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Rhythm?

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
Am I out of line to say that rhythm is one of the most over rated things in upper level skiing?

To me, rhythm in skiing is a means to allow a skier to ski the fast line slow while staying within reasonable comfort. A means of linking inefficient CM movements.

I think over reliance on rhythm pre determines the path of ones skies and makes it hard to bail out at any time.

Don't get me wrong. Rhythm has its place and is very much a part of good skiing.
post #2 of 21
I think of rhythm in terms of what PSIman does... The natural rhythm of skis and slope and snow. Not fighting what's there, but using it effectively. I think of powder 8 skiers beautifully laying down synchronous tracks. Rhythm is part of what makes that attractive.

That said, artificially enforcing rhythm because it "should be" is inappropriate, ineffective, and usually causes challenges that must be overcome. At least as I see it.
post #3 of 21
If its over rated or not is hard to say but I personally find it very important.

Being a part time musician myselfe, while plaing in bands rehersing or on a gig I have allways been counting beats and measures and timed intros, brakes and endings wich in music allways relate to rhythm. While I am playing rhythm guitar in a Dixiland band and going 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4...etc for 3 hours on a gig. When I ski I also try to keep a good rhythm. Basicly, good skiiers have good rhythm in their skiing.

Pierre, I think you are confusing things here, keeping a consistent rhythm going is by no means a limiting factor. However, I know what you are implying by saying:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
I think over reliance on rhythm pre determines the path of ones skies and makes it hard to bail out at any time.
But this is just because many skiiers make a trun rely on the previous one. This is not a proper way of linking turns. And your darn wright, it will make it impossible to bail out once something happens. And you shouldent try to go to fast, but none of the abowe has anything to do with rhythm. Rhythm can be slow as well. And then you have the rhythm of the pist you are skiing to take in consideration. You have to be prepared all the time to adjust your rhythm to the terrain. For instance FIS mogul skiing will give you points for keeping a consistent rhythm but thats all wrong in my book. You have to listen to the music and feel the terrain. A mogul run has to be skiied according to the moguls. A WC slalom race according to gates set.

Talking about rhythm.... I was partisipating in jet annother amusing Teacher education seminar on friday and one workshop came up with the following rhythm for an exersise: 1 2 threeeeeee 1 2 threeeeee... etc (first 2 truns short and the 3rd one long). I pointed out that it is 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 etc. You just make the 3 last twise as long as the 1 and the 2. In musical terms we call it a half note. It lasts half the beat. In this case 3 and 4. The 1 and the two are quarte notes (4/4).

ssh, you havent made any comment to my post on your video thread!
post #4 of 21
Pierre I see rhythm required for flow. Having ownership of rhythm gives the ability to change the rhythm. To change duration we need rhythm, to change intensity we need rhythm, to change the rate we need rhythm, as well as changing the timing.

Maybe what I'm really trying to say is that rhythm shows ownership of movements and the ability to blend the needed movements. As TDK6 said just like in music. Later, RicB.
post #5 of 21
Rhythm Defined - Chambers Dictionary ...arrangement of ... more or less regular, stressed or unstressed

A rhythm is therefore repetitive execution of actions. It may be planned or unplanned, regular or irregular, emphasised or subtle

A Skier makes repeated execution of actions. It may be planned or unplanned, regular or irregular, emphasised or subtle

If someone does not have a rhythm he is NOT a skier

So I guess you could say it is important
post #6 of 21
This was something of a topic in our group at the ESA. One of the ladies suggested we do a series of turns to a rhythm. I think the decision was to make it a 5/8, i.e. begin the turn on the 5, and be out of the fall line by the 8.
Unfortunately, for me as an Irishman, and a guitarist, I don't like 5/8. I prefer a 3/4 time, i.e. a waltz. So I was skiing to a 3/4, which seemed "wrong" to those advocating a 5/8.
post #7 of 21
Speed, duration, rhythm, timing, and intensity are the qualifying characteristics of any movement, including skiing movements, so I don't think rhythm can be overrated at any level. It's necessary at all levels.
post #8 of 21
Being relatively new to this sport and a long time coach in other sports, I'm often struck by the commonalities that I encounter in my sports that relate to skiing. I just finished presenting at a baseball clinic where my topics were pitching and hitting. In both of these activities, I continually preach the importance of balance and rhythm as the starting point and a necessary ingredient.

One of the attendees in the pitching session posed the question, "If we can ensure that our pitchers have both good balance and rhythm, will we ensure that they'll be good pitchers?" My answer, "No, but if they don't have good balance and rhythm, you can ensure that they won't be good pitchers."

I think this same concept applies to skiing. That is, it's necessary but it doesn't end there.
post #9 of 21
To me "rhythm" is the fluidity from which one motion leads smoothly to the next. In skiing, a good turn flows into the next turn and into the next turn. In perfect rhythm, each turn is not discreet, but a continuum where there is really no beginning.

That is a good thing.

I think what is detrimental is the over reliance on rhythmic motions at the exclusion of other properties, and over reliance can take away spontaneity and the ability to quickly respond by changing turn shape, to alter the skill blend to adapt to terrain changes, and to accomodate change of intent.

Man, this is deep. Too deep for this kid this morning. :
post #10 of 21
Pierre writes: "I think over reliance on rhythm pre determines the path of ones skies and makes it hard to bail out at any time."

Maybe the problem lies in teaching people through too many analogies, and not in actually focusing on the skiing itself. Skiers should be able to vary their rhythm, turn shape and speed according to the terrain, number of skiers and, as always happens, an unexpected change in either. As Witherell and Evrard emphasize, a skier should be poised, not posed.
post #11 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by josseph
I think what is detrimental is the over reliance on rhythmic motions at the exclusion of other properties, and over reliance can take away spontaneity and the ability to quickly respond by changing turn shape, to alter the skill blend to adapt to terrain changes, and to accomodate change of intent.

Man, this is deep. Too deep for this kid this morning. :
I don't know you seem to have hit the nail I was getting at. To many skiers rely on rhythm to ski dynamically and cannot suddenly alter or change. These are the ones who accuse beginners of getting in the way on the slopes.
post #12 of 21
I think there is a rhythm to a turn, but not to linking turns. If you rely on a beat to tell you when to start or stop a turn, you are not truly flowing downhill.
post #13 of 21
Pierre wrote: "These are the ones who accuse beginners of getting in the way on the slopes."

Right on, Pierre. I would agree and I've seen so many near collisions becasue of this. It's kind of frightening.
post #14 of 21
Kinda difficult to win a figure 8 contest without it?
post #15 of 21
I think there is rhythm to linking turns just like there is rhythm to linking steps or strides when walking or running or better yet like when linking notes when paying music. whether we play a full note, half note, quarter note, or eighth note, without rhythm to them there is no song. Without rhythm from turn to turn there is no dance on the snow, there is only individual turns, and without rhythm in the individual movements of a turn there is no rhythm to the individual turn. that's my take anyway. Later, RicB.
post #16 of 21
To ski with a periodic rhythm of turn shape and timing take terrain mastery. Any turn, any time, any place, The skier sets the stage. In mogul skiing I can't think of anything more demonstrative of accomplishment.
Terrain responsive skiing may break the perfect symetry. Improvisational , jazz, a rill, or whatever but still a rhythm. Good skiing returns to a tempo after a pleasurable excursion.
For myself, one of the greatest pleasures is the rhythmic flow of turns through tight glades. The open spaces between the trees are as the silence between sounds, the inaction defining the action.
When the feeling is energetic, It's 1,2 -1,2 - 1,2 When the legs are a bit sluggish, or indecisive, it might be 1,2,3, - 1,2,3- 1,2,3 -1,2 -1,2 etc.

When the rhythm is flowing, I like that feeling.

I feel that rhythm in skiing is UNDER RATED.

(Just don't lock yourself in, the mountain is the conductor, pay attention!)

CalG
post #17 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgrandy
(Just don't lock yourself in, the mountain is the conductor, pay attention!)CalG
I really like that thought! Thanks CalG!
post #18 of 21

Real Rythm

Real Rythm is created and experienced. We have to be "tuned" into the rythm and flow of not only ourselves, but the rythm and flow of what is around us as we ski. Rythm does not mean locking yourself into the beat of The Beatles Yellow Submarine. Its more a relationship of our making turn after turn after turn WHILE we react in "concert" to what is going on around us at any given moment.

Think of a snake slithering through the grass. Does he take one course and only make medium-radius slithers? If something gets in his way, he continues slithering, but may tighten up the radii into short-radius slithers or change to long radius-slithers as he continues on his way.

Be as versatile with rythm & flow as you are with different terrain or turnshape etc. and it can be another "skill" to blend in with the rest....

Its important in an overall sort of way. (Ready for some heady humor? Ok, here it comes....its the big circle in a "Zen Diagram")
post #19 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgrandy
To ski with a periodic rhythm of turn shape and timing take terrain mastery. Any turn, any time, any place, The skier sets the stage. In mogul skiing I can't think of anything more demonstrative of accomplishment.
Terrain responsive skiing may break the perfect symetry. Improvisational , jazz, a rill, or whatever but still a rhythm. Good skiing returns to a tempo after a pleasurable excursion.
For myself, one of the greatest pleasures is the rhythmic flow of turns through tight glades. The open spaces between the trees are as the silence between sounds, the inaction defining the action.
When the feeling is energetic, It's 1,2 -1,2 - 1,2 When the legs are a bit sluggish, or indecisive, it might be 1,2,3, - 1,2,3- 1,2,3 -1,2 -1,2 etc.

When the rhythm is flowing, I like that feeling.

I feel that rhythm in skiing is UNDER RATED.

(Just don't lock yourself in, the mountain is the conductor, pay attention!)

CalG
Well said CalG. what I'm always saying to my students is that skiing is like dancing and the mountain is your partner. Later, Ricb.
post #20 of 21
To get a bit more philosophical ...

Why is rhythm more fundamental in skiing than say gliding or surfing?

I think it is because skiing energy comes from the fall line and the fall line provide more energy than we need. If you turn away from the fall line you will need to turn back into the fall line and vice versa. This naturally imposed symmetry means that skiing movements frequently assume a pendulum like rhythm.

I would argue that good surfing shares the same natural aesthetic beauty as good skiing and yet because there is no naturally imposed symmetry, rhythm is not fundamental.

If anything rhythm constrains the free form expression aspect of skiing.
post #21 of 21
I think rhythm is important. I think that (as in music) it should be stressed that you can change the beat but remain in rhythm. In skiing a high level skier should be able to maintain a rhythm (or even a beat) and change the turn by changing the size, shape and/or amount of edge, etc.

I love to play with keeping a rhythm while skiing all over the place. I play with the hill, but do it with rhythm.

From what I understand (I may be wrong, so some of the high-end race coaches may want to correct me), but a good race course has rhythm, even though the gates are not set exactly the same the whole way down. The rhythm is developed by a consistant flow. Although I could see a course setting tactic to be having a course where the rhythm changes abruptly.

Is it over rated? Probably not, because it's not stressed as heavily as it used to be in the days of skinny skis and short swing turns.
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