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Teaching Weight on Outside Ski - Page 2

post #31 of 56
If you have a turn going, weight on the outside ski, and you point your inside KNEE farther into the turn, you tighten the radius of the turn.

I've long been an advocate of passive weight transfer in turns. But clinics with my boss, a former Austrian team member, this season have had me focusing on employing a purposely weighted edge earlier in turns, and I'm finding that my general edge use has improved.

I'm still teaching the flattened inside ski turn initiation Ydnar describes, but I'm only discouraging steping onto the outside ski in those cases where the student does so by moving the hip over the ski. I think the flattened inside ski usually lets the student feel how the increasing edge on the outside ski works and causes the student to increase the weighting automatically.
post #32 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
But, let me ask this: does the inside ski have any role in the turn? If so, what is the role as compared to the outside ski? Just to "ride along"? Or...? :
In my view of the world, the inside ski serves mainly to help manage the pressure that builds on the outside ski as we progress through the turn. By shortening or increasing the length of the inside leg relative to the outside leg, we can increase or decrease the pressure on the outside ski as needed to match the skiing situation we are in. The inside ski also provides an additional edge to help hold us as C.F.and gravity "wants" to make our skis slip. In other words the actions of the inside ski compliment those of the outside ski. As I stated before, the steering and edging of the inside/outside skis should be similar. What can be significantly different between the two is the distribution of pressure between the two feet.

Ydnar,

I agree 100% with teaching "guiding" or steering of the skis. It's generally one of the first things I work on (including the focus on the inside leg) Again as clarification, maybe "teaching" and dilibrate were too stong of words to use when I initally addressed the "weight" shift with students. Maybe "identify" would have been a better choice of words. But what comes with the identification of this movement is the ability to redistribute weight/pressure/balance on the skis and how/when/why we do it as the turn develops/progresses. The ability to do this is what makes folks better skiers.

L
post #33 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson
If you have a turn going, weight on the outside ski, and you point your inside KNEE farther into the turn, you tighten the radius of the turn.
I have found this to be true. I have also found if I rotate the inside femur into the turn (instead of pointing the knee, but I think that they accomplish the same action) it does this as well.

So, how does this work, if what lshull says is true? What am I missing? :
post #34 of 56
lshull, since the inside ski actually covers less distance during a turn--and effectively scribes a somewhat tighter turn radius--how is this accommodated?
post #35 of 56
Steve,

Using the inside knee or the inside femur to guide the skis does indeed work. But, we didn't atttach the skis to the knee or the femur we attached them to the foot. So next time you are our play with focusing on a pointing/tipping action/feel of the inside foot. This should give you an even more precise control over the shape of your turns.

The action of the foot will be enough to guide the skis in most situations but if stronger guiding is necessary then as you try to more actively guide the ski at the foot the knee and femur will become involved as necessary.

yd

ps. To answer your question to lshull. If both skis are leaving clean arcs on the ground then the inside ski must be tipped on edge a bit further than the outside ski. The only way I can accomplish this is to actively tip the inside ski at the foot.
post #36 of 56
Thanks, yd. Seems to me that such was what I was trying to say earlier. Man, I have to work on my written communication!
post #37 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by lshull
This is why I said our legs must work together. To be parallel, our skis must be steered equally and edged "equally". Now by "equally" I mean to a degree that allows the skis to be turned through the same arc. There could be subtile differences in the actual torque and edge angles applied to the individual skis to achieve this goal.
And was basicially what I said earlier. I think were all on the same page.....

L
post #38 of 56
lshull, what of yd's comment about using the inside knee/femur/foot to shape the turn? Are you and he (and lil' ol' me) in agreement there, too?
post #39 of 56
I think I would agree that the inside leg "compliments" the shaping of the turn. The way YD wrote it he states it "gives more precise control" and I think that's a fair assessment....

L
post #40 of 56
Fair enough. Thanks for the learning, everyone. And I hope we even addressed the initial topic of the thread! :
post #41 of 56

1 more thing.

I pulled these from Rob Sogard's e-mail from the demo team a few weeks back (skiing concepts 2005). It's just a few relevant statements....

Quote:

>The skier is in balance when they can have a positive, selective
effect on any of the skills with either leg at any time.

>Note: Insufficient forward movement promotes inclination of the
upper body and weaker lower body angles. In addition you may see
over-pivoting of the skis, late pressure application and a divergence
of the ski tips. Avoid pressure control movements at the end of the
turn originating from the knees and hips.

>The core supplies the strength and functional tension to the inside
half of the body to facilitate the steering activity of the legs.

>Steering movements of the legs allow us to adjust the radius of the
turn.

>Lateral weight transfer is a component of pressure management. It
can happen progressively or abruptly, depending on the desired
outcome.

>Maintain the "strength in length" of the o utside leg during the
highest loading portion of the turn unless yielding to the influence of
terrain and snow conditions or releasing the turn.

>Tactics, terrain, speed, snow conditions and turn shape will alter
the timing, intensity and the amount of weight distribution along the
length of the ski and foot to foot.

> Pressure management incorporates aspects of fore/aft adjustments
as well as lateral movements.
post #42 of 56

Role and why of inside ski - what in the world are people talking about

Bob, you're hitting the nail on the head. Your in the group that looks at sking focusing on directing the outside ski - the main load bearing ski.

Steve and some others, John Clendenon, Harald Harb and others look at the role of the outside ski as being for balance and not for controlling the turn shape.

These are two different ways of skiing.

Let me see if I can connect the dots for the people like Bob that rightly note that when they play with their inside leg they see little effect on the outside leg so wonder what voodoo people talking about.

I was talking with Rich Messer about this inability of many to experience on the slopes what happens in a use of the inside foot as taught by lots of different authors and teachers in skiing.

The difference is how people use their hip rotator muscles. The inside ski/kinetic chain people keep the outside leg hip rotator muscles in a co-contracted state. This improves balance. When the hip rotator muscles in the outside and inside leg are simply holding the skis parallel and keeping locked in place that angle and not allowing steering or pivoting, then the inside foot can - like a rudder on a boat - totally control rotary forces.

If, however, the experimentor with this move is used to in their mental muscle memory of not locking the hip rotators, but in fact steering and pivoting them, then this rudder on a boat of the inside ski will do absolutly nothing. Their rudder is effectively no longer attached to the boat but dangling on cables in the water.

John Clendenon teaches hip rotator tension on his ski deck with the simple mental cue, just keep the skis parallel. Rich Messer tells his students maintain some tension in the hips.

Anyway, once this hip tension against rotation and for balance is in place, then here is how the rudder works. The inside foot is tipped strongly to the new direction. It is not diverged but simply tipped. In a real turn on real snow John Clendenon teaches this as simply flaten the down hill ski. This, coming off a real turn, actually is quite an angle change towards tipping. Arcmeister, - Roger Kane, teaches this tipping with an drill while standing in place while he holds your ski tips in place on the ground. He then has you wake up these foot tipping muscles by having you feel strong pressure on that inside foot at the top of the boot to where Roger has to fight you to keep the tips on the ground. These define the range of tipping from light - John Clendenon - to Roger Kane's drill - very strong tipping.

Anyway - this tipping motion of the foot will move the knee into the direction of the new turn. That femur will rotate that way as a result. If your hips are balanced and being held rigid against any rotation, this inside foot tipping creates a very strong rotary component in the other leg. This rotary component is reduced and eliminated once the tipping angle of the outside leg catches up since then the femurs are parallel again.

So, that's what people are talking about and the whys of how this happens when they are talking about the kinetic chain.

A skier can flex the downhill ski while tipping and either, allow early weight shift and stand on the uphill LTE and feel it roll quickly to the BTE and engage as a result of the actions of the downhill ski releasing and tipping, or they can leave weight on the downhill ski while you roll it into the new turn while flexing that leg to create the release and let the pressure change occur as the turn develops. The pressure change can be early or late or anything in between depending on what type of turn you want to create. The common thing is the tipping and flexing of the downhill ski to create the release while changing your primary balance to the new ski which will indeed follow the actions of the inside foot.

Both ways - active outside foot managment (Bob in this thread) and guiding vs stand and balance on the outside foot and guide via flexion and tipping of the inside foot (si and others) will get you down the slopes. But they are different ways to approach the problem of controlling your skis. I don't look at them as right or wrong but as simply two different ways to ski. If the outside leg guiding group has never felt or tried the other way, sometimes its the lack of hip rotator tension that prevents it being experienced when tried on the slopes. For a loosy goosy hip rotator person, just raise your leg while sitting and resist someones attempts to rotate that leg. This will show a person like this what a co-contracted state in the hip rotators feel like. Once that's in place on the slopes, tipping the inside foot while remaining locked parallel with the hip rotators, creates tons of torque. Just manage it while balanced on the outside foot to create anything from hockey stops to beautiful smooth transitions leaving lines in the snow.

Authors that explore this approach to skiing are:

Lito Tejada Flores Breakthru on the new skis
Eric and Rob's book (Eski on this forum) Ski the Whole Mountatin
Harald Harb's books
John Clendonon's book - (not quite out yet)
Craig McNeils book Ski the Blacks and Blues without getting Black and Blue

As noted above in the prior post - Rob Sogard - is in Bob's group and advocates leg steering to shape turns. If that's what you've strived for in years of skiing the co-contrated hip rotators are the oppisite of what you've ever done or wanted to do in your skiing. So it's not surprising that the active steerers at whatever level advocate their way and often don't understand the other way. Interestingly the skiers of the two approaches actually look different coming down the hill.

Sorry to say, none of these author's has addressed the need for some hip tension for phantom edging (lito) phantom move (Harald) to be felt or the issue that people that have polished their hip-rotator steering ability their whole ski lives are cutting off feeling or using this other way to ski. Hopefully they'll explore and address that issue in future books.
post #43 of 56
Before I respond using John Masons post let me remind everyone of the original question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by learn2turn
Here's a question. Despite the two-footed look of today's skiing, we still ski with more weight on your outside ski, yes? How would you teach to that without instructing the student to stand on the outside ski or make a large extension move with the outside leg?

Reason I ask is I was recently shown how a big extension of the outside leg can have determental effects; it prevents the edge from engaging ealyin the turn and may push the ski out at the end of the turn.

ATS is supposed to be a system where you don't have to unlearn a previous move. So what's the thing to teach at level 2/3/4 that won't have to be unlearned at level 5/6?
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason
Both ways - active outside foot managment (Bob in this thread) and guiding vs stand and balance on the outside foot and guide via flexion and tipping of the inside foot (si and others) will get you down the slopes. But they are different ways to approach the problem of controlling your skis. I don't look at them as right or wrong but as simply two different ways to ski. If the outside leg guiding group has never felt or tried the other way, sometimes its the lack of hip rotator tension that prevents it being experienced when tried on the slopes. For a loosy goosy hip rotator person, just raise your leg while sitting and resist someones attempts to rotate that leg. This will show a person like this what a co-contracted state in the hip rotators feel like. Once that's in place on the slopes, tipping the inside foot while remaining locked parallel with the hip rotators, creates tons of torque. Just manage it while balanced on the outside foot to create anything from hockey stops to beautiful smooth transitions leaving lines in the snow.

As noted above in the prior post - Rob Sogard - is in Bob's group and advocates leg steering to shape turns. If that's what you've strived for in years of skiing the co-contrated hip rotators are the oppisite of what you've ever done or wanted to do in your skiing. So it's not surprising that the active steerers at whatever level advocate their way and often don't understand the other way. Interestingly the skiers of the two approaches actually look different coming down the hill.
Ok lets look at the fact that we are trying to teach a level 2/3/4 skier who has probably already been screwed up.

What we are trying to prevent in either case is a very natural tendency to use and develop rotary pushoff all, while getting a skier at this level, to balance on the outside foot and guide the inside foot. Even if there is no push off, there is still a strong tendancy, (what John calls co-contracted hip rotators) to rotate the whole body around the balance (outside) foot inducing large rotary forces on the outside ski. I am in favor of a functional narrow stance in either case. Narrow meaning shoulder width or less.

I can assure you that nearly anything you try short of multi day lessons will result in skiers teaching themselves to rotate around the outside leg.

I can also assure you that either method has plenty of pitfalls to allow an instructor or a student to screw up and induce uncontrolled rotary forces. Any method as noted in Rob Sogards words above must have a forward movement to start the turn.

Harb's method works because the weight, balance and pressure are all set on the outside ski BEFORE the turn is initiated (Phantom move) A slight traverse on one foot is necessary to establish dynamic balance before the inside ski is tipped. It weight is transfered as part of the turn initiation, rotary pushoff is the result. Another way to screw up the Phantom move is rotate the shoulders into the turn. Thats a good way to rotate around the stance foot. It is easy to do as part of keeping the inside foot back. All you have to do is NOT KEEP FORWARD.

Harb's method in actual practice with lower level instuctors for a one or two hour lesson results in movement towards the outside ski as part of the turn initiation, rotation of the shoulders and high rotary forces on the outside ski.

Using the inside steering method, ahhhh I meant the guiding the inside ski method. This method depends on transfer of the balance and pressure to the outside ski prior to guiding the inside ski. The method used is to lighten the inside foot. Weighted release.

The ski cannot be guided until the balance is established. We can really screw this one up. While the student looks at their inside ski they bank the weight right over it. There is no balance established first on the outside ski and the wobbles start. The student can establish the balance on the outside foot then rotate around the outside foot as they twist their inside ski into the new turn. The skis diverge in this one. The fact is they did not stay forward. The inside hip rotated back with the divergence. That is what divergence is.

The point is either method yields good results but either method can and will be screwed up by both instructors and students. Part of the problem with cyberskiing is that someone can be using terms that paint a picture of teaching rotary pushoff and rotation. There is no way of knowing unless the instructor can be observe skiing and teaching. Rotary pushoff or rotation around the outside ski are unintentionally taught by instructors who swear that they are not teaching it so I am always skeptical of written descriptions.

How prevalent is rotary pushoff or rotation around an outside edged ski. Plenty, I would guess that everyone in this thread does one or the other or both. 99.97% depend on it for all of their turns. This year I have really focused on these issues and 80% of the time have removed it from my skiing but not all and some days it 80% the wrong way. The only skiers I have seen who have it licked are a select few examiners, D-team and former D-team members and most elite level racers. There are a few people in Epicski who have largely licked these movements but I can probably count them on two hands.

What we are striving for in our lessons is to reduce the amount of uncontrolled rotary forces in our skiing. Even modest amounts of reduction yield big benefits.
post #44 of 56

Hip Contraction

John Mason: I believe that Harald has addressed this issue in Expert 2 in the chapter on Upper and Lower Body Coordination, at least to some extent. He talks about actively holding the pelvis or moving it opposite to the turn direction. While he doesn't actually mention the hip, after all, the hip bone (femur) is connected to the pelvis (acetabulum). Do you disagree? Stu Campbell discussed "blocking the hip" to prevent rotation in an issue of Ski Magazine last year.
post #45 of 56
Blizzard,

In your view, at what point in the turn does the weight transfer to the outside ski? In (at least) higher level skiing, it certainly happens before we reach the fall line....

L

EDIT: I guess Blizzard retracted his comments...
post #46 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by lshull
Blizzard,

In your view, at what point in the turn does the weight transfer to the outside ski? In (at least) higher level skiing, it certainly happens before we reach the fall line....

L
You probably don't intend to, but you make it sound like weight transfer is all or nothing. I think it starts after edge change and builds throughout the turn in varing amounts. At speed, it can happen at on top of the turn with the bases uphill, IMO.
post #47 of 56
Coach,

No, I agree with you. Sorry if I wasn't more clear. In my mind, the "weight transfer" occurs when predominance of weight changes from one ski to the other. 49%-50%-51%. That's a "weight shift". Not much of one, but it's there. I think that this generally occurs in conjunction with the edge change and that these two events "signify" the start of the new turn (if I had to pick one, I'd pick the edge change). There are obvious exceptions to this, ie royal christies.

As I said yesterday, removing pressure from the old outside ski helps us flatten it....

L
post #48 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason
...
Anyway, once this hip tension against rotation and for balance is in place, then here is how the rudder works. The inside foot is tipped strongly to the new direction. It is not diverged but simply tipped. In a real turn on real snow John Clendenon teaches this as simply flaten the down hill ski. This, coming off a real turn, actually is quite an angle change towards tipping. Arcmeister, - Roger Kane, teaches this tipping with an drill while standing in place while he holds your ski tips in place on the ground. He then has you wake up these foot tipping muscles by having you feel strong pressure on that inside foot at the top of the boot to where Roger has to fight you to keep the tips on the ground. These define the range of tipping from light - John Clendenon - to Roger Kane's drill - very strong tipping.

Anyway - this tipping motion of the foot will move the knee into the direction of the new turn. That femur will rotate that way as a result. If your hips are balanced and being held rigid against any rotation, this inside foot tipping creates a very strong rotary component in the other leg. This rotary component is reduced and eliminated once the tipping angle of the outside leg catches up since then the femurs are parallel again.

I'm trying really hard to visualize this but I just can't convince myself which is the chicken and which is the egg. Why aren't you tipping both at the same time and letting the weight natually move over to the new downhill leg? And once it DOES transfer to the new downhill leg, what further need is there for the new UPhill leg?

So, that's what people are talking about and the whys of how this happens when they are talking about the kinetic chain.

A skier can flex the downhill ski while tipping and either, allow early weight shift and stand on the uphill LTE and feel it roll quickly to the BTE and engage as a result of the actions of the downhill ski releasing and tipping, or they can leave weight on the downhill ski while you roll it into the new turn while flexing that leg to create the release and let the pressure change occur as the turn develops. The pressure change can be early or late or anything in between depending on what type of turn you want to create. The common thing is the tipping and flexing of the downhill ski to create the release while changing your primary balance to the new ski which will indeed follow the actions of the inside foot.

Which sounds like what I think I said above. But the conclusion that the "new ski will indeed follow the actions of the inside foot" is where you hang me up. I would still ask why it can't just as confidently be argued that the new ski sets the direction and the inside foot follows along.

Both ways - active outside foot managment (Bob in this thread) and guiding vs stand and balance on the outside foot and guide via flexion and tipping of the inside foot (si and others) will get you down the slopes. But they are different ways to approach the problem of controlling your skis. I don't look at them as right or wrong but as simply two different ways to ski. If the outside leg guiding group has never felt or tried the other way, sometimes its the lack of hip rotator tension that prevents it being experienced when tried on the slopes. For a loosy goosy hip rotator person, just raise your leg while sitting and resist someones attempts to rotate that leg. This will show a person like this what a co-contracted state in the hip rotators feel like. Once that's in place on the slopes, tipping the inside foot while remaining locked parallel with the hip rotators, creates tons of torque. Just manage it while balanced on the outside foot to create anything from hockey stops to beautiful smooth transitions leaving lines in the snow.

Authors that explore this approach to skiing are:

Lito Tejada Flores Breakthru on the new skis
Eric and Rob's book (Eski on this forum) Ski the Whole Mountatin
Harald Harb's books
John Clendonon's book - (not quite out yet)
Craig McNeils book Ski the Blacks and Blues without getting Black and Blue

As noted above in the prior post - Rob Sogard - is in Bob's group and advocates leg steering to shape turns. If that's what you've strived for in years of skiing the co-contrated hip rotators are the oppisite of what you've ever done or wanted to do in your skiing. So it's not surprising that the active steerers at whatever level advocate their way and often don't understand the other way. Interestingly the skiers of the two approaches actually look different coming down the hill.

That's my conclusion as well. Boy, I wish you were here to point out a good example of each approach to me.

Sorry to say, none of these author's has addressed the need for some hip tension for phantom edging (lito) phantom move (Harald) to be felt or the issue that people that have polished their hip-rotator steering ability their whole ski lives are cutting off feeling or using this other way to ski. Hopefully they'll explore and address that issue in future books.
I've never taken a human anatomy course and honestly don't know a contracted hip rotator from a subdural hematoma. As a result, I glaze over at the first mention of various muscle groups and kinetic chains.

So, is there a way to shorthand for me what kind of improvement I would feel if I were to magically start using the co-contracted hip rotators? You're able to tell the difference between the two types of skiers when you see them on the hill, so what improvements would the new approach yield? I know you've never seen me ski, but maybe you can generalize based on generic examples of the two types of skiers:

Would I ski more in control?

Less energy expended?

Quicker from one edge to the other?

Better in moguls?

Better carving?

All of the above plus an end to world hunger?

Bob
post #49 of 56
OK, before people respond to Bob, let me try to provide some clarification :

I think it is pretty easy to spot someone who uses a lot of "rotary" and "steering" in their skiing. Bob is definitely not one of them. I would be more than VERY satisfied in a ski development end point that took me to his level of form and efficiency in skiing. This, in spite of the fact that I seem to perceive and approach my ski skill development quite differently than him. I strongly suggest to those who haven't seen Bob ski that you don't assume anything based on words. I definitely don't think Bob is one of those who would have to break down his skiing to any great extent to approach or match any system's criteria of good skiing, especially PMTS.

This doesn't mean that I think his perceptions are the best way to think about ski movements but it does make me realize how differently people can think about and perceive ski movements. Especially in Bob's case I listen very carefully because his skiing is definitely beyond where most people's talk is.
post #50 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters
I've never taken a human anatomy course and honestly don't know a contracted hip rotator from a subdural hematoma. As a result, I glaze over at the first mention of various muscle groups and kinetic chains.

So, is there a way to shorthand for me what kind of improvement I would feel if I were to magically start using the co-contracted hip rotators? NOYou're able to tell the difference between the two types of skiers when you see them on the hill, so what improvements would the new approach yield? I know you've never seen me ski, but maybe you can generalize based on generic examples of the two types of skiers:

Would I ski more in control? NO

Less energy expended? NO

Quicker from one edge to the other? NO

Better in moguls? NO

Better carving? NO

All of the above plus an end to world hunger?

Bob
Bob
I hope you don't mind my 2 cents.
You ski as such a high skill level that you make movements that you are not aware of. You look where you want to go and you go there, no thinking involved, it just happens. In PSIA jargon you are "The Effective Athlete" , unconsciously competent. (If this is wrong some one please correct me)
I agree 100% with Si.
post #51 of 56
Lonnie said:

"As I said yesterday, removing pressure from the old outside ski helps us flatten it...."

Or, flattening it helps remove the pressure, eh? You have to relax that leg to let the flattening occur.
post #52 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason
As noted above in the prior post - Rob Sogard - is in Bob's group and advocates leg steering to shape turns. If that's what you've strived for in years of skiing the co-contrated hip rotators are the oppisite of what you've ever done or wanted to do in your skiing. So it's not surprising that the active steerers at whatever level advocate their way and often don't understand the other way. Interestingly the skiers of the two approaches actually look different coming down the hill.
I don't think this is true, actually. I'll try to break this down in a later post, but I think that you're jumping to conclusions based on your anti-PSIA, pro-PMTS bias. In fact, I think that Rob's writing draws a very similar conclusion to your own, and this paragraph coming in the middle of your epistle rocked me. : :
post #53 of 56
How about keep your knee bent for control and drive that edge (inside edge of outside ski) INTO the snow? - No big extension move, no sliding the edge across the surface.
post #54 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
How about keep your knee bent for control and drive that edge (inside edge of outside ski) INTO the snow? - No big extension move, no sliding the edge across the surface.
To accomplish what, specifically?
post #55 of 56
Methinks you guys cogitate too much!!

"It's just skiing!!!"

Thinking and analyzing is fine, but sometimes you just got to do it and feel it!! It's all about fun isn't it?

Thinking is fine, but doing and feeling is better!!!

"Ski like a GIRL!!"

Bong
post #56 of 56
Fine coming from you. You dropped into a couple of feet of powder at Vail today. I, on the other hand, was on-line trying to find some paying work! Rub it in a little, why don't ya!
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