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Video MA please Bbarr1000

post #1 of 64
Thread Starter 
The short clip includes a series of medium radius turns on a blue run in the Midwest. It was a particularly icy day. I'm preparing for my Level II exam and am interested in basic comments about my form and technique. In particular, I've been working in my own skiing on moving from an "A-Frame" to more of an "O-Frame" during transitions and towards more active inner leg initiation of turns. The clip itself is rather short, but so too are the runs in Wisconsin

Video clip
post #2 of 64
Well that worked out nice. Here you go, Ben
post #3 of 64
Thread Starter 

Thanks!

Thanks for posting it DC!

Much obliged,

Ben
post #4 of 64
Ben,

These look like passable turns to me. You've got nice smooth rhythm and great angulation. I don't see an A frame problem, but I do see an overall tendency to keep the thighs closer together than I'd like to see (especially later in the run). On your right turns, there is a tendency to finish with a little diverging of the outside ski. This leads to a step move during the initiation of left turns. I'd like to see the hips more active in turn initiation. Your left hand pole swing is also pulling your shoulders open a bit. My suggestions are to use your hips more during turn initiation (moving forward and into the new turn), to use a little more counter and use more right hand like pole flicking with the left hand.
post #5 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty
Ben,

These look like passable turns to me. You've got nice smooth rhythm and great angulation. I don't see an A frame problem, but I do see an overall tendency to keep the thighs closer together than I'd like to see (especially later in the run). On your right turns, there is a tendency to finish with a little diverging of the outside ski. This leads to a step move during the initiation of left turns. I'd like to see the hips more active in turn initiation. Your left hand pole swing is also pulling your shoulders open a bit. My suggestions are to use your hips more during turn initiation (moving forward and into the new turn), to use a little more counter and use more right hand like pole flicking with the left hand.
Thanks for the comments, therusty, you have an observant eye! Any tips to reduce diverging inside skis? I would imagine using a simple pulling back of the inside foot or lifting the toes up might do it. Anything else?

I want to clarify about hip usage -- I'm using my hips at present but not early enough. So work on aligning the hip (countering) and moving forward/laterally earlier in the turn to help prevent the old stepping technique that sometimes shows up in my skiing. Also, widening the base stance a tad should probably help some with reducing the stepping (because I will be more stable and will have less need to step to balance or hold myself up).

Just checking for understanding.

Thanks for the ideas,

Ben
post #6 of 64
I agree that I think those turns will get you there.

It looks like the rotation is coming from the shoulders due to an arm swing/pole plant that crosses in front of the body a bit too much. Sort of a mild cross block (as in cross blocking gates). Luckily you don't go all out and open the hand to the hill, but you do still have the arm moving from the inside out. I would suggest simply not letting your forearm cross in front of you. The end result of this, is that after the pole plant, the arm continues to swing out beside you, rotating your upper body.

As for the slight diverge, I have to wonder if it comes from too much pressure on the inside ski? It looks like a classic case of that (could come from too much rotation and banking). But the hill being as short and flat as it is, and not carrying a lot of speed and finishing the turns more makes it tough to tell. I would ask you to either ski something a lot steeper or pick up a whole bunch of speed then make a few faster, rounder turns, and see if the pressure is regulated correctly. As an exercise, you might want to just ski only on the outside ski, switching at turn transition. Then, get the inside foot back on the snow, while keeping >50% of the pressure on the outside ski and turning both skis the same amount.
Either way, I do still feel these meet L2 thresholds.
post #7 of 64
Ben,

Your welcome and thank you for the kind compliment.

Someone, who shall remain nameless-not (John) said my posts were too long. So I was trying to keep things short by not connecting the dots. I remember seeing some posts about diverging skis a while back that I think explained this pretty well, but I'm actually trying to do a little work at the moment. Don't worry so much about trying to fix the diverging skis. This is a symptom that should go away when you get the hips involved earlier in the turn. Don't worry about the tight stance right away either. Closing up the stance will make it easier to learn the earlier hip movement. Once you learn that, then you can check to see if you have a "functional" stance width (narrow when you need it and wider when you need it).

I did a cool exercise with Michael Rogan a couple weeks ago. When asked "what was too narrow a stance?" he said "I don't know. Let's try it." So we tried to ski with our legs locked together. He made some nice looking turns this way. I got my skis close enough that the tips and the tails were overlapping.
post #8 of 64
As usual, ignore this advice if you disagree, it could be worthless, afterall, I'm not PSIA, and don't know anything about L2 requirements. Please be aware, this is nit picking. You are smooth, and only a bit of refinement is required, not wholesale changes.

IMO:

You told us that you are going for an "O" frame, and the way you hold your arms appear to reflect that desire. This causes the pole baskets to be held too far apart. Remember: thumbs up and forwards.

The poles need to be planted when the skiis are flat. Rotation has a habit of showing up when the poles are planted too early, since one wants to get from one edge to the other and pivot at the same time. Remember: flatten, touch and turn. As you touch the pole down, consider giving the abs a bit of a "crunch". This should effectively help block upper body rotation, and leave the legs free to rotate.

The tip divergence may also be caused by a skating/stepping into the transition, thinking "right tip goes right". It's not wrong to think that, just the interpretation needs to be cleaned up a bit.

The divergence also shows up with an increased distance between your legs on right hand turns, indicating the step/skate action. I suggest trying to keep everything parallel as a unit below the knees: shins, edge angles and skiis. Complete the turn by lowering edge angles, as opposed to skating out of the turn. Flex/soften as opposed to stepping up and over....imagine remaining the same height above the ground, but flex out of and extend into the new turn. This should be easy, you are smooth.

Be careful with counter: tip lead does not always indicate counter. In this case, the skating action/step you are trying to get rid of pushes the foot forwards independently of the hips, and sort of looks like counter.

Linked javelin turns would be of great help isolating the countering movement without thinking about tip lead. When you finish a javelin turn, make sure you place the uphill foot beside the downhill foot to avoid the dreaded skate/step as you start the next javelin turn.

Hope that makes some sense, and good luck on L2!
post #9 of 64
I think BigE had the right comment regarding the diverging skis. You seem to have an active inside leg that engages in too much rotation. Think "tip right to go right" not "point tip in the right direction to go right". I have no idea how therusty figures that this divergence will go away if you involve hips earlier in the turn. Perhaps he means that your edges (tips) should have a much earlier engagement. I agree with that 100%.

The other habit that you have to eliminate is the tendency to lead with your outside upper half (arms and shoulders). This seems to encourage your inside leg rotation and almost guarantees that your turns are skidded. Of course JohnH made that clear enough.

Another thing that I like to see in upper level skiing is more "cross-under" technique. In other words absorb a little at the end of the turn and have those edges engaged early for the next turn. I realize that many PSIA people believe in finishing tall (you tend to do that too). I don't buy that when it comes to high-end dynamic skiing. I prefer to see a cross-under finish with a progressive extension into the apex (fall-line) of the new turn. When I look at top instructors they often ski that way.

I am less optimistic that this represents Level II skiing, but then I am very critical on everyone (including myself). Don't let that bother you!
post #10 of 64
I think the icy conditions have an impact here. Maybe you slip just a little bit ?? You look very smooth, fluid , and stable to me. Good luck and I 'm betting you pass the exam.
post #11 of 64
Thread Starter 

PSIA Input

I'd be curious to hear from any PSIA folk about their response to TomB's comments. I appreciate them TomB, but want to make sure they're in line with my PSIA expectations. Notes are below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB
I think BigE had the right comment regarding the diverging skis. You seem to have an active inside leg that engages in too much rotation. Think "tip right to go right" not "point tip in the right direction to go right". I have no idea how therusty figures that this divergence will go away if you involve hips earlier in the turn. Perhaps he means that your edges (tips) should have a much earlier engagement. I agree with that 100%.
In reviewing the video, I think the edge engagement point is quite true. I'll work on earlier edge engagement before the fall line. Any suggested drills to get them rolling over sooner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB
The other habit that you have to eliminate is the tendency to lead with your outside upper half (arms and shoulders). This seems to encourage your inside leg rotation and almost guarantees that your turns are skidded. Of course JohnH made that clear enough.
Describe this leading with my outside upper half. I'm not seeing it but would like to correct it if it is there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB
Another thing that I like to see in upper level skiing is more "cross-under" technique. In other words absorb a little at the end of the turn and have those edges engaged early for the next turn. I realize that many PSIA people believe in finishing tall (you tend to do that too). I don't buy that when it comes to high-end dynamic skiing. I prefer to see a cross-under finish with a progressive extension into the apex (fall-line) of the new turn. When I look at top instructors they often ski that way.
I've been asked by every PSIA examiner that I ski with to ski taller, so I've been trying to do that. Any thoughts from PSIA folk?

Thanks for the input! B
post #12 of 64
Thread Starter 
I find your observations compelling as well, BigE. I have a few questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
Remember: flatten, touch and turn. As you touch the pole down, consider giving the abs a bit of a "crunch". This should effectively help block upper body rotation, and leave the legs free to rotate.
Does my skiing show signs of excessive upper body rotation which inhibits the edge change for my legs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
The tip divergence may also be caused by a skating/stepping into the transition, thinking "right tip goes right". It's not wrong to think that, just the interpretation needs to be cleaned up a bit.
Specifically, the interpretation that needs to be cleaned up is that the inside leg needs to match more closely the movements of the outside leg? As I see it, the inside leg is diverging outward because I am, perhaps, tipping and engaging it too much?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
The divergence also shows up with an increased distance between your legs on right hand turns, indicating the step/skate action. I suggest trying to keep everything parallel as a unit below the knees: shins, edge angles and skiis. Complete the turn by lowering edge angles, as opposed to skating out of the turn.
I think your last sentence here would mirror what I've heard from PSIA folks. Angulation and edge angles are most dramatic at the end of a turn. Once the angulation and edge angles have reached their peak (to control speed and the shape of the turn), then lower them to start the next turn. I just have to place more psychological trust in the fact that I will, indeed, flow from one turn to the next without a skating/stepping technique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
Flex/soften as opposed to stepping up and over....imagine remaining the same height above the ground, but flex out of and extend into the new turn. This should be easy, you are smooth.
I think this is just a matter of repetition and practicing railroad track turns to trust the flexing, extending and moving laterally forward into the next turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
Be careful with counter: tip lead does not always indicate counter. In this case, the skating action/step you are trying to get rid of pushes the foot forwards independently of the hips, and sort of looks like counter.

Linked javelin turns would be of great help isolating the countering movement without thinking about tip lead. When you finish a javelin turn, make sure you place the uphill foot beside the downhill foot to avoid the dreaded skate/step as you start the next javelin turn.
What "countering movement" are you referring to? Do you mean my stepping movement, which causes divergence, and perhaps influences counter? Or is there some other countering movement in my skiing? I'm just unclear here.

Thanks for your help! Follow-up is appreciated. Thanks!
post #13 of 64
Ben,
I am not an examiner....that being said...
I would have to agree that these turns are acceptable for passing a level II exam in that task.
Re; the subject of 'finishing tall'.......I have never heard an examiner suggest that.

Re; Skiing taller....this is usually requested when a skier is inappropriately over flexed.(obvious). Usually this 'over flexed' position is either coming from the waist or the knee. In following this thought.....A skiier usually over flexes at the aforementioned areas due to lack of flex at the ankle joint. By over flexing the waist or the knee the skier is able to compensate for the lack of ankle flex...thereby achieving adequate pressure on the front of the skis. It is hard to tell from the video if this is indeed an issue with your skiing. This will be easier to identify in short radius turns.

As far as edge change before the fall line. This is certainly something to work towards. Realize that is what is required for Level III success.
Good luck.
Keep the videos coming!!
post #14 of 64
bbarr1000,

Let me try to answer each question to the best of my ability:

1) Earlier edge engagement.

Therusty mentioned to get your hips more active in turn initiation. While I am not convinced that it is the most effective way, it may work. Personally I think you should first try to complete your turns a little more. That will put you in a somewhat better position to engage the tips. In other words you will have a chance to engage them BEFORE you hit the fall line. This way you can get that feeling of tips engaging and pulling into the new turn.

2) Leading with outside arm.

Let me quote JohnH: I would suggest simply not letting your forearm cross in front of you. The end result of this, is that after the pole plant, the arm continues to swing out beside you, rotating your upper body.

When you let your forearm cross in front of you (after the pole plant) you are effectively leading with that arm. That can lead to over rotation and skidding. It is almost as if you are reaching for the NEXT pole plant too early!

3) Skiing taller.

This is one of the issues I have with the PSIA approach. It is taylored for the less athletic people and it often leads to a bit of that "park-and-ride" look which I don't like. Think about it this way:

I am exagerating here a little, but if you finish tall, then after engaging the new edges you have no extension left in you. Thus you will park-and-ride the new turn. I cannot tell you how many people do that on the slopes. I prefer to finish shorter, take advantage of the new ski technology to do a cross-under edge change and then extend into the new turn. I aim to be "tallest" at the apex of the turn (in the fall-line). I am not always doing this, but I aim for this, because I like it. It is a personal preference. I am curious to see what PSIA people have to say about this.
post #15 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB
1) Earlier edge engagement.
.....Personally I think you should first try to complete your turns a little more.
Tom, I am curious as to why you said this. From his video, it seems Ben's turns were pretty well completed. Are you commenting that he needs to return to the neutral position before beginning the next turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB
2) Leading with outside arm.
I am also curious about this statement. Isn't the current mantra that everything happens from the feet up? Can fixation with leading with the outside arm open another can of worms?
post #16 of 64
Josseph,

Actually those turns are not really completed, but for the pitch of the slope they are probably fine. I was sugesting that bbarr1000 complete turns more as a drill or progression to have a chance to better experience early edge engagement. Once he experience that pull into the new turn, he will realize that completing turns is key to early edge engagement.

As for your second question: you are right, everything happens from the feet up, unless you talk to those that prefer to "lead" with their CM and have the feet follow. I think they go together but at my level of skiing I prefer to initiatie with the feet. As for the leading outside arm, I am only suggesting that bbarr1000 repress that move to some extent. That early reach for the next pole plant is detrimental to a strong carve and a quiet upper body.
post #17 of 64
PREFACE: I didn't review anyone else's posts, just downloaded Bbarr1000's vid, watched it repeatedly, and then typed these thoughts. I'm not an instructor, just a student of ski movements and MA.

left-going turns appear to have conscious heel thrust, turns no 2, 4, 6

right-going turns begin patiently w/o push

what's up with what appears to me as static hips? am I misreading the sequence of moves? or maybe it was that part of your goal in this bit? for reference on "static hips" in my review I see lots of ski crossunder but not much angulation-oriented engagement of the hips & knees in the act, more like soft (vertical compliance) knees and a conscious leg extension in the left-going turns.
post #18 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB
Another thing that I like to see in upper level skiing is more "cross-under" technique. In other words absorb a little at the end of the turn and have those edges engaged early for the next turn. !
Tom,
I would like you to expand on this thought. What I am visualizing seems to be very similar ....cross under=leading with the center of mass. It seems that both movements are being described semantically different....Yet, resulting in the hips being extended out and away from the hill. Which in turn facilitates edge change and 'new' turn engagement.
post #19 of 64
Shen,

When I do cross-under I don't feel I am leading with the CM. Rahter I feel that I initiate the cross-under with a strong retraction and then change edges. I feel like the CM just flows along. For me to truly feel like I am leading with the CM I would have to do a cross-over. It is a subtle difference, at least for me.
post #20 of 64
gonzo,

I am surprised that you see any cross-under in that video. You may be more generous than I am, but I would have to see far more retraction and extension in the legs (and much less movement of the CM side to side) to call it cross-under.

What the heck have they thought you at the ESA?
post #21 of 64
bbarr1000 I think these turns demonstrate enough ability to pass level II. I have a question of you though; What is it that you are trying to demonstrate for us?

The turns you are showing us are a bit to dynamic for beginning parallel skiing and not really dynamic enough to demonstrate a good example of dynamic parallel.

Were you trying to pass level III, I would have more suggestions concerning technique. My concern is that you are able to tone down your demos for beginning parallel or ramp up for a demo of dynamic parallel. I assume that you are close to taking the exam so prep is more important than making last minute changes to your skiing that you will not own by the time of your exam.

Concentrate on skiing good demos and don't change anything before the exam. Don't over tune your skis before the exam. Just ski the same skis you are most use to and ski them the way they were the last time you skied on them. You will do better in your exam.
post #22 of 64
generous, yes. trying to understand what I'm seeing in those left-going turns, what's looking to me like some active extension/retraction but it's asymmetric and that's where the generosity arises. it doesn't look like the crossunder I've seen and felt in my own skiing. it also doesn't have any form of active crossover in the sense of generating angles at the hip and knees. looks like a modified bank-to-bank to me, but again, that's just what I'm seeing. :

I'm also not a brilliant student of MA by any means. just trying to understand the correlations between what I've seen and felt in my own skiing, and what I see in others. it's hard without the feeling component that the other is experiencing. I don't know what BBarr is trying to do here and how it feels to be managing the ski/snow interface with that goal in mind. that's why I think Pierre's post is a very good one, eh?
post #23 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
bbarr1000 I think these turns demonstrate enough ability to pass level II. I have a question of you though; What is it that you are trying to demonstrate for us?

The turns you are showing us are a bit to dynamic for beginning parallel skiing and not really dynamic enough to demonstrate a good example of dynamic parallel.

Were you trying to pass level III, I would have more suggestions concerning technique.
I'm demonstrating my technique on an icy day in the midwest. I'm seeking general feedback about my performance in free skiing for Level II purposes. I would be happy to receive your Level III comments since that is a future goal as well and I'd like to keep in mind what you have picked out from my skiing.

I will tone down the skiing for a basic, open parallel and I suspect the turns will be a bit more dynamic for my free skiing if the conditions are not icy.

Thanks,

Ben
post #24 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbarr1000
I find your observations compelling as well, BigE. I have a few questions.

Does my skiing show signs of excessive upper body rotation which inhibits the edge change for my legs?
You are not getting the early edge since you are not crossing over to get to those edge angles. I agree with TomB.

The rotation is keeping you square to the skis, I see no steering angle being created -- ie no rotation by legs alone happens at turn initiation. IMO, upper/lower body separation is a prerequisite for adding counter.

Exercise: Drag poles with baskets held beside your boots. Skiis are turned independently of upper body. Next phase is to hold the poles infront of you. Then balance them across your wrists. Then go to javelin turns.

A good visual cue for seeing upper/lower body separation is to link pole straps to baskets with one pole across the front of your hips, the other behind you across your butt. This gives you a huge visual cue as to what is happening when you ski.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbarr1000
Specifically, the interpretation that needs to be cleaned up is that the inside leg needs to match more closely the movements of the outside leg? As I see it, the inside leg is diverging outward because I am, perhaps, tipping and engaging it too much?
Yes! Ski the platform. IMO, right tip right is to help stop rotation, which would happen if you lead with the left tip to go right. It's not intended to promote divergence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbarr1000
I think your last sentence here would mirror what I've heard from PSIA folks. Angulation and edge angles are most dramatic at the end of a turn. Once the angulation and edge angles have reached their peak (to control speed and the shape of the turn), then lower them to start the next turn. I just have to place more psychological trust in the fact that I will, indeed, flow from one turn to the next without a skating/stepping technique.
Agreed! You need to allow the CM (body) to cross-over for this to happen. Don't worry, the skiis will catch you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbarr1000
I think this is just a matter of repetition and practicing railroad track turns to trust the flexing, extending and moving laterally forward into the next turn.
Hmmm, I suggest you think about it as flexing, moving laterally, and then extending. Could be a key observation here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbarr1000
What "countering movement" are you referring to? Do you mean my stepping movement, which causes divergence, and perhaps influences counter? Or is there some other countering movement in my skiing? I'm just unclear here.
therusty suggests using more countering here. I was referring to cues that indicate counter that one may misread, and suggested the javelin turn so you would not confuse real counter with a forced/stepped/diverging tip lead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbarr1000
Thanks for your help! Follow-up is appreciated. Thanks!
Cheers!
post #25 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbarr1000
I'm demonstrating my technique on an icy day in the midwest. I'm seeking general feedback about my performance in free skiing for Level II purposes. I would be happy to receive your Level III comments since that is a future goal as well and I'd like to keep in mind what you have picked out from my skiing.

I will tone down the skiing for a basic, open parallel and I suspect the turns will be a bit more dynamic for my free skiing if the conditions are not icy.

Thanks,

Ben
I think your fee skiing on icy terrain is ok. I still want to know if you really can demo what you want, when you want to. That should be your concentration until the exam. I think you will freeski ok.

As for your skiing now. I think that you have good flow with upper and lower body separation. I think you have the ability to control and steer the inside ski and I think you are in reasonable balance. You ski better than 97% of all skiers.

For what to work on in the future, AFTER the exam. I think that the divergence, the pole touch, the upper body rotation and the slight stemming are all symtoms of not maintaining a good stance through pressure control. In short, you are becoming static in the last third of the turn and not maintaining stance through keeping up with the skis. As a result your hips are behind your feet when leading up to your turn initiation. It matters little whether you turn is cross under or over.

You have limited choices for turn initiation in that situation and none of them give you the option of an early edge. You have the option of extending up to flatten the skis. You have the option of shifting weight with CM towards the new outside ski. You have the option of a huge movement of pulling the feet back underneath you. You have the option of upper body rotation with banking You have the option of lateral movement with banking and the combined scissoring into excessive tip lead and you have the option of opening a slight wedge.

You need to work on going from passive ankle flex at the fall line to progressive active ankle flex through the finish phase of your turns. This will allow you to keep your hips up over your feet. This is nothing more than pressure control. There are other things beyond this like active inside leg extension and a pedaling action but they do not come before learning to keep up with the skis.
post #26 of 64
I like Pierre's thoughts.

Get a hold of your division's task requirements and look at the assigned tasks. All of these tasks either as demos or assigned movements lead to better overall skiing but as individual tasks can be daunting. Sometimes they ask you to do them at painfully slow speeds which are even harder. Master these and your free skiing will improve by leaps and bounds.

DC
post #27 of 64
I feel this nagging urge to make some comments about some of the prior posts, just to clarify, so that people reading these don't get confused.

First of all, the pole touch should happen before the skis are flat. If the pole touches when the skis are flat, the snow surface on that side of you is getting closer to you, and the pole touch will be quite jarring. The pole touch happens as the prior turn's edges are in the process of being released, but before they are completely released (flat, or on all 4 edges).

Cross under and skiing taller: If you ski taller in the knees and hips, and more flexed at the ankle, this stacks the skeleton into a positon of more power. If you achieve this position as you are going through the belly of the turn, it will allow you to release by relaxing the old outside, turning (and at that point of the turn, downhill) ski to allow the CM to move across the skis into the direction of the new turn. This is what cross under is. It is NOT extending into the turn as was mentioned, therefore, you do not need any room for extension. The CM will continue to move closer to the feet from about 3/4 of the way through the turn until about 1/4 of the way through the next turn, then the legs start to lengthen from about 1/4 to 3/4. The issue with this is that if you keep extending for too long through the bottom of the turn, you can build up too much pressure on the skis as you come through the bottom of the turn because gravity, speed and pitch are increasing the pressure and then you are adding to it as you extend your legs. The fine point of this, is to recognize when you want to start the new turn, and start what will feel like initiation earlier than you are used to, and to start releasing the pressure as the skis continue to move across the fall line but your mass starts to move more down the fall line than your skis, thereby crossing the perpendicular plane of the skis (the point at which they are flat).

What's great about this is how efficient it is on ice because if done right, you have less pressure on your skis at the bottom of the turn, and your skis are able to carve (move forward) across the hill at a point where you are use to sliding sideways the most. This, and the fact that the CM keeps moving down the hill better is why you see racers making this type of turn.
now back to talking about bbarr.
post #28 of 64
JohnH,

Here's my sequence of events: Flex, flatten, touch, pivot and extend.

FYI: Touch is pole touch, pivot is leg rotation. Touch happens at the same time as flatten. Pivot/extend are simultaneous. Flat skiis at at neutral.

How is your sequence different?
post #29 of 64
BigE,

I am starting to get the sneaking suspicion that you state your sequence of events this way, and in your mind's eye that's how you think about it, and it works. But if you took a frame-by-frame video, you'd see that the pole touch happens after the skis start to flatten, but before they are actually flat on the snow surface.

I'd be very hesitant to tell you to do something different without seeing it, because your mind's eye might interperet it differently, and you end up touoching the pole before you started the release move, in which case the touch would be too early.
It comes down to the word "flatten". Flattening the skis is an even that has duration, but they are only flat for a brief instant. The pole touch also only happens for a brief instant, although the arm swing has more duration. So when you state "flatten", are you referring to beginning to flatten, the point where the skis are flat, or some point in between? DON'T answer. I think this is just an issue of symantics and perception. If the pole touch feels like it's happening at the right time, it probably is. If it were actually happening too late, as I mentioned before, you'd know it, because it would be a jarring experience.
post #30 of 64

More than semantics

Thank you JohnH. I was worried that in the worst case, you were going to rearrange the sequence!: HAHAHA!

I will certainly agree that plant before release is WAY too early. I'll add that it is also too early if turn initiation feels similar to the way people grab the newel post at the bottom of the stairs during a descent and swing themselves around it -- that's body rotation. There is a place for that stuff, but it's not usually needed. The newel post analogy is a bit of an exagerration, but the concept of a fixed point that the whole body rotates about is not... and that is to be avoided.

It's for sure too late if your already on the new edges.

I am compelled to clear up my opinion, because it's not just how it feels to me:

CSIA level III/IV instructors have told me in conversation (some without seeing me ski, so not all comments were specifically tailored to fix my problems) that the pole touch is timed to occur the moment the skis actually ARE flat.

They also said that the poles are in the process of being planted as the skiis are flattening. That indicates the whole process begins before flat. ( I'd suggest the whole process begins at release, and ends with touch down at neutral. )

There is no jarring, as the pole is removed by your outstretched arm (still forwards) as you ski by -- hand is certainly infront of hips... There is no need to linger and keep the pole stuck in the slope. ( Which will "jar" you regardless of timing).

It also matters quite a lot as to where the pole is actually planted. If it's far enough ahead and downhill, then the process can actually help you flatten the skis! Great on steeper slopes.

(This weekend, I will begin swinging my basket forward at the exact moment I release the CM, and parallel to the direction of the released CM.)

I hope I didn't open a huge can of worms, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Cheers!

Added afterthought: Are you actually saying that the pole touch actually happens just before flat, the skis go flat, and the poles are removed just after having gone flat?
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