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Does Ski Patrol Enforce Enough??? - Page 3

post #61 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by fressen
Avalanche control, marking hazards, opening/closing terrain are not policing tactics. They are good solid fundemental ski area management actions on one side of the pond or the other. I, in no way stated that Ski patrol and their daily tasks are not necessary. The question was asked "do patrollers patrol enough and ENFORCE enough?" "Enforcement" indicates managing skiers, not managing conditions. Skiers do NOT need to be managed. People with malicious intent do. In which case fine, any mountain employee should have the right to escort the offender to the local law enfocement. Your "dunking bullies" have malicious intent. Someone skiing fast, taking risks and chances does not. Why is this so hard for you to wrap your head around.
I AM right. Nice try though.
Strangley enough, I was a lifeguard at one time too. Sometimes its damn funny watching those bullies dunk people. Against the rules, but funny. Nobody drowns at the local ski area.
You said, and I quote, "Ski patrol should be there to administer not prevent the need for first aid."

You are wrong.

Now you say, and I quote "Strangley enough, I was a lifeguard at one time too. Sometimes its damn funny watching those bullies dunk people. Against the rules, but funny. Nobody drowns at the local ski area."

That is an idiotic statement.
post #62 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston
No.

The standard of behavior in the civilized world is not "anything that's not a crime is fine." There are other standards of behavior, that are enforced in other ways. Almost every business -- particularly one in which there are safety hazards -- makes "rules" that aren't "laws" (i.e. that aren't made by the government and enforceable with criminal sanctions). "No running on the pool deck," is a particularly obvious example.


Perhaps. Probably not. At a western ski area, it almost certainly would not be trespassing.


Cite two examples (one left, and one right).


Not to put too fine a point on it, but an appeal to the efficacy of Darwinism and evolution justifies no laws (the strong kill the weak and take their stuff), no health care (take the disease and accident prone out of the gene pool), no charity ....
As far as trespassing and citing examples, I've witnessed it for one at Silver Mountain in Idaho. People ski the power lines down into the valley. This is property owned by the ski area. Sherrif was right there at the bottom waiting. As for myself, I was escorted off of the mountain for ducking a rope. The ski area manager threatened to have us arrested for trespassing. Instead he took our passes and gave us the boot. This was probably 15 years ago.
Also, if its private property, even national forest land, and the area you want to ski is closed, and you are not welcome in that specific area, absolutely, that is trespassing -if the mountain management so chooses to persue it.
You sound very much like another one of these people who has never experienced the freedom of skiing across the pond. My reference to Darwinism is this. If people are going to take big risks, make stupid decisions, let them pay the consequences no matter what the price. If they come through unscathed, let them enjoy the thrill. Its a school of thought that DOES work. I witnessed it first hand for a number of years. We do not need a paternal system taking pro-active, pre-emptive, or preventitive messures to control skiers. When one realizes the financial burden, and the legal burden rest only their shoulders, one will make better decisions.
If your definition of the civilized world is North America, you need to get out more.
post #63 of 80
Light'en up Jstraw. Without any understanding of maybe the circumstances ....... Oh, good god why am I even responding to this. You were one of the kids who got dunked weren't you?
post #64 of 80
Truley, who is the idiot? The person who has experienced both sides of the coin, or the dogmatic moron who has experienced only the one?
post #65 of 80
You know all about me. You're amazing. Yes, I'm one of the sheep. Right. If that makes you happy...
post #66 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by fressen
As far as trespassing and citing examples
Okay, you cited one. Actually, that's at best a half, because there's no indication the guy was prosecuted. That's all beside the point of the thread, anyway.

Quote:
If people are going to take big risks, make stupid decisions, let them pay ...
You seem to be missing a fundamental element of the discussion, or at least my part of it: it's oriented toward the danger of collisions. I'm less concerned about the bozo running into people than the people who get hit.

Okay, on reviewing your earlier posts, I may be wrong. I think you do understand that, put seem to take the position that there's no meaningful distincition between a person who gets run into and the person who runs into him.

If we want to incite a Darwinian outcome, there's something to this. The meaningful distinction isn't who was skiing like a maniac, but who got hurt. Generally, it's the smaller, weaker person, with the genes we don't want around anyway. If the person who gets wiped out is a child (maybe good genes, but doesn't have an opportunity to mature), nature still assures an appropriate outcome, from the point of view of improving the gene pool. The child's parent -- if large and strong enough -- will simply kill the person who ran him down. Though the child's genes get knocked out, the parent is free to continue to breed, and a Darwinian outcome is preserved.

Quote:
If your definition of the civilized world is North America, you need to get out more.
It's not. Though you seem to be trying to convince me otherwise.
post #67 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston
Well, yeah ... there's the solution.

If you want to avoid collisions, don't allow these people to ski: (i) beginners, (ii) intermediates and (iii) children. Okay, okay, I've mischaracterized ... you can allow them, but if they get piled into by an out-of-control rider, tell them they are at fault and suggest they appreciate the moment of clarity they experienced as they were flattened. At best, it might be a sort of a a beautiful, near-death, escape from the body.

By the same token, so long as we're removing restrictions, maybe we'd be better off removing the restrictions that constrain the people who get hit (or their parents), so that their reaction might allow the reckless riders to enjoy a moment of clarity as well.
I didn't mention anything about not allowing anybody anywhere. Your words not my'ne. What I was saying is that skiing is not a benign game of tag at the local park. It IS a dangerous sport with inherent risks. Be aware of them and let your actions be guided by the knowledge of those risks. Parents, teach your kids propper respect for the sport -Demonstrate that respect.
Its a risky sport, if you're uncomfortable with that stay home and play chess on-line.
post #68 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by fressen
I didn't mention anything about not allowing anybody anywhere.
That's why I said "Okay, okay, I've mischaracterized ... you can allow them, but ...."

One trick: you have to read beyond the first sentence to get the full meaning.

Quote:
What I was saying is that skiing is not a benign game of tag at the local park. It IS a dangerous sport with inherent risks.
I miss the logical step where you establish that it is therefore good to make it more, rather than less, dangerous.

I also find it odd that you associate this sort of extreme dog-eat-dog Darwinian libertarianism with Europe. Sounds more like Justus Township.
post #69 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fressen
wbroun,
they enforce too much. ...

...You yourself (wbroun) have stated that skiing is not a dangerous or hazerdous sport, why the need for more enforcement?...
Just asking the question, Fressen. To quote the thread: "Does Ski Patrol Enforce Enough???" Hmm. Interrogative statement. Three question marks.
post #70 of 80
I wonder why they can do it in Europe with more crowded slopes and no ski nazi "safety patrol"?

Those of you who find skiing too dangerous have the easiest option of all: QUIT.

That option makes it possible for the rest of us to enjoy ski areas that provide experiences beyond the superficial and co-dependent.
post #71 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
...
Those of you who find skiing too dangerous have the easiest option of all: QUIT.
.
u think anyone reading epic finds skiing too dangerous? you drunk?
post #72 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstraw
Acceptance of people skiing out of control, recklessly or deliberately endangering others?

I don't get it.
Gonz, you still haven't responded to this.
post #73 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstraw
Gonz, you still haven't responded to this.
slow down, Jack. check here (Post #46 above):

http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=46
post #74 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
no, acceptance as true -- by a vast majority of skiers -- of the alleged fact that there is such a problem with out-of-control or reckless snowriders, or deliberate endangerment of others. I'm not sure that the majority of us would accept the allegation as true.

I know that I don't.
I haven't said anything about the scope of the problem. I'll gladly stipulate that the scope is very small if you'll stipulate that it's not non-existent.

Or do you claim that there are *no* such skiers or boarders?

If you don't make that claim, as small as their numbers may be, do you think when such actions are verified that the perps should be ignored?
post #75 of 80
"I also find it odd that you associate this sort of extreme dog-eat-dog Darwinian libertarianism with Europe. Sounds more like Justus Township." Swollenjohnson

I fail to see you interperetation. Justus Township?

I DO see how you, who as of yet have displayed ZERO familiarity with the way other coutries run their ski areas, can not understand that there may be an equally effective way of ski area management. Placing the responsibility on the shoulders of the skiers, not the areas, patrollers can be done. It does in no way equate to anarchy on the mountain.
Unless you do have some understanding, and experience with what I'm talking about, stand up and walk away from your computer. You really don't have much to offer, other than an extremely myopic OPINION.
Why don't I want to make things safer? As someone who has been here and there, and seen other ways, I've come to understand that America is really good over-sanitizing, and over-riskproofing even the most mundane activities. Your point about different business environments in the US and their rules is a good example of this.
Look, I think I stated it quite clearly, in my first post. There is a DIFFERENT and EQUAL way (phillosophy) of managing a ski area. If you ever get the chance to ski Europe, if you're not too scared to take that chance, you will not see collision carnage all over the mountain. You will see people skiing quite aggressively, and beginners sharing the same slopes -at times. If you pay close attention, you will notice that the skiers are quite alert to whats happening around them -one result of driving on the Autobahn (whoever said good drivers make good skiers was absolutely right). You will not see any greater skier/skier collision stats.
post #76 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstraw
I haven't said anything about the scope of the problem. I'll gladly stipulate that the scope is very small if you'll stipulate that it's not non-existent.

Or do you claim that there are *no* such skiers or boarders?

If you don't make that claim, as small as their numbers may be, do you think when such actions are verified that the perps should be ignored?

you're not really serious with this post are you? come on, Jack. :
post #77 of 80
[quote=fressen Look, I think I stated it quite clearly, in my first post. There is a DIFFERENT and EQUAL way (phillosophy) of managing a ski area. If you ever get the chance to ski Europe, if you're not too scared to take that chance, you will not see collision carnage all over the mountain. You will see people skiing quite aggressively, and beginners sharing the same slopes -at times. If you pay close attention, you will notice that the skiers are quite alert to whats happening around them -one result of driving on the Autobahn (whoever said good drivers make good skiers was absolutely right). You will not see any greater skier/skier collision stats.[/QUOTE]

Never been skiing in Europe, so I guess sliders over there are just more civilized than here in the east. It must be utopia that you can trust your fellow slider that much. Sign me up...I'm all over those last minute Swiss Air bookings on Orbit.

I wish it were the same here in the east but it's not. I see it every time I go out, and I mean every time. Not collisions but reckless actions, near misses by people seeking the "thrill", or young children endangered by the too fast and inexperienced. Let people experience skiing/boarding the way they wish as long as they are responsible, respectful, conscientious sliders. What needs to be done is curb the few that neither know their limits, respect people, the rules of civility (i know I'll catch crap on this one), and the rules of the mountain.
post #78 of 80
My post is completely serious, Gonzo.
post #79 of 80
then I'd say you're not much of a logician, debater or thinker. sorry, but that's how I see it.

your post that I questioned is childish. that's why I thought you were kidding.
post #80 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_j
Is it their responsibility to do so?

Don't answer off the cuff, go find the real answer.

I won't accept "Its always has been" Because that is simply not true.
Jeff is right, go find out. The patrol works for the Mountain, so whatever the mountain wants the patrol to do is the guide.

Different mountains are focused on different things. The only thing the patrol has in common is that NSP provides a first aid course. The rest is up the Mountain operations.
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