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Back to wedge basics: Rotation, do we need it?

post #1 of 142
Thread Starter 
Without being too scientific... when and why do we need rotation?

In the following example we dont apply any rotational force:
- If we wedge straight down in the fall line, shift some weight to the left ski we should be turning right.

In the following example we do apply rotational force:
- If we wedge straight down in the fall line, shift some weight to the left ski and apply strong rotation to our upper body in the middle of the turn we should be turning right with a stronger motion than in the pervios example. However, at the end of the turn we would be facing almost up hill insted of standing slightly countered ready for the next turn.

Any opinionos?
post #2 of 142
tdk6,

Given your scenerio the answer would be that rotation would not be needed, would in fact be a detremental. The problem that arises though is that teaching a weight shift turn to a first timer produces too many negative results such as pushing on the ski to turn, being stuck in a wedge for too long, a hard to lose stem entry, etc. These all stem from the fact that the weight shift at this level is a negative move that will result in a braking style of skiing.

The basic move in a wedge that will result in a skier who will not have to unlearn negative movements is actively flattening the right ski to go right and the left ski to go left combined with pointing of that foot to the right or left. In this scenerio rotary indeed does play a significant role but it is a rotary move of the foot which will lead to accurate use and blending of rotary skill as the skier progresses.

yd
post #3 of 142
To ydnar's description, add moving the center of mass to the direction of the turn by slightly extending the new outside leg and slightly shortening the new inside leg. This will help tip the outside ski engaging its edge while enhancing the flattening the inside ski.

If you twist the outside ankle into the turn it helps the turn develop quicker. Then use a twist of the inside ankle to keep the tips from touching. This helps develop lead change during the turn. It also starts the use of an active inside ski to help shape the turn.
post #4 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6
In the following example we dont apply any rotational force:
- If we wedge straight down in the fall line, shift some weight to the left ski we should be turning right.
You've already applied rotational force. To form the wedge, you must ROTATE both feet/legs inward to form the wedge position.
post #5 of 142
In wedge turns like parellel turns, leg rotation is needed to guide the skis along a desired path. The rotation should be guiding the tip of the outside ski toward the tip of the inside ski. That guidence also allows for some skidding which is necessary to negotiate steeper novist slopes where only edge and pressure makes the skiier an un-guided missle. A blending of skills is necessary for all skiers, ie. balance. Leg rotation alows the skiier to move with the ski and not against the ski.
post #6 of 142
Ron,

I have to disagree very strongly with the advice to guide the tip of the outside ski toward the tip of the inside ski. This will result in a bigger wedge to start the turn, possibly crossing of the tips, hip rotation, movement of the hips toward the outside ski, a stem entry as the student trys to become parallel, and more. A focus on guiding the inside ski (right point right to go right,etc) can avoid many of these problems.

yd
post #7 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by ydnar
A focus on guiding the inside ski (right point right to go right,etc) can avoid many of these problems.
Not only that, but it also encourages us to ski more parallel. If we have to rotate our feet inward to make the wedge, we cannot (easily) maintain this orientation if we are focusing on turning the inside ski the way we want to go (the opposite direction of making the wedge) throughout the turn.
post #8 of 142
I have to say I'm a bit confused by the original post. You say that we don't apply any rotational force if we wedge straight down the fall line. You can't make a wedge without femur rotation.

In the second example, you talk about striong rotational force of the upper body to turn the skis.

Therefore, I'm assuming you are referring to upper body roration.

If so, I would say NEVER. I would also disagree strongly with the second statement, to apply strong rotational force with the upper body to turn the skis. That's the last thing you want to do. We add edge angle, pressure and femur rotation to guide the skis through a tighter arc if we want to turn more.
post #9 of 142
I think you are assuming that the only type of rotation is upper body rotation. There is very little upper body rotation in wedge turns and dynamic parrallel turns. Most of the rotation that we refer to in today's skiing is rotation of the femur in the hip socket. The inside ski is definitely rotated in a wedge turn.
post #10 of 142
Thread Starter 
Thanks guys for the good input here. And for keeping this simple. I have learned something new here although I have been teaching 10y.

- By allowing the skis to form a wedge I automaticly give way to rotation of the femur in the hip socket.

So this is what some ref. to as rotation. I have allways thaught of rotation as rotation of the upper body and hipps. I need to separate these two from each other. So my way of teaching beginners to turn in a wedge is by rotation of the femurs into a wedge position, both skiis skidding eaqually at slow speed and then shifting weight to the outside ski without mooving anything below waist line. No up and down motion and if I want to make it really tough on myselfe and my students I do that by lifting my inside ski tip just an inch of the snow surface. This will make the wedge turn tighter and give my hipps a good workout.
post #11 of 142
If you can lift the tip of a ski, you're on your heel. You don't want to be there.

How do you form your wedge? By pushing out the heels? Try this: Flex your ankles so that your knees move forward and spread your feet. That'll form a wedge without involving the heel push.

Now, if you roll an arch off the snow, you will flatten that ski and increase the edging of the other ski to augment the turn in the direction of the flattened ski.
post #12 of 142
I agree with Kneale, although I'll clarify his statement and say "roll the arch of the inside foot/ski off the snow".

I also can't agree with "...shifting the weight to the outside ski and not moving anything below the waist..." You don't want to emphasize pressuring too much on the outside ski. Especially to the point of lifting the inside (most definitely not the tip). I would emphasis tipping both skis in the intended direction and then using the legs to steer them that way. Having the skis in a slight wedge will mean (as Kneale said) that the inside ski will come off the inside edge and flatten.

The movements should come from the feet and legs, not from the upper body. If you teach upper body movements at the beginner level, they would need to be corrected as the person gets a bit better, because they would be leaning and rotating, and basically trying to force the skis around using their upper body instead of using the feet and legs.
post #13 of 142
Consider these ponderments.

A straight gliding wedge (tips in/narrower stance vs. tails displaced/wide stance) requires inward rotation of both legs (femurs by adductors). Going straight represents equal resistance from both ski's opposing inside (big toe) edges.

If the edge of the right ski is released by rolling that foot toward it's little toe edge, some positive things happen (even more if it is also lightened and pulled back).

That right leg unwinds as the inward rotation of it's adductors is released and the ski turns (tip out/tail in) to match up with the un-released left ski. This creates a right-tip to go right movement.

The left ski's mechanical steering effect of its big toe edge engagement produces a turning effect to the right, following the released skis turning toward the right.

The hips/pelvis (and body) turn to the right as the left ski's leg unwinds (having lost it's equal and opposite leverage) using it's still engaged edge as a fulcrum.

If the skier has the intent to turn right by releasing and guiding the right ski (to go right) an effective and efficient spontanious christy with an easy matching of the skis results that can be shaped with continued rolling/tipping of the released/leading inside right foot/ski.

This blended result is very different than traditional wedge turns that use ramping up of left ski rotary to overpower the right ski and bulldoze it around the corner. The other signifigant result is the aquisition of movement patterns that will lead to parallel skiing, that the traditional dominant rotary movements of the outside ski never really provided.
post #14 of 142
I agree with ydnar and arc, You must change your thinking of how you make your wedge demos.....

Instead of creating more deflection on the outside ski by ADDing edge, or pressure, or rotation.....Think about DELETING deflection or resistance from the inside ski of your intended turn.

Play with this tactic and watch your demos become silky smooth and your wedge christies happen easier than ever. Then show the rest of your staff what you learned here at Epic!
post #15 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by lshull
Not only that, but it also encourages us to ski more parallel. If we have to rotate our feet inward to make the wedge, we cannot (easily) maintain this orientation if we are focusing on turning the inside ski the way we want to go (the opposite direction of making the wedge) throughout the turn.
Would you apply similar concern to a recommendation to "brush out your tails" to create the wedge?
post #16 of 142
By focusing on tipping and steering the inside ski you are creating movements that lead to dynamic parallel skiing. This is an offensive move in the direction of travel - DOWNHILL. An attempt to start a turn by pressuring the outside ski creates a move in the wrong direction - UPHILL.

Pressure develops on the outside ski due to gravity and centrifugal force - it happens to us and we deal with it.
post #17 of 142
Thread Starter 

Wedge Hammer II

Quote:
Originally Posted by ydnar
Given your scenerio the answer would be that rotation would not be needed, would in fact be a detremental. The problem that arises though is that teaching a weight shift turn to a first timer produces too many negative results such as pushing on the ski to turn, being stuck in a wedge for too long, a hard to lose stem entry, etc. These all stem from the fact that the weight shift at this level is a negative move that will result in a braking style of skiing.

The basic move in a wedge that will result in a skier who will not have to unlearn negative movements is actively flattening the right ski to go right and the left ski to go left combined with pointing of that foot to the right or left. In this scenerio rotary indeed does play a significant role but it is a rotary move of the foot which will lead to accurate use and blending of rotary skill as the skier progresses.
Maybe you misunderstood me in my opening post. First of all I dont think weight shifting is a negative movement at any level, its the foundation for turning IMHO, but flattening the right ski has its time and place once we know that shifting some weight to the left ski will start our turn right. I too use the flattening of the ski but that as we progress to the phase when we are bringing the skis parallell after a wedged turn. Today I will try this consept on some first timers and let you know what I think.


Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Square
To ydnar's description, add moving the center of mass to the direction of the turn by slightly extending the new outside leg and slightly shortening the new inside leg. This will help tip the outside ski engaging its edge while enhancing the flattening the inside ski.

If you twist the outside ankle into the turn it helps the turn develop quicker. Then use a twist of the inside ankle to keep the tips from touching. This helps develop lead change during the turn. It also starts the use of an active inside ski to help shape the turn.
Yeah, this is a very good point, to extend your outside leg and shorten your inside leg. Activate the inside leg. This is exactly what the exersise with lifting the tip of your inside ski one inch off the snow does. We want to try to make the skis cross underneath us while holding our upper body still and get a good upper/lower body separation. We wount be leaning outwards anymore like in my opening example (maybe slightly) but since pressuring the outside ski is a correct way of skiing I have chosen to teach first timers this path of adding pressure to outside ski.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishull
You've already applied rotational force. To form the wedge, you must ROTATE both feet/legs inward to form the wedge position.
I have given this some thaught. Yes, as I alredy told you guys before I stand corrected on the fact that I have previously missunderstood the word rotation. But on the other hand, this form of rotation is a static rotation of the feet/legs and not a rotational force applyed throughout the turn itself. We actually have two forces working against each other, left and right leg.


3 posts by Ishull, ydnar and Ron! Very interesting.... Cannot comment. I kind of like Rons post. In the simplified context here it makes all sense to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
I have to say I'm a bit confused by the original post. You say that we don't apply any rotational force if we wedge straight down the fall line. You can't make a wedge without femur rotation.

In the second example, you talk about striong rotational force of the upper body to turn the skis.

Therefore, I'm assuming you are referring to upper body roration.

If so, I would say NEVER. I would also disagree strongly with the second statement, to apply strong rotational force with the upper body to turn the skis. That's the last thing you want to do. We add edge angle, pressure and femur rotation to guide the skis through a tighter arc if we want to turn more.
As I told you before, I stand corrected on the rotatio part. I agree with everything. Thanx.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blizzard
I think you are assuming that the only type of rotation is upper body rotation. There is very little upper body rotation in wedge turns and dynamic parrallel turns. Most of the rotation that we refer to in today's skiing is rotation of the femur in the hip socket. The inside ski is definitely rotated in a wedge turn.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson
If you can lift the tip of a ski, you're on your heel. You don't want to be there.

How do you form your wedge? By pushing out the heels? Try this: Flex your ankles so that your knees move forward and spread your feet. That'll form a wedge without involving the heel push.

Now, if you roll an arch off the snow, you will flatten that ski and increase the edging of the other ski to augment the turn in the direction of the flattened ski.
If I lift the right foot ski tip one inch over the snow surface my weight will be distributed between my left foots heel, shin and top part of toes. I bend my left foots knee forward and most of the pressure will be on the shin and not on the heel of the left foot. My right foots weight distribution will be similair only less on every part. Same moove you have on higher level racing like in the WC. Look at Paerson or Neff here: http://www.youcanski.com/english/coa...videoclips.htm

How do I form my wedge? Yes, by pushing out my heels I tink if Im in a closed position and need a faast wedge. But otherwise I just twist my ancles a bit like you suggest. With todays short skis you need to twist your feet a bit because otherwise there will be a hell of a gap between tipps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
I agree with Kneale, although I'll clarify his statement and say "roll the arch of the inside foot/ski off the snow".

I also can't agree with "...shifting the weight to the outside ski and not moving anything below the waist..." You don't want to emphasize pressuring too much on the outside ski. Especially to the point of lifting the inside (most definitely not the tip). I would emphasis tipping both skis in the intended direction and then using the legs to steer them that way. Having the skis in a slight wedge will mean (as Kneale said) that the inside ski will come off the inside edge and flatten.

The movements should come from the feet and legs, not from the upper body. If you teach upper body movements at the beginner level, they would need to be corrected as the person gets a bit better, because they would be leaning and rotating, and basically trying to force the skis around using their upper body instead of using the feet and legs.
Ok John, your time to get wedge hammered only joking. What Im trying to say is that the first stage of turning by a wedge is to stand in a static forward position, going slowly down the fall line and then leaning slightly left with your upper body without mooving your hipps, leggs, feet or ski edge angles. This will cause you to turn right. Try it sometime, it really is an effortless way of turning. Only one thing you have to alter and that is your weight. What you are actually doing is that you are applying more pressure to left ski in comparisson to right and this will make you turn. And believe me, your leggs are doing the work, your upper body the leaning. You could also aply the pressure by lifting the righ inside ski tip in the air. In this case you are not leaning with your upper body. It stays in one place but now you are giving your hipps a workout as well. I have given about 1000 lessons mostly wedging and I have a pritty good record of what works and what doesent. Getting rid of flattening inside ski edges (passive non edging inside legs) are also difficult at a later stage. The main reason for bad turns are still at every level leaning towards the inside of a turn. Not the outside. Thats why I start with the leaning bit.

I agree with you perfectly on the matter of leggs and hipps making all the work and keeping your upper body calm. But just because upper body moves a bit sideways doesent mean that leggs dont do any work.

Picture this: take my opening example and watch carefully. My upper body moves sideways. Lets say that is false. Lets correct it. Lets grab my upper body with king-kongs fist, lift me up and keep me in one place. Ooops, legs are moving but skis are not horisontal with snow all the timel. Only when my skis pass underneath me. This is when the outer leg extention and inner leg retraction comes into the pickture. King-kong puts me down and voilá, perfect carwing sorry wedging.

Funny that nobody has suggested we should have a stong up and down motion while wedging! Good because its completely un-nessesary.

Arcmeister - cannot really comment. Its all true what you say, I just use a slightly different approach.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud heishman
I agree with ydnar and arc, You must change your thinking of how you make your wedge demos.....

Instead of creating more deflection on the outside ski by ADDing edge, or pressure, or rotation.....Think about DELETING deflection or resistance from the inside ski of your intended turn.

Play with this tactic and watch your demos become silky smooth and your wedge christies happen easier than ever. Then show the rest of your staff what you learned here at Epic!
I try to make my demos as simple as possible for adults. For 3-5y children you cannot really make any demos you just have to play with them and find out what works at that particular moment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
Quote:
Originally Posted by lshull
Not only that, but it also encourages us to ski more parallel. If we have to rotate our feet inward to make the wedge, we cannot (easily) maintain this orientation if we are focusing on turning the inside ski the way we want to go (the opposite direction of making the wedge) throughout the turn.

Would you apply similar concern to a recommendation to "brush out your tails" to create the wedge?
Yeah Ishull, would you?
post #18 of 142
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blizzard
By focusing on tipping and steering the inside ski you are creating movements that lead to dynamic parallel skiing. This is an offensive move in the direction of travel - DOWNHILL. An attempt to start a turn by pressuring the outside ski creates a move in the wrong direction - UPHILL.

Pressure develops on the outside ski due to gravity and centrifugal force - it happens to us and we deal with it.
Very interesting indeed..... I dont quite follow you here..... Let me aske you this: Why do you think we need to turn while skiing? Is it because we want to go in a different direction or because it looks good? Yes, that too but not entirely because of that! What then? Yes, because we also want to controll our speed. The whole point of turning is braking our speed and staying safe and in controll. And BTW, when we apply pressure to the outside ski or tip it or stear it or them it is to initiate a turn and we head from crossing, traverse position, into the fall line, past it and then we head in the other direction. Before we hit UPHILL we do it in the other direction. By aplying pressure and edge to the outside ski we controll our turn radius both wedging, skidding and carving. Its not only an outcome of centrifugal force.
post #19 of 142
tdk6,

I turn to go where I want to go. Your focus on turning to control speed leads to a braking style of skiing. My speed is controlled by shaping the end of the turn untill, if necessary, I begin to go uphill. Natural friction and drag of the ski interacting with the snow results in my seldom having to actually go back up the hill. Top level skiing is about going not about stopping or slowing down. One of my goals is to ski all day long and never have to use a breaking move,

The weightshift that you are talking about is a negative move in the sense that you want to turn to the right but your first move is one to the left. When I want to go right I want every move I make to be to the right.

Check out the "Teaching weight on the outside ski" thread to better understand the thinking of most of the instructors at Epic on this subject. Simply put we look on the movement of pressure from foot to foot as an outcome of the turn rather than a cause of the turn. You can indeed create a turn by simulating this outcome but that method will lead to problems down the road.

yd
post #20 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by ydnar
tdk6,

I turn to go where I want to go. Your focus on turning to control speed leads to a braking style of skiing. My speed is controlled by shaping the end of the turn untill, if necessary, I begin to go uphill. Natural friction and drag of the ski interacting with the snow results in my seldom having to actually go back up the hill. Top level skiing is about going not about stopping or slowing down. One of my goals is to ski all day long and never have to use a breaking move,

The weightshift that you are talking about is a negative move in the sense that you want to turn to the right but your first move is one to the left. When I want to go right I want every move I make to be to the right.

Check out the "Teaching weight on the outside ski" thread to better understand the thinking of most of the instructors at Epic on this subject. Simply put we look on the movement of pressure from foot to foot as an outcome of the turn rather than a cause of the turn. You can indeed create a turn by simulating this outcome but that method will lead to problems down the road.

yd
ydnar

As usual, very well put and easy to understand.
post #21 of 142
tdk6

I agree with Ydnar. We don't want to turn in a manner that makes our movements feel bracey. We want to be able to FLOW from turn to turn in a way that makes it difficult to differentiate the beginning and end of each turn.

If you move to the uphill ski to initiate a turn you are creating a move that interrupts flow. The flow wants to be continuosly DOWNHILL and FORWARD, in the direction of travel. I too strive for the day that the only time I make bracey (defensive) moves is when I lock evetything up to stop.
post #22 of 142
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ydnar
tdk6,
I turn to go where I want to go. Your focus on turning to control speed leads to a braking style of skiing. My speed is controlled by shaping the end of the turn untill, if necessary, I begin to go uphill. Natural friction and drag of the ski interacting with the snow results in my seldom having to actually go back up the hill. Top level skiing is about going not about stopping or slowing down. One of my goals is to ski all day long and never have to use a breaking move,

The weightshift that you are talking about is a negative move in the sense that you want to turn to the right but your first move is one to the left. When I want to go right I want every move I make to be to the right.

Check out the "Teaching weight on the outside ski" thread to better understand the thinking of most of the instructors at Epic on this subject. Simply put we look on the movement of pressure from foot to foot as an outcome of the turn rather than a cause of the turn. You can indeed create a turn by simulating this outcome but that method will lead to problems down the road.
yd

Ok, you are all ski-instructors but dont forget that we are teaching beginners to wedge here. However, off the topic, I couldent ski in the fall line of a WC downhill race track for very long. If you can good for you and you have my humble apreciation, but in my rule book skiing is all about controlling your speed. Shure, sometimes you want to go really fast but most of the time we want to controll our speed (or maybe you shoud try some steeper runs ). Carving is a typical example of middle aged white stupid men skiing over their own ability causing lots more crashes than before. Some doesent even know how to skid a turn but they weigh 220lbs and they earn lots of money and they ride 50km/h in a wide stance along the edges of their top of the line GS skis. Like they are driving their BMW down the highway. Every kind of skiing except "speed skiing" is about controlling your speed. Even WC DH skiing is about controlling your speed. To fast and you are out. Ok, so my style is a braking style of skiing, I can live with that. But you guys dont kill anybody elses or my kidds racing down in a "DOWNHILL FORWARD" style.

I have to check out "Teaching weight on the outside ski" but you guys need to check out how the pros in the WC accumulate accelerating speed at the very beginning of the turn. This is were half the action is. Before we allways used to talk about the downhill ski but now we have to talk about the outside ski because we actually lean down in the fall line and put the weight on the outside ski that is uphill at that particular moment. Looking at carving tracks set up in different locations is a sad sight because hardly anybody can do it properly. Edge to edge.

Pressure on outside ski outcome or cause of turn??? I would say a blend of both. I for one when Im skiing fast cannot wait for pressure to build up underneath my feet, I need to agressively cause it myselfe. I need to build up pressure and speed and do it dynamically. Not in a static way.

You want every move to be to your right when you turn right???? Let me quote Stu Campbell: For newcomers, skiing can seem counterintuitive. If you want to turn left, it might seem natural to lean to your left. This works at fist- until you lose your edge and tip over to the inside. Worse, it leads to the hard-to-break habbit of standing on your inside ski. To turn left properly, you need to apply pressure to the inside edge of your outsied ski, which is about to become your new downhill ski.

**********************************

Back to original topic of rotation while wedging. I was teaching today and tried the wedging style here in this thread so popularily enforsed. Insted of leaning to my left when I wanted to turn right I simply rolled off the edge on my right ski and therefore turned right. Yes it worked. But not nearly as effectively as counter leaning. Not even close. Even my students started to wonder what I was doing. Flattening the insede ski and counter leaning combined caused a much much better result thou. Also the flattening of the ski is dangerous because its so easy to catch an outside edge on the inside ski and fall. Actually this seemed really dangerous and I would very much discurage anybody to teach like that. If you have your weight on the outside ski and you catch that edge the possible chanse for damage is redused. You need to have skis parallell before attemting this.
post #23 of 142
tdk6, the folks who win races are those who spend the least amount of time slowing down.

But racing aside, when I said you are on your heel if you can raise the tip of the ski, I was referring to the inside ski's foot being on its heel.

Finally, when you teach the kind of wedge turns you describe (which sound like the description of the snowplow turn in the original PSIA manual issued in the 1960s), you are teaching maneuvers that must be unlearned when the client wishes to make decent parallel turns.

You may be providing them with a defensive "speed control" procedure, but you are not really doing them any favors regarding their future skiing practices.
post #24 of 142
Thread Starter 
Kneale Brownson, the folks who win races are those who "brake" as little as nesessary. But they still brake.

Yeah, your are on your heel but not really since you have minor weight on that foot. The whole ide of the exercise is to put your hipps in the right position, inside, keep CM low, not to have any up and down motion with your upper body, keep the pressure on your outside ski, keep your weight forward, make your outside ski turn along a controlled skidded arch and give you a sence rhythm. Among other things. A really good exersise for good and expert skiiers.

1960! Could be, you see they new alredy then how to make a snow plow, wedge, turn. Except they didnt have all the fancy stuff we have nowadays, boots, modern skiis and excellent prepared slopes. I actually have an Austrian book from 1957 and there they also teach the wedge by leaning. It cannot be all that bad if you look at Austrian ski-instructors and their WC skiiers. Not to mention millions of other good skiiers thorugh the years. Maybe this new style is better but I personally dont think so. And I see nothing that has to be unlearned. On the contrary. Counter leaning supports skiing on the highest level. And my students will most certainly never reach higher than that

In TV they once asked Michael Schumacher (F1 driver) what the difference is between driving a F1 car and a go-car. - Since a go-car is small you drive it with your whole body! You counter in every turn with your upper body trying to add pressure on the outside wheels. In a F1 car you just turn the stearing weel.
post #25 of 142
tdk6 said:Ok, you are all ski-instructors but dont forget that we are teaching beginners to wedge.

Yes we are, but we want to teach them movements that they can keep in their skiing forever. The only reason the skis are in a wedge is because it a little easier, but it is still skiing. We don't want them to have to unlearn something. Once a movement has been committed to muscle memory it is very difficult to eliminate. Yes stomping on the opposite ski will work and yes its good to have in a "bag of tricks", but it should not be the basis of their initial skiing movements.

Doing wedge turns IS skiing!!!
post #26 of 142
tdk6,

Actually, I'm not teaching a beginner to wedge, I'm teaching the student to ski and the wedge is just a handy step along the way. Give me the proper terrain and I would probably teach a direct to parallel method and not mess with the wedge at all. I use the braking wedge only as much as the terrain demands it and the students comfort level is enhanced by it. Many of my students are skiing parallel within two hours of first stepping onto skis and progress to skiing easy blues on their second or third day still skiing parallel and using turn shape to control speed rather than a braking move.

yd
post #27 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson
Finally, when you teach the kind of wedge turns you describe (which sound like the description of the snowplow turn in the original PSIA manual issued in the 1960s), you are teaching maneuvers that must be unlearned when the client wishes to make decent parallel turns.

You may be providing them with a defensive "speed control" procedure, but you are not really doing them any favors regarding their future skiing practices.
Amen. Too many people are led down that road in the wrong direction, IMO. It doesn't make much sense to expend effort fighting the one force (gravity) we depend upon to get us down the hill.

Teach them to choose the line that will result in speed control. They'll thank you in the long run.
post #28 of 142
Thread Starter 
Ok guys, now I get it We have a missunderstanding here. We are actually talking about the same thing only you dont understand that turning is controlling speed by actually braking. Coach13 said it in his last line here above. To choose a line.... that is turning in my dictionary and it results in speed controll because you have skidding involved and that is a braking move!

Amen.
post #29 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6
To choose a line.... that is turning in my dictionary and it results in speed controll because you have skidding involved and that is a braking move!

Amen.
It may or may not involve skidding, it just depends on intent. But...it surely doesn't have to be by making skidding turns. As ydnar has said, you can carve a turn across the hill or even back uphill, if need be, to contol speed.
post #30 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach13
It may or may not involve skidding, it just depends on intent. But...it surely doesn't have to be by making skidding turns. As ydnar has said, you can carve a turn across the hill or even back uphill, if need be, to contol speed.
True, but remember we are talking about wedges here. Wedge turners tend to be beginners. While wedge turners may carve every now and then, carving is predominately a mid to upper level skill. Wedge turns at the beginning level are predominately a skidded turn. Skids come from rotary. Now we are back on track about rotation.

Teaching a good wedge turn with the appropriate skill blend starts a skiier onto the track of good skiing. As balance and turn shape to control speed are learned, the wedge becomes the skidded wedge christi. As confidence builds and the skiier learns to change the skill blend, the wedge christi becomes the skidded open stance parallel. With skill blending changes and more dynamism, the skidded turn become carved and dynamic.

This is not to downplay direct to parallel. I've taught that some myself. But again you will normally see the skidded turn come before the carved turn. From there it is a matter of teaching the proper skills blend to carve.

tdk6 states that skidding is a braking move. Now is it always a braking move? No, look at falling leaves, pivot slips, etc. Done properly you can accellerate and decellerate while skidding. You can't go as fast as pointing the skis down the hill, but you can still accellerate.
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