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what are your thoughts on private coaching outside a ski school? - Page 3

post #61 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stache
As I've oft stated in other threads, in almost every ski school I've taught in, the best instructor was not PSIA certified but also the least of the instructor pool was also not certified. You would not know the difference until AFTER the lesson. By Demanding a Certified Pro you are not guaranteed of getting the best, but you are guaranteed of not getting the least.
here, here.

in reference to Rusty's "pond scum" and tire slashing remarks, I don't believe that he was indicating that he would do such a thing; but, I don't think some other instructors would be so circumspect if they found someone on the mountain taking money away from them.
post #62 of 98
Thread Starter 
ski professor, now I am unethical? O.K. I won't get all worked up either.

I am not looking to walk into the ski area lodge or lift line and hang a sign around my neck "For Hire". I am talking about working with someone on a one to one basis that may be a friend, client, aquaintance, referal who has no association with your ski area or ski school. I would simply bring them to your ski area and purchase two lift tickets, some lunch at your lodge, a few beers at the bar after, and maybe a doodle at the shop. Should you not want that revenue I will take it to some area that would appreciate the business that they would not have otherwise received? Does this seem unreasonable to you?

where would you draw the line of ethical?

Is it o.k. for two people to discuss skiing technique on a chairlift or within ski area boundries?

Is it o.k. for two people to do traverses on a ski run?

Is it o.k. for two people to follow each other down a run?

Is it o.k. for one person to give another person $5 for gas for the ride up to the resort?

Is it o.k. for the same person to give the other $20, $50, $250, $500 down in town to ski with them that day?

Where do you draw the line? No money changed hands at the resort! and don't look now but if two people are skiing together chances are they might be talking about skiing. Is it worth hiring private agent skiers to police the ski runs looking for anyone who might be working on their own skiing without, heaven forbid, giving you a piece of the action? Will you kick them off the hill, break their legs?...

Is it unethical to help somebody with their skiing? Would your ski area allow me to balance someones boots for them if I taught for you? Is this person taking money out of your ski areas hands or adding to it's bottom line by purchasing lift tickets, food, etc.?
post #63 of 98
Thread Starter 
Let's make an assumption here that the "freelance" instructor in question is an examiner level PSIA member, a national D team level skier, a skilled boot fitter and tuner. Not a bartender or parking lot attendant.

Let's make the assumption this said freelancer encourages his clients to take group lessons with a good ski school, encourages them to ski with ski camps and workshops. though he/she recognizes their need for more than a typical ski school can offer and fullfills that need by addressing their equipment alignment needs, tuning evaluation, equipment choices, specific physical needs and adjustments.

Let's assume this freelancer is not complaining about wages, or not bashing ski schools (just the predicament they are in from no fault of their own), not taking business from any ski school (believe it or not there are some people who are not satisfied with the status quo ski school lessons) they want more. Believe it!

Now let's see what direction the thread takes? What are the primary concerns besides liability, ethics, and quality of product?

I do not feel the way I am proposing is ethically wrong and talking to fellow instructors from local areas I have had nothing but support.

Awhile ago I did my own camps called "Synergy Camps" which were two day camps at different areas which focused on boot balancing, before and after videos, and technique instruction. they were very well received and the local areas were very accomandating even giving me private rooms and use of their viewing equipment. Oh and most of the attendees were PSIA ski instructors. Was this unethical?

Unfortunately/fortunately I got too busy with the shop to continue these camps but have thought about reserrecting the concept since I have had little luck selling the concept to integrate boot balancing into a ski school at a ski resort.
post #64 of 98
Bud,

Let's assume you own the resort. Would you be happy to just forget about a $600.00 all day private?

Let's assume your a pro at the resort. Would you be happy to see someone pocketing the cash. Any way you spin it it is potentially a lesson that might have come to the local ski school.

As far as the pond scum and tire slashing goes. Let me rephrase my comment. I think anyone who accepts some consideration for teaching skiing at a resort where they are not employed is the lowest of the low. Do you like that better?

I also question the legality. Remember I said question.

Tires slashed? I wouldn't but as Lenny has alluded to we have a few fairly wild snowboard instructors at our place. Do I think they might take exception to someone working under the table at our place? Yes I do. I didn't say I support it,however, I assure you it is a reality.

You mention value add services such as tuning, alignment, equipment, etc. You don't think there are many pros who do this? I just met a client at a local shop this evening and helped them with footbeds, Nordica skis, and Nordica boots. On average for the past five years I have made twenty such trips with clients. Recently a "Bear" came to ski with me for three days at two resorts. Our first evening was spent at a local bootfitter mitigating an issue. When he wanted to ski bumps at Mary Jane what did I do? I called the SSD and got on the Winter Park payroll.

Why get on the payroll? Because you and I both know it's the right thing to do.

I posed an earlier question that I will repeat. I think it is cogent. I am sure your a fine teacher. When did you last attend a PSIA educational event?
post #65 of 98
If resorts are right to limit outside instructing because it infringes on their revenues, does that mean that, when I pack a lunch, rather than buying it from the resort cafe, that I am pond scum for stealing from the resort?
post #66 of 98
Thread Starter 
Rusty Guy

to answer your question the last PSIA clinic I attended was one I was invited and paid to clinic on boot alignment. and before that PSIA paid me to clinic the Western Demo Team, and before that I was paid to give various other educational clinics. I guess the last actual event I paid for to attend was the National academy in St. Anton.

Let me ask you this?... What does it matter? Do you think that one can not teach effectively if they do not attend a clinic once or twice per year?

lead, follow, or get outta the way brother! You are stickin up the pond. you just are not gettin it are you?...

Are you O.K. with ESA, are you O.K. with Eski clinics, are you O.K. with any other type event that doesn't pay the ski school but brings new patrons to the ski resort and buys lodging, food, tickets, meeting rooms, etc. but does not put money into the ski school coffers? Answer that question brother!!!????

careful now...
post #67 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossus178
If resorts are right to limit outside instructing because it infringes on their revenues, does that mean that, when I pack a lunch, rather than buying it from the resort cafe, that I am pond scum for stealing from the resort?
I have seen resorts limit locations where one can eat food brought in. I have seen this less lately.

A concern that I have is that many resorts seem to run close to the profit/loss line. Winters such as certain parts of the country are experiencing are said to push a number of resorts over the edge. As a consultant to businesses, I see a number of ways that resorts, ski schools, and other parts of the industry could take on effective business processes to improve the health of the individual organizations as well as the industry as a whole. For me, that's a big part of what this thread is about...
post #68 of 98
Thread Starter 
Don't let Rusty Guy catch you eating that bag lunch....he might slash your tires

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossus178
If resorts are right to limit outside instructing because it infringes on their revenues, does that mean that, when I pack a lunch, rather than buying it from the resort cafe, that I am pond scum for stealing from the resort?
post #69 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman
Rusty Guy

to answer your question the last PSIA clinic I attended was one I was invited and paid to clinic on boot alignment. and before that PSIA paid me to clinic the Western Demo Team, and before that I was paid to give various other educational clinics. I guess the last actual event I paid for to attend was the National academy in St. Anton.

Let me ask you this?... What does it matter? Do you think that one can not teach effectively if they do not attend a clinic once or twice per year?

lead, follow, or get outta the way brother! You are stickin up the pond. you just are not gettin it are you?...

Are you O.K. with ESA, are you O.K. with Eski clinics, are you O.K. with any other type event that doesn't pay the ski school but brings new patrons to the ski resort and buys lodging, food, tickets, meeting rooms, etc. but does not put money into the ski school coffers? Answer that question brother!!!????

careful now...
and the dates of these events?

Why does it matter? Do you qustion whether it is important to remain current? One or two clinics a year? Personally I think it is important for instructors to clinic once or twice a week. Why? To question and be questioned, to ponder, to consider, to interact with ones peers.

You'll have to help me with your urging to lead, follow, etc. I don't get the nexus to your original question or how it is germaine to the discussion. You are the one who posed the question about "private coaching". You have my opinion and it's clear you don't agree with my opinion. If you are suggesting "private coaching" is the coming wave in ski teaching then it strikes me California must differ from Colorado. I know of no resort around here that will welcome your enterprise.

Again, I'll reiterate the USFS MAY object, resort management may object, and ownership may object.

Brother....... I'll do my very best to be careful.The ESA events were all done with the expressed support of individual resorts. I don't think any of the resorts that hosted events had any concern about which line item the revenue flowed to. I think the primary difference in an epicski event is the fact that it is viewed as incremental income due to it being prepackaged. What resort is going to turn away fifty folks during a quiet period?

I also know from talking to ESA organizers in years past the question of indemnity occured. Go approach a resort risk manager or CFO and the first question that will pop into his mind is liability and whether you have sufficient coverage.

If a resort tells you to start bringing clients then you have my whole hearted support in the venture.

You seem to be dabbling in several realms that I suggest are worlds apart. The first is giving a lesson to a "friend" for gas money, the next a lesson for some consideration that is exchanged off site, eventually you mention large scale events such as the ESA.
post #70 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossus178
If resorts are right to limit outside instructing because it infringes on their revenues, does that mean that, when I pack a lunch, rather than buying it from the resort cafe, that I am pond scum for stealing from the resort?
Now we're running dangerously close to a real Pandora's Box. For areas leasing land from the Forest Service, they are usually granted sole rights to concessions and other services associated with operating the resort within the boundaries of said property.

I'm not a attorney, but I think the interpretation of the law is large enough to "drive a truck through". What constitutes a business transaction? Is it revenue changing hands? Or, is it the delivery of services? Depending how a court interprets "business" and "business transaction" the issue is a very slippery snake.

Carrying the SS logic forward, to truly protect their interests, ski areas need to clearly state on the contract (lift ticket) with the customer that under NO circumstances will ANY person teach\coach or provide another individual with information on technique while on said property unless they are an employee of the ski area. If such a condition is made known, then anyone purchasing a ticket must abide by the conditions regardless of where the instruction was "purchased". Now... there's a PR nightmare!

Selectively enforcing SS rules and not doing the same for Subway selling sandwiches, which are brought on premises to be eaten leaves the door open for challenge. How about the ski shop down the street that rents equipment for use on the ski area's land? Using the Forest Service logic, that too is illegal and unethical.

This whole issue is ripe for a legal challenge and determined individuals who want to carve new ground.

PS. If ski areas could forego the millions they spend on marketing to get people to the slopes, I think they would instantaneously pull the rug out from under the staff pros if a huge contingent of freelancers brought in more business than the area's marketing. ...this could get interesting...
post #71 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh
I have seen resorts limit locations where one can eat food brought in. I have seen this less lately.

A concern that I have is that many resorts seem to run close to the profit/loss line. Winters such as certain parts of the country are experiencing are said to push a number of resorts over the edge. As a consultant to businesses, I see a number of ways that resorts, ski schools, and other parts of the industry could take on effective business processes to improve the health of the individual organizations as well as the industry as a whole. For me, that's a big part of what this thread is about...
Steve,

You would be interested in Colorado Ski Academy.

In short, they are going into the Denver Schools and bringing hundreds of kids to Front Range resorts. The last I heard they are bussing kids to Eldora, WP, and Keystone. There may be others.

How many kids? We have had days with nearly 300 children. I have heard some very wild numbers in terms of margins. I also heard a rumor, and I want to stress rumor, they are going to exclusively utilize Eldora due to proximics next season.

I don't know where we will get the weekday personnel to handle the numbers on a regular basis.
post #72 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
Steve,

You would be interested in Colorado Ski Academy.

In short, they are going into the Denver Schools and bringing hundreds of kids to Front Range resorts. The last I heard they are bussing kids to Eldora, WP, and Keystone. There may be others.

How many kids? We have had days with nearly 300 children. I have heard some very wild numbers in terms of margins. I also heard a rumor, and I want to stress rumor, they are going to exclusively utilize Eldora due to proximics next season.

I don't know where we will get the weekday personnel to handle the numbers on a regular basis.
Thanks for this, Rusty, I will see where I can find out more about the program. It may force some re-thinking of the types of instructors, schedules, etc.

That wasn't hard!
post #73 of 98
Thread Starter 
O.K. Big R, I guess I am not current by your standards so I guess I could pay my back dues amnisty program and take a clinic or two from the latest hip guys who will tell me what I have probably read or heard before, then they will ask me to take a look at their canting, we'll do some bonding and I will be out some cash. Would that make you feel better or make a lick of difference in what I propose doing? Please....

Would your ski school hire me as a 1099 subcontractor to provide a service? (of course only if I passed your criteria). Would any ski school accept the liability of an instructor assessing perscribing and balancing/planing boot soles? If your answer is no...does that mean it is not a viable service? Does that mean it has to be separated like church and state? this is the jest of my question. If they won't let you join them, beat'em.

PMTS, NASTC, and others like them are the leading edge because they recognize the importance of this service and integrate into their programs. Resort risk management doesn't know how to broach the issue. Deep pockets are afraid of a process that helps skiers ski better, is safer for their knee joints, and would set their ski school apart. Yet it is universally accepted and proven to have profound positive affects on one's skiing performance. And yet these same resorts build huge jumps, rails, halppipes, and other obstacles that are causing countless injuries.....go figure?

So I ask you in your infinite wisdom what is the answer?

I am not looking to rock the boat or start a whole ground swell of freelance instructors.

I just want to do what I do well. Unfortunately, I do not fit your mold Rusty.
post #74 of 98
ummmmm just a thought... but I think here in Oz there was some guy who was a lawyer & forced the ski school to allow his instructor to teach him on their mountain.......

Urban legend has it at a place called Falls Creek.....

Anyone know the story?
post #75 of 98
Ski Professor. I surely didn't mean to insult YOU, but the comment was right on the money for that particular ski area. And there are many of them like it here in the East.

I have never understood why instructors have not organized some type of collective bargaining unit.
post #76 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman
O.K. Big R, I guess I am not current by your standards so I guess I could pay my back dues amnisty program and take a clinic or two from the latest hip guys who will tell me what I have probably read or heard before, then they will ask me to take a look at their canting, we'll do some bonding and I will be out some cash. Would that make you feel better or make a lick of difference in what I propose doing? Please....

Would your ski school hire me as a 1099 subcontractor to provide a service? (of course only if I passed your criteria). Would any ski school accept the liability of an instructor assessing perscribing and balancing/planing boot soles? If your answer is no...does that mean it is not a viable service? Does that mean it has to be separated like church and state? this is the jest of my question. If they won't let you join them, beat'em.

PMTS, NASTC, and others like them are the leading edge because they recognize the importance of this service and integrate into their programs. Resort risk management doesn't know how to broach the issue. Deep pockets are afraid of a process that helps skiers ski better, is safer for their knee joints, and would set their ski school apart. Yet it is universally accepted and proven to have profound positive affects on one's skiing performance. And yet these same resorts build huge jumps, rails, halppipes, and other obstacles that are causing countless injuries.....go figure?

So I ask you in your infinite wisdom what is the answer?

I am not looking to rock the boat or start a whole ground swell of freelance instructors.

I just want to do what I do well. Unfortunately, I do not fit your mold Rusty.
Bud,

Still no dates....was it a year, five years, ten years?

Again, you asked my opinion and I gave you my answer.

If your asking do I believe in boot alignment? Yes of course.

In reality I have done at Eldora something akin to what you have described. I think Lenny, Bob Barnes and any Eldora instructor will attest to this.

Two years ago I approached management about selling ski lessons to customers in advance. In return I asked for a commission structure. Due to the resort having the future value of the money I asked for the product to be deeply discounted. I win, the customer wins, and the resort wins.

I begin marketing the product in the fall. I set up a Nordica booth at the busiest health club in Boulder. The booth is open while a former US Ski team member (Amy Bervey-wife of Warren Miller producer Max Bervey) holds a six week ski conditioning class. I market my lessons and Nordica equipment. Dennis Meeker who is a "Bear" manages the best shop in Boulder and he gives away free ski tunes and donated a pair of Nordica boots for a raffle.

I have not been to a line-up in a long time. I'm booked typically two weeks in advance on my scheduled days. I generate my own lesson business thru sales as opposed to waiting for walk-up business.

My pay rate is no secret. In the scenario you describe the lesson costs the customer $70.00 per hour which is about what folks in Boulder pay a trainer at a gym. I make $29.50 with the commission. If I work hard and schedule well I can have a gross, without tips, of $180.00 per day

I don't accept tips. I ask customers to buy their kids a gift, give it to charity, or reinvest in lessons. Crazy? You wouldn't believe how many folks then feel it only fair to "reinvest". It works well in Boulder.

I had a Bear who wanted a few days of Bumps. I called the SSD at another resort, said I'm bringing business, described my pay scheme at Eldora, and we worked out a similar deal.

So that is my mold. Could I make more money as an independent. I'm not sure once you consider insurance for the business and/or the exposure I might face vis a vis worker's comp.

Instructors planing boot soles? I think it would be a wonderful and novel idea. Do I think a resort would welcome the liability? No. Why should they when the woods are full of folks who provide this service. It creates a firewall to have it done off premise. I don't say I agree I merely suggest that is reality.

I cannot take a client into our terrain park. Why? PSIA-RM has established a multi-tiered accredidation. The smart guys in our ski school ran off and got the accred and no stay very busy with freestyle camps/ clients, etc.

Liability is a reality.
post #77 of 98
I don't think there's an easy answer here. The student's want the best lesson they can get at a fair price. The resort's incur the cost of running/operating the mountain and want the revenue to support these costs. Resort pros want the exclusive right to teach the students who receive instruction at their resorts in order to protect their jobs and income. Free lancers want the ability to bring clients in from the "outside", purchase time(lift fees) from the resorts and teach their clients without being hassled by resort staff. I think given the right circumstances, there's actually room for everybody in this debate. That said, if resorts provided quality instruction at a decent price and effectively market their services, they'd have little to worry about with regard to free lancers.

I know everybody has raised liability and insurance issues here, but I don't see that as a factor. Anyone can purchase "Personal Liability" coverage at a reasonable cost. If I was a ski pro, I'd carry some of this coverage, free lancer or not.
post #78 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach13
I know everybody has raised liability and insurance issues here, but I don't see that as a factor. Anyone can purchase "Personal Liability" coverage at a reasonable cost. If I was a ski pro, I'd carry some of this coverage, free lancer or not.
Doesn't the average homeowners policy cover it?

You mention operating expenses for resorts. Let's not forget capital expenditures.
post #79 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
Doesn't the average homeowners policy cover it?
I think it would to a certain extent, but the $$ amount is limited. Personal Liability coverage works as a rider on top of your current coverage, usually car insurance since that exposes the greatest liabilty. It basically covers and protects above and beyond current coverage and is relatively inexpensive. Due to my investment properties and my coaching duties I carry a $10 million coverage which costs me about $250 per year.
post #80 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
Doesn't the average homeowners policy cover it?

You mention operating expenses for resorts. Let's not forget capital expenditures.
I don't think homeowners covers business liabilities. When I tried to get insurance for a ski school which was unafiliated with a mountain, I couldn't find it at any price.
The high capital cost of a ski area is actually an opprtunity for independents. It forces them to talk to anyoe who has a plan to bring more business through the door.

John
post #81 of 98
Bud you know the biz in and out as you state, was this post just to create dissent? I think the point of one of your workrers selling aglinment to one of your customers on there own time, but in your shop while pocketing the money is a fair question. What would you do?
post #82 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colossus178
If resorts are right to limit outside instructing because it infringes on their revenues, does that mean that, when I pack a lunch, rather than buying it from the resort cafe, that I am pond scum for stealing from the resort?
Actually, I don't think ski areas limit outside instruction, they just don't allow permanent competing ski schools on the property. ESA, Cardenali Ski Camps and NASTC all operate at ski areas, and I'm sure they all have agreements with those areas. Ski clubs and tour companies sometimes bring their own instructors.

John
post #83 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
The question involved operating outside of ski areas.

I asked the question whether it is on private land or Forest Service domain. Is it legal for an individual to operate a business enterprise on federal land?

Is permitting an issue?
I think that whole Forest Service issue is a red herring. The FS leases exclusive rights to ski areas, but those areas can subcontract out parts of those businesses. The situation is really no different than at areas built on private property. Why woud I allow a competitor to operate at my area if I had exclusive rights?

John
post #84 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
Bud,



Two years ago I approached management about selling ski lessons to customers in advance. In return I asked for a commission structure. Due to the resort having the future value of the money I asked for the product to be deeply discounted. I win, the customer wins, and the resort wins.

I begin marketing the product in the fall. I set up a Nordica booth at the busiest health club in Boulder. The booth is open while a former US Ski team member (Amy Bervey-wife of Warren Miller producer Max Bervey) holds a six week ski conditioning class. I market my lessons and Nordica equipment. Dennis Meeker who is a "Bear" manages the best shop in Boulder and he gives away free ski tunes and donated a pair of Nordica boots for a raffle.

I have not been to a line-up in a long time. I'm booked typically two weeks in advance on my scheduled days. I generate my own lesson business thru sales as opposed to waiting for walk-up business.

My pay rate is no secret. In the scenario you describe the lesson costs the customer $70.00 per hour which is about what folks in Boulder pay a trainer at a gym. I make $29.50 with the commission. If I work hard and schedule well I can have a gross, without tips, of $180.00 per day
There's the whole problem right there. Why would you start a business if the gross were only $70 an hour, and the total number of days in a year were 120 (or 25 in the East)? What could you gross? $20,000 a year per instructor? You would still need to pay expenses, including a payment to the ski area. If you didn't have the consent of the ski area, how could you promote and grow the business?

ESA, NASTC and all the other independent ski schools are tiny compared to the entire ski school business, but they probably saturate the high level lesson market. An instructor (or group of instructors) who has not already become well known doesn't have a chance in that market.

The real truth is that the largest part of ski school business is children, and the next largest part is the all-in beginner package. An independent has a real disadvantage in those markets. The high end business has developed a few small independent schools, but vey few instructors have the skills or committment to compete with them effectively.

John
post #85 of 98
Thread Starter 
Thanks all of you, I have gained some valuable insight into this arena. My intent was never to insight a riot just to get people views, which I certainly have.

I would never try to take away business or lessons from a ski school or instructor, this would be unethical. I thought I made that point clear. Some have taken my vision and twisted it to suit their soapbox rants.

I appreciate the liability concerns however we all must manage risks as our tolerances and good judgments dictate. One could go broke purchasing insurance for every possible calamity.

What I was eluding to was providing a very niche service to my clientele that come into my shop. I still see no competition with any ski schools over this and will continue to do this. Where I am doing this service in a one on one environment, organizations like PMTS, and NASTC are marketing it to masses.

I sincerely do not see a problem with what I propose, but understand others opinions may differ. I do not think any name calling was appropriate or called for in this thread and find it a bit tasteless coming from someone I have respect for on this forum.

It sounds like Rusty Guy has developed a great program for himself through his ski school. Good for him! Pardon me if I do not follow your lead. I have an ultimate dream of which "Ssh" has offered to help with and I thank him for seeing the potential in my goal.
post #86 of 98
Thanks for the thread Bud! It certainly gives everyone something to consider. In the world of business, if you're standing still... you're going backward.

The relationship between instructors (PSIA or other) and the ski areas does not have to be antagonistic. In fact working in cooperation will strengthen the industry for everyone. The instructor community as a whole needs to decide if they want the autonomy and responsibility for growing the ski industry, or if they are content to be employees and wait for the business to come to them.

Negotiating from a position of strength and control, professional ski organizations (whether they be a band of merry renegades or the PSIA as a whole) could cut the marketing expense for all ski areas and in return they could ask for a bigger piece of the pie. Limiting efforts to provide a better product on either side is surely detrimental to both.
post #87 of 98
Sorry for not having the quote of whoever mentioned it first, but I find the correlation to renting skis off-site very interesting. Should ski areas allow people to bring in rental skis from outside ski shops? Is there a difference?

Along the same lines, but more directly, I have known some people at work who will hire a golf instructor (not a golf course pro) who goes to a driving range (located at a golf course) and teaches them. They may also play a round of golf with them and provide instruction. Is this unethical? Remember that golf course are 10 to a town, and the business could be taken elsewhere.

I do find this similar to ESA and other Camps. As long as the instructor is finding the business outside the ski area, I don't see that they are taking the lesson away from the employed instructors of the ski area. In most cases, the students would probably not be taking a lesson at all, but the freelance instructor sold them on it.

Here's a sticky situation.... I know of a ski instructor who does a lot of personal selling for return lessons (walk-in lessons). Therefore, this person gets lots of request privates (so far so good). But then this instructor convinces those same students to pay them directly and takes them to another ski area to teach them (maybe offers them a discount? I don't know). Because both ski areas are owned by the same people, the instructor's pass is good at both, so lift priveleges are free to the instructor. I find this to be where the line got crossed. The ski area brought in the business, but the instructor "stole" the business from the ski area. If ther person had gone out and made the initial lesson sale at a bar in the city, that would be one thing, but they didn't. In this case, I feel they are taking lessons away from the ski area.

Thanks for the thread!
post #88 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
Here's a sticky situation.... I know of a ski instructor who does a lot of personal selling for return lessons (walk-in lessons). Therefore, this person gets lots of request privates (so far so good). But then this instructor convinces those same students to pay them directly and takes them to another ski area to teach them (maybe offers them a discount? I don't know). Because both ski areas are owned by the same people, the instructor's pass is good at both, so lift priveleges are free to the instructor. I find this to be where the line got crossed. The ski area brought in the business, but the instructor "stole" the business from the ski area. If ther person had gone out and made the initial lesson sale at a bar in the city, that would be one thing, but they didn't. In this case, I feel they are taking lessons away from the ski area.
That whole situation sucks. But I'm surprised it doesn't happen even more than it does as 2 of the 3 parties involved win out. Obviously the resort gets hosed.
post #89 of 98
Thread Starter 
How does the resort get hosed if it sells two lift tickets it would not have sold otherwise. How does it get hosed if those two skiers had no intention of purchasing a ski school ticket? Who gets hosed? It seems like a win/win to me?
post #90 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman
How does the resort get hosed if it sells two lift tickets it would not have sold otherwise. How does it get hosed if those two skiers had no intention of purchasing a ski school ticket? Who gets hosed? It seems like a win/win to me?
Bud

How could you feel that the home resort doesn't get hosed in JohnH's example?

In his example, the instructor convinces the returning student to pay him directly, instead of the ski school,and then takes them to another area to teach them. The home resort loses both the returning lesson and the lift fees in this example.

If the instructor had met this guy off the mountain and convinced him to take a lesson, I can see how the instructor at least brought a lift fee to the mountain. That wasn't the case here.
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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › what are your thoughts on private coaching outside a ski school?