out.

Your statements are very confusing and inaccurate. A good wedge from a straight run should show the width of stance not change while the tips move closer and the tails move apart demonstrating a pivot about the feet.
post #125 of 142

TGIF (Tips Go In First)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman
John,
Still a bit confused from your posts...You said before that you were moving the tips in and out and the tails tracked straight and here you say that the "theoretical pivot point" is around the tips. Tell me how you can possibly pivot around your tips and not displace your tails or move your tips in and out.

Your statements are very confusing and inaccurate. A good wedge from a straight run should show the width of stance not change while the tips move closer and the tails move apart demonstrating a pivot about the feet.
Difficult to explain an hour glass and I sure can't draw it with the computer so you will need to go to the snow sometime and try it. I am assuming you can visualize what an hour class would look like on the snow.

What is lost in this translation is a comment in a previous post on pushing out the heels in a wedge. Wrong approach to teaching a new skier. Teach the skier to steer the tips in and out in and hour glass shape. The pivot point is directly under your feet, give or take, and the tails, if done correctly will not displace but follow the fall line. Telling the skier to "pivot" the tips or "steer" the tips in and out of the fall line works quite nicely. If the tails displace you are on your heels and you will feel and or see the tails push out. The skis are flat in a minimal wedge shape, almost parallel; the shape we all should teach from when teaching a wedge. This was the only point to the post. Before you ask, the hour class in the snow is not wiped out by following tails because they are flat and when you steer the tip in and out, the steering creates a slight edge in the tip area drawing your hour class and the tail is far enough away not to be an eraser.

This is why I always say "Skiing is as simple as going downhill and turning feet" and others write books about doing instead of thinking and get rich.

John
post #126 of 142
Consider how you would increase the width of your stance while skiing parallel. Would you rock back onto your heels and push them out? No. you stand w/ your weight centered fore and aft on the skis and move your feet apart, exactly the way you would do it while in a gliding wedge. Consider also that, contrary to what some have said here, you are not attempting to teach some peculiar maneuver unique to this level. Instead you are attempting to teach skills and movements that will be useful in upper level skiing but present them in a way that is appropriate to the skill level and needs of the begimnning skier. A primary function of the wedge is to teach two footed rotary steering/guiding through leg rotation to enable the beginning skier to execute turns of varying radius in order to control speed and direction. Turn the skis from a balancrd stance. The tips will move in while the tails move out and vice versa. Emphasize steering both skis in the direction of the turn. This is the simultaneity that has been referred to elsewhere. This is the encouragement of the active inside half that should be present from the beginning, mot relegated to some remedial work when the skier has become a supposed intermediate.
post #127 of 142
oisin,

Now, your statement makes perfect sense and is in line with good teaching! The wedge, if needed at all, should be a stepping stone that develops parallel initiation movements from the beginning. John Cole's image is confusing and inaccurate to say the least. It reflects a somewhat arbitrary straight run excercise at best and should not be used as an example of good wedge turn mechanics.

John, I can visualize exactly what you are talking about and please realize
1) if your tips go in first "TGIF" as you say, your tails should displace an equal amount which demonstrates a pivot under the foot not the tips or tails.
2)telling a student to "pivot the tips" is confusing how do we "pivot the tips"? Do you mean pivot around the tips (incorrect) or do you mean displace the tips?
3)In any wedge the tails will displace! This is fact. Check your rear view mirror next time you do your exercise. If they do not you are pivoting from your tails.
post #128 of 142
Thread Starter 
1. Yes, pivot point is underneath the foot.
2. Yes, it is confusing. If pivot point is under foot tips and tails will displace according to length of ski in front of pivot point and behind.
3. Yes, tails will displace.

However, I would see the pivoting more as an outcome. The skis pivot underneath your foot as you push your feet slightly apart, engaging the inside edges and gaining advantidge of the shape of the ski. If you want to reduce speed quickly while wedging for example you need to pivot more around your tips by pushing your feet out and thereby increasing your edging. Simply pivoting underneath your feet will not increase effectiveness of the wedge. Same with wedge turning.
post #129 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6
1. Yes, pivot point is underneath the foot.
2. Yes, it is confusing. If pivot point is under foot tips and tails will displace according to length of ski in front of pivot point and behind.
3. Yes, tails will displace.

However, I would see the pivoting more as an outcome. The skis pivot underneath your foot as you push your feet slightly apart, engaging the inside edges and gaining advantidge of the shape of the ski. If you want to reduce speed quickly while wedging for example you need to pivot more around your tips by pushing your feet out and thereby increasing your edging. Simply pivoting underneath your feet will not increase effectiveness of the wedge. Same with wedge turning.
Even if I want to direct the tips of my skis to shape my turn doen't the pivot point still need to be under the feet? How can I get effective leverage on my skis to pivot from the tip, several feet in front of my feet? This would require sideways displacement of both feet in the same direction, or pushing both feet to the outside of turn. Later, RicB.
post #130 of 142
Thread Starter 
You need to have full wedge position alredy at the beginning of the turn. I guess the pivot point is drifting a bit. Its a combination of both.
post #131 of 142
ydnar---
guidig the tip of the ski is very different than hip rotation or pushing the foot outward as you elude to in your Feb. 16 reply. I agree that guiding both skis is important for good skill development.
post #132 of 142

No Tail Push Please

Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
Even if I want to direct the tips of my skis to shape my turn doen't the pivot point still need to be under the feet? How can I get effective leverage on my skis to pivot from the tip, several feet in front of my feet? This would require sideways displacement of both feet in the same direction, or pushing both feet to the outside of turn. Later, RicB.
Pushing is not true and connotates heel push. Go to the slopes and try this before your over think it. Start in a hip width straight run (French fries) with slight pressure on the tongue of both boots (ankles flexed to create tongue touch). SLIGHTLY turn both tips toward each other (SMALL pizza stance), now move SLIDE both skis sideways (flat skis to start with & the side movement will create natural edging) in the opposite direction (sideways split).You wil stop and there should be NO heel pressure. This is not a panic stop but only used to assure student they can stop if they choose, as we move through the next phase of our lesson. Teaching a heel push wedge is what is absolutely wrong with teaching the wedge. Too many instructors teach a defensive (snowplow) wedge. This is why a wedge has a bad name. A true instructing wedge is only a little different than a parallel stance and I emphasize LITTLE. Teaching the skier to use the tip of the ski or "Tips Go In First TGIF" is very important to their future skiing. No heel work please.

John
post #133 of 142
The point is John that if we want to steer the skis effectively it will be from a point under our feet, from the center of the ski. If I want to pivot around the tips it will have to be from foot displacement sideways. If I want to pivot around the tails of the skis there will still be sideways displacment of the feet. Only from the center under our feet do we get displacement of bot tips and tails.

Personaly, I don't teach a breaking wedge. I prefer to never mention the word wedge if I don't have to. With begginers I try to get them standing in the middle of the ski and steering both feet and legs under a quite core. Doesn't matter much to me whether this is in a small wedge or not. It is easy to build from there. Later, RicB.
post #134 of 142
Yeah! RicB, Good thinking in my opinion! Wish more saw it your way.
post #135 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman
Yeah! RicB, Good thinking in my opinion! Wish more saw it your way.
Thanks Bud, but there is nothing original here, just simple fundamentals. Later, RicB.
post #136 of 142
Ski the wedge turn and figure it out!
post #137 of 142
Thread Starter 
Isnt there any videoclips on the www that we could use as wedging ref.?
post #138 of 142
Thread Starter 
Ok, here are some clips of the master at work http://skinow.net/videos.htm
post #139 of 142
From my outlook:

The movement patterns shown in these turns are horrible. I would never want one of my students making these kind of moves, if a student came to me showing this movement pattern I would feel that I would need to change it to keep them from getting stuck at the intermediate stage or becoming an expert at pushing their heels on all terrain.

This is how skiing has been taught for the last fifty years. The equipment has changed, its about time that ski instruction changes to take advantage of the new equipment.

yd
post #140 of 142
Thread Starter 
ydnar, LOL, I feel your pain but something made this guy think it was good enough to post on the www! But he is a PSIA teacher, how are we gonna feel about that? I love the way he says "Im gonna demonstrate to you a wedge into a parallel turn". May I also point out that the video clip text says: "A must se"! LOL, a total rip off I say!
post #141 of 142
John Cole,

I am right there with you on this one. Central's focus on this has caught many instructors relying on bad habits. Clinics early on in the season saved me in my Level II exam and cause me to get out of my old favorite boots for new Heads that allow me to stand straighter and taller.

I think we have over emphasised getting forward too much to the point were many people are over flexed and ramped forward in their boots. (at least I was). I was unable to feel and demonstrate proper rotation of the get to obtain a wedge stance from the hip socket down. However, it is much better now and I have been able to stop the push in many of my students.

Ed
post #142 of 142
Thread Starter 
Powdigger - yes, I too used to be rampped and flexed too far forwards. I had my stance adjusted back in 1989. This is a very touchy topic at the moment since modern race techinque is calling for a lot of forwards leaning. By standing more straight up we get a better feel for the sweet spot and the edges over the whole length of our skis and its easier to stay in balance. G-forse is also better transmitted into forwards movement if we stand straight up.
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