Before I respond using John Masons post let me remind everyone of the original question.
Originally Posted by learn2turn
Here's a question. Despite the two-footed look of today's skiing, we still ski with more weight on your outside ski, yes? How would you teach to that without instructing the student to stand on the outside ski or make a large extension move with the outside leg?
Reason I ask is I was recently shown how a big extension of the outside leg can have determental effects; it prevents the edge from engaging ealyin the turn and may push the ski out at the end of the turn.
ATS is supposed to be a system where you don't have to unlearn a previous move. So what's the thing to teach at level 2/3/4 that won't have to be unlearned at level 5/6?
Originally Posted by John Mason
Both ways - active outside foot managment (Bob in this thread) and guiding vs stand and balance on the outside foot and guide via flexion and tipping of the inside foot (si and others) will get you down the slopes. But they are different ways to approach the problem of controlling your skis. I don't look at them as right or wrong but as simply two different ways to ski. If the outside leg guiding group has never felt or tried the other way, sometimes its the lack of hip rotator tension that prevents it being experienced when tried on the slopes. For a loosy goosy hip rotator person, just raise your leg while sitting and resist someones attempts to rotate that leg. This will show a person like this what a co-contracted state in the hip rotators feel like. Once that's in place on the slopes, tipping the inside foot while remaining locked parallel with the hip rotators, creates tons of torque. Just manage it while balanced on the outside foot to create anything from hockey stops to beautiful smooth transitions leaving lines in the snow.
As noted above in the prior post - Rob Sogard - is in Bob's group and advocates leg steering to shape turns. If that's what you've strived for in years of skiing the co-contrated hip rotators are the oppisite of what you've ever done or wanted to do in your skiing. So it's not surprising that the active steerers at whatever level advocate their way and often don't understand the other way. Interestingly the skiers of the two approaches actually look different coming down the hill.
Ok lets look at the fact that we are trying to teach a level 2/3/4 skier who has probably already been screwed up.
What we are trying to prevent in either case is a very natural tendency to use and develop rotary pushoff all, while getting a skier at this level, to balance on the outside foot and guide the inside foot. Even if there is no push off, there is still a strong tendancy, (what John calls co-contracted hip rotators) to rotate the whole body around the balance (outside) foot inducing large rotary forces on the outside ski. I am in favor of a functional narrow stance in either case. Narrow meaning shoulder width or less.
I can assure you that nearly anything you try short of multi day lessons will result in skiers teaching themselves to rotate around the outside leg.
I can also assure you that either method has plenty of pitfalls to allow an instructor or a student to screw up and induce uncontrolled rotary forces. Any method as noted in Rob Sogards words above must have a forward movement to start the turn.
Harb's method works because the weight, balance and pressure are all set on the outside ski BEFORE the turn is initiated (Phantom move) A slight traverse on one foot is necessary to establish dynamic balance before the inside ski is tipped. It weight is transfered as part of the turn initiation, rotary pushoff is the result. Another way to screw up the Phantom move is rotate the shoulders into the turn. Thats a good way to rotate around the stance foot. It is easy to do as part of keeping the inside foot back. All you have to do is NOT KEEP FORWARD.
Harb's method in actual practice with lower level instuctors for a one or two hour lesson results in movement towards the outside ski as part of the turn initiation, rotation of the shoulders and high rotary forces on the outside ski.
Using the inside steering method, ahhhh I meant the guiding the inside ski method. This method depends on transfer of the balance and pressure to the outside ski prior to guiding the inside ski. The method used is to lighten the inside foot. Weighted release.
The ski cannot be guided until the balance is established. We can really screw this one up. While the student looks at their inside ski they bank the weight right over it. There is no balance established first on the outside ski and the wobbles start. The student can establish the balance on the outside foot then rotate around the outside foot as they twist their inside ski into the new turn. The skis diverge in this one. The fact is they did not stay forward. The inside hip rotated back with the divergence. That is what divergence is.
The point is either method yields good results but either method can and will be screwed up by both instructors and students. Part of the problem with cyberskiing is that someone can be using terms that paint a picture of teaching rotary pushoff and rotation. There is no way of knowing unless the instructor can be observe skiing and teaching. Rotary pushoff or rotation around the outside ski are unintentionally taught by instructors who swear that they are not teaching it so I am always skeptical of written descriptions.
How prevalent is rotary pushoff or rotation around an outside edged ski. Plenty, I would guess that everyone in this thread does one or the other or both. 99.97% depend on it for all of their turns. This year I have really focused on these issues and 80% of the time have removed it from my skiing but not all and some days it 80% the wrong way. The only skiers I have seen who have it licked are a select few examiners, D-team and former D-team members and most elite level racers. There are a few people in Epicski who have largely licked these movements but I can probably count them on two hands.
What we are striving for in our lessons is to reduce the amount of uncontrolled rotary forces in our skiing. Even modest amounts of reduction yield big benefits.