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Boot fit problem - Page 2

post #31 of 38
Well I saw this early on and read a bit but than ignored it as I suspected it would get tedious. Yet like being drawn to a train wreck here I am out of maudlin curiousity.

First off the lasts for the Performa boot and the XWave boot are exactly the same for the lower shell. Same shapes just different densities of plastics and some features. If the Performa was too loose in a 28 shell than so would the XWave. There is no difference in shells with an even size or half size. Variations for these are all in the liner or footbed or bootboard as others have mentioned. The other boots recommended would tend to indicate you have a fairly wide foot assuming he was on the mark.

I have done the Masterfit U course twice with Jeff. He is one of the most knowledgeable guys out there and one of the most accomplished as well being that he is a board certified pedorthist. He has run the boot tests for ski magazine and now Ski Press for years and is one of the creators, owners and main instructors of Masterfit U. I have recommended him to people on this site and they have had great feedback after wards.

I find him a bit overbearing (and arrogant) and really a little hard to take. For this reason I have warned people about his persona before they went but that has no impact on his knowledge or expertise.

Reading these posts I think it's fair to say that theiceman is also a little overbearing, abrasive and hard to take. I can see this being a match of oil and water or two incompatible types of oil. I certainly have had clients who think they know way more than they do, refuse to listen and focus on problems not solutions. All very annoying and frustrating to deal with.

Although this situation clearly went bad and I have no doubt Jeff's personality contributed in honesty I'm curious how much theiceman contributed to it going wrong. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall and actually heard the exchanges.

I hope it gets resolved but to that end I would try to check the attitude at the door and have any further work done and recommended with an open and cooperative mind. Or just try to get your $800 value out of ranting and alienating everyone on an internet posting board. Your choice really.
post #32 of 38
I also went to see Jeff before buying boots this season. I have long, narrow, flat feet - a very narrow heel with slightly wider forefoot due to bunions. I've had a problem in the past with boots that were too large after they packed out. He recommended I get either Langes (forget which one) or Head FR 9.5 in a size 26 or 26.5. I wear a size 10.5 shoe (ladies). Based on past experiences, when I tried on the Head boots I decided to get a 25 (one finger fit). Yes, they were way too tight the first three days I skied on them (it was painful), but after 25 days of skiing I'm already buckling the 3rd and 4th buckle on the tightest notch. If I had got a size 26 they would have been too big. I don't believe in blaming the boot fitter. I've read statements on here like "get yourself to a good bootfitter and you'll get great boots." The reality is that only you can say how the boot fits on your foot. The boot fitter can only ask you how it feels. You have to develop the knowledge to know how a new boot should feel on your feet. It sucks because gaining this knowledge is an expensive process. How many people who later complain about packed out boots are willing to buy a one to one and half finger fit?
post #33 of 38
How many people who later complain about packed out boots are willing to buy a one to one and half finger fit?
Again let me remind you! Skip the fingers. use a device like a dowel or measuring tool.

If I used my fitter's fingers 1 finger would have been a boot too big.

If I used my fingers, 2 fingers might have been a little smaller but still too big.

If I had used my single finger, It would have been a race fit and I probably would still be too tight for comfort after 2 seasons.

post #34 of 38
Originally posted by TheIceMan:
I took my brand new Salomon X Wave boots to a custom bootfitter in NYC; now the inner boot is much too loose to fit properly, and the boots can't be used for skiing (my feet swim around inside the boots at even the tightest settings, giving me no control over my skis).

Does anyone know of an aftermarket replacement inner boot that I can buy?

Does Salomon sell replacement inner boots?
When John aka ICEMAN came to me, his chief complaint was that he couldn’t find boots that fit.

When John came for his initial visit (from Queens by the way, he told me that he has been skiing a “Salomon Performa 7.0” size 28.0 for, I think, 6 years. John measured a size 28 on the Mondopoint sizing scale. John’s foot pronated slightly so the foot would shorten maybe1-2 mm. Not short enough to downsize to a 27 shell. John is 50 plus and slightly overweight, he said he was pretty happy with the old fit but was having trouble finding new boots. John’s low volume foot shape looked like a harder fit, yet he was comfortable in the old boots, which are wider than the new X-wave boots. After John purchased X-wave boots he called me to say that he thinks he needs to buy the next size because his toes were cramped. Even after the footbeds were inserted into the boots he said the foot felt tight. I explained that that would break-in. If John said the boots were LOOOSE I would have NEVER let him leave, especially new boots which could be returned for different ones. I know, some of you boot heads are thinking “stick him in a Lange that would fit his foot great”. But not his leg shape plus he said he was comfortable in the much wider, old, 7.0 boots.

After a day of skiing in the boot John called to say his boots were loose. I added a 1/8” side shim of a heat moldable EVA (foam) and sculpted the line with my tools. This material usually yields a nice snug comfortable fit. He left the office happy (or so I thought). Little did I know, he wanted to sue me in small claims court? If I knew that was the case, I wouldn’t have added padding to the side of the liners, would have sold them on ebay as skied once, given him a refund, taken a lose and washed my hands clean.

As far as my prices and fees go. When anyone calls for an appointment we go over pricing for a consultation and the extra charge for boot work. We also explain that I only work on ski boots that have my footbeds and for which I always perform a stance alignment. No ski boot leaves the office loose or too tight or if the boot sole is not flat and/or if the knees are aligned improperly. If at anytime John didn’t like what I said he could have concealed his order.

My practice is mostly fabricating medical orthotics. I’m often the last hope for pain relief for many of my patients as well as skiers. I work on ski boots because its fun, it brings me back to my roots. I’ve been skiing for 44 years, fitting boots for over 28 years, skied over 1500 pairs of ski boots while working for “Ski magazine” for 18 years and now “Ski Press” for the past 3. As part of my job I’ve measure thousands of internal molds for ski boots, condudted numerous on snow tests including a warmth study on socks and boot fit. I also did a study on how the cuff affects ski performance. My favorite study was stance alignment that shows how most boots affect your stance differently and how some boots are better for knock-kneed skiers or bow-legged ones. In addition to the testing I consult with my colleagues at Masterfit University to determine how each boot fits and balances.

With some people you just can’t win. John could have canceled his order at anytime within the first two week before he came to pick-up his inserts. I think that if I fit john for a smaller size he would be writing everyone that his boots are to tight. I don’t think even

Hindsight would have helped me. I’m not g-d. I’m just a boot fitter who try’s to make his clients happy. It’s just too bad that when someone has a problem with me they’re not man or women enough to talk to me about it, but even worse, to slam me hiding behind a pseudo name.

Happy skiing, Ban summer, spring skiing rules, powders great too.

Jeff Rich
post #35 of 38
Thanks for posting your side of the story.

So all you did was add a side shim?

How would that make a boot looser or ruin it?

The X-Waves definately pack out but not that quick.
post #36 of 38
I have been lurking around this site for years now since I met DC at a Masterfit U. course in Tahoe. Sometimes you really just need to count to five in discussions before you let emotions get the better part of you . I have counted to 25 on this thread. I am a close friend and colleuge of JR . I too have been threatened in a law suite over a boot fit, after the person skied the boots for a 1 1/2 seasons. I too am accused of being a rip off and expensive periodically . First of all if we, boot guys, were trying to rip people off we would not be in the ski industry , or in the service end of it for that matter .

Try to remember why we ski, I thought it was to have FUN!!!!!! None of us are perfect , we all have our quirks, but deep down every one has a redeeming silver lining . Keep it real !

[ March 10, 2004, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: dchan ]
post #37 of 38
A foam liner would probally support your foot better than the Intuition liner would.

I don't know why he is so unhappy. In hind-sight no off the shelf boot liner would work for him. An aftermarket foam liner is the way to go.

John I will be happy to refund the money for the orthoitc and any boot work charges. As far as your boots go. They are still fine and foam liner would do you a solid. If you told be before I applied the foam pads on you boots my services su-ked I would have given you a full refund. You could have stop the work a any time by saying I'm not happy. You never said anything.

As far as going to another ski shop for custom liners that would be great. I will however call my boot fitting friends in the greater NY,VT, NH, Co, Ma, Ut and plus other and alert them of you and your problem so they won't have the same problem I did with you.

John you need to speak up if you have a problem to me. After todays phone call you need to calm down and talk to people not at them.

John you found me on this web site because my cleints we're talking positive about me here. I'm sorry you had such bad results.

If you wish to solve this issue call-me and talk to me not yell at me. I can get many aftermarket liners for your boots.

Happy skiing and good luck


Most time boot fitting is fun. Times like these it gets pretty tiring. Boot fitting isn't easy sometimes. Dealing with some skiers foot problems can be even harder.

[ March 10, 2004, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: dchan ]
post #38 of 38
The liners ruined by the bootfitter, hardly. I have had problems with Salomon liners like this since they came out with the Wave series. These liners do not hold any kind of foot shape unless your foot fills the entire shell. Before ripping on the bootfitter I would be getting these back to the shop and have them try to deal with Salomon to get them replaced. This is a COMMON problem with the Wave liners.
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