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Please, help me stop tipping! - Page 4

post #91 of 114
AM,
Diskki might hate your idea but a lot of us look for ways to get our students to relax and carry less tension. The worst phrase I have ever heard is "RELAX" because it never works. In fact, it is usually counter productive. So finding some indirect way to encourage relaxation is a very common objective.
Disski, if I can ask what works for you?
post #92 of 114
Instructors tell me what they need.... we have found humming (even in my head) or breathing control work well.....

Alternatively we just go work on something else - or "go ski" for a run.... Mostly that works these days....

"Playing games" usually makes me get stressed out more.... I know they are playing & do not know if I am "playing" right... (no defined objective?)

As my motor control is so poor I get stressed about the deal much more than you would believe possible
post #93 of 114
JASP - I may not have made that obvious - but trying to distract me with a game does not work BECAUSE I know that is what they are trying to do,.... giving me another task works better - it distracts me....

The task can be simple - "keep on my tails".... this works VERY WELL.... I am so busy trying to stay there I do nothing but keep up... (you need to set speed well though - too fast & I will give up - too slow is no challenge)
post #94 of 114
My favorite is to ask an open ended question about anything but ski technique. Usually something that requires a little thinking but not so deep that the answer will take an hour for them to explain. As I patiently listen we both have a chance to relax and share a moment without the pressure to perform.
I think Mike is on to something though. Humor is an effective teaching tool and getting someone to laugh is usually a good thing.
post #95 of 114
Yeah - I know - it just does not work on me...I don't find physically stupid stuff "funny".....

I find mental "laughing" funnier than being asked to perform circus tricks...
If you wnat me to laugh you gotta get cerebral - not have me playing kiddy games.....

The guys I like to ski with the most ALL play this way.... half the challenge really - getting me to respect where the instructor is coming from.... Those that can get my respect mentally are waaaaay ahead...

See - I'm not kidding I really AM a thinker/feeler... no watcher/doer here...
post #96 of 114
So back to the original question about tipping. I was playing with a drill the other day that was the total opposite but does help you explore progressive edging through body shaping, and inclinating , and moving into an angulated (leveling shoulders) finish. Sound too good to be true?

Well it goes something like this.
Step1. Arc a "J" turn. Finishing it when you are completely across the hill.
Step2. As you release the skis simultaneously, pivot both skis directly into the fall line but continue to "slip" sideways. Yes across the hill towards the trees.
Step3. Set the edges and do another "J" turn without allowing the skis to skid.
As you get more comfortable doing this go for more speed and more inclination during the sideways slipping phase. The goal being to go across the hill (not downhill) during the slipping phase.
When you return to "normal" carved turns you will be less likely to overdo the initiation because of the patience you learned doing the sideways pivot slips.
I know this will ruffle a few feathers but go do it before telling me how totally wrong and totally inappropriate it is.
post #97 of 114
I remember playing at doing something my then in structor called "slippy turns" ...... we would simply disengage edges & extend a tad & just wait for skis to come around.... then engage edges..... strangely enough NOT engaging edges is what taught me to do a parallel short turn....

His other trick was to make me ski beside him - I was terified of hitting him - so I would turn when he did
post #98 of 114
ooops finished too soon - sorry...

Yeah - so my conclusion is that I'll back your turn although I am unsure if I could do it without a LOT of work..... but I might try it....

I am going skiing in Argentiere with a friend at christmas & she is only an intermediate - so I can play with this sort of stuff while we ski around
post #99 of 114
The difference between the skidded turn and this drill is that there is no skid during the turning phase and absolutely no edging and very little pressure during the slipping phase. At least in the beginning. Extreme opposites and very dynamic when done right.
Here's why it would be appropriate for this tipping thread. Basically it deprograms our rush to an edge because we are doing 30mph sideways. Which is not something we normally do on skis, especially across the hill. Of course it is scary and a little dangerous for anyone lacking the skills to get onto an edge that late and still finish the turn carving. So I guess I should add a disclaimer that is a very advanced drill and you need to have more than basic skills to perform this safely. Most racers will recognize this as a recovery move except it does not happen to include a downhill sideslip.
It reminds me of a four wheel power slide in a car. Huge energy expenditure because of the all or nothing objectives. Then when everything hooks up you are faced with the rebound that has now been released directly down the hill. Climbing aboard and staying up with the rapidly accelerating skis while maintaining the clean arc is not easy. So be careful.
post #100 of 114
Ok - now you described the feet(skis) - tell me what my upper parts do while I do this exercise
post #101 of 114
Telling you the intended outcome sort of messes up the drill because it is an active experimentation and guided discovery drill. That being said I realize you have a limited amount of kiesthetic awareness, so sending you more information is not something I would refuse to do. Still it would be nice if you could cross the boundary into some right brained activities someday.
post #102 of 114
Again, you have to judge the audience when trying any approach. Sometimes it's something silly, sometimes it's something serious. With most people, after a day of serious drills it's a good thing to let it all hang out and just ski. Some groups that are especially social just love being goofy.

The problem I have with focusing on skidded initiations is that they allow the skier to get used to weighting late in the turn. I usually flip the drill you describe and have them do a carved initiation and a drifted exit. It doesn't always provide the angulated position you describe, but having them commit early to the turn is more valuable. Once they have that feeling in mind, we move on to a more angulated position to further develop edge angles and maintain the clean arc. Nothing is set in stone, though. Again, you have to judge the audience.
post #103 of 114
Mike, There is no first half of the turn and no skidded initiation as we know it. Just a sideways pivot slip (no downhill drifting allowed) and a J turn. Most people who add a staccato edge engagement do so at the two thirds point not at the fall line. Then they get stuck on that edge and do a rotary push off move to release the skis. Not at all what you need to do to accomplish this maneuver.
Addition in editing: The people targeted by this drill already know how to carve an initiation, in fact they usually use way too much early edge and that bias limits what they can do during the rest of the turn(s).
BTW I like your approach of adding some levity to a ski lesson. Being able to laugh at yourself and do stupid human tricks might intimidate some but most see it as an attempt to loosen up the group and improve group dynamics through playfulness.
post #104 of 114
Good drill JASP!

I've always been a fan of extreme differentiation drills that aggressively bust students out of their narrow and ridged technical molds, thus allowing them to immediately experience a distinctly new balance/edge sensation and movement pattern. I find that introducing students to technical modifications and expansions are best accomplished by going to gross extremes first, then working backwards toward more acute refinements.

One thing to add about your drill. The longer you ride the slide, the smoother the edge engagement into the new carve will be because as time goes on momentum will dissipate, and gravity will start to arch your travel path into the falline, making the engagement result in a less abrupt change of direction. Agree?
post #105 of 114
Ahhh. In that context I can completely see where you're going with it. I like it.
post #106 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Good drill JASP!

I've always been a fan of extreme differentiation drills that aggressively bust students out of their narrow and ridged technical molds, thus allowing them to immediately experience a distinctly new balance/edge sensation and movement pattern. I find that introducing students to technical modifications and expansions are best accomplished by going to gross extremes first, then working backwards toward more acute refinements.
yes - that works well for me - but it is sometimes hard to get me to the extreme.... but getting me as far as possible lets me feel the movement feedback better & then refine it
post #107 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Good drill JASP!

I've always been a fan of extreme differentiation drills that aggressively bust students out of their narrow and ridged technical molds, thus allowing them to immediately experience a distinctly new balance/edge sensation and movement pattern. I find that introducing students to technical modifications and expansions are best accomplished by going to gross extremes first, then working backwards toward more acute refinements.

One thing to add about your drill. The longer you ride the slide, the smoother the edge engagement into the new carve will be because as time goes on momentum will dissipate, and gravity will start to arch your travel path into the falline, making the engagement result in a less abrupt change of direction. Agree?
I had thought that I was going to find a REALLY WIDE place & slide sideways as long as I could - because that was how it felt to me too!

Sorry JASP - I am a terror for trying to find ways to "cheat" on exercises that seem liek they may be tricky!
post #108 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
yes - that works well for me - but it is sometimes hard to get me to the extreme....
Right, Disski. The instructor must introduce new territory exercises in accordance with the current level, or particular needs, of the individual student. They should provide new challenges and feelings without overwhelming skill thresholds.
post #109 of 114
Exactly ..... it needs to be the extreme version of what I can be expected to achieve NOW.... with my current skill set


I can learn the next version LATER.....

This was my beef about HH and the "You must stand on 1 leg" broken record.... The inability to work with what I CAN do now.... We can aim for better 1 leg balance.... most of my instructors think I WILL one-ski ski eventually.... but why stop learning UNTIL i can do the progression in the HH prescribed fashion when I can work from WHERE I AM NOW... if only the instructor will do so

This is what the successful surf instructors do as well - they let me plod along working at my level... they present me with the challenges - btu always just outside my current skill - so i can achieve some degree of success with a little practice & work...
post #110 of 114

One more perspective

I'm new to this site, so thanks to all the insightful, passionate participants. I'm learning alot reading all of your comments. I have less expertise, but I am practical. My background is multi-sports, now coaching Junior Club level racers. At my club, we've stopped "teaching" shoulder angle, prefering to work on dynamic balance and powerful movements (not in words, in actions) on varying terrain, and let the shoulders tip how they will, ie, more in favorable conditions, and level-ish in sketchy conditions.
For D(C), who started all this, here's what I'd say if he was in my program: first, let's check the equipment. Fess up--are you in macho stiff boots and skis that the big boys use but you can't really flex? If so, then stiff back-seat steering is your fate. Maybe the straight arm problem is trying to push forward against stiff boots? Second, in the pics and your comments, you seem too analytic and tight, typical of adult learners, but seen in kids too. Not only does your equipment need to flex more, YOU need to flex more in body and mind. Quit trying to find "positions" and the "right way" and strive for balance, flow, feel, athletic movement. Loosen up and take risks, do the drills that are suggested here and by your coach to their EXTREMES and have fun! For what it's worth, here's my favorite drill progression for your issues: without poles, on a nice groomer, ski down with your hands on your knees pushing them symetrically from side to side to create your arcs. When you are good at that, put your hands out comfortably to the sides and keep the knees going as if your hands were pushing them. DONT TRY to level or tip your shoulders, just let the terrain determine the tilt. Use your hands for balance, DONT force them into a position. When you're good at that, then EXPERIMENT with more shoulder inclination or level shoulders so you learn how it feels and works. Sometimes you'll look "old school" and sometimes you'll look like a snowboarder--all good!!! This is big fun and helpful too.
Thanks again for the great discussions everyone.
post #111 of 114
Welcome to the forum, skizz! You understate yourself,,,, nice post.
post #112 of 114
Sorry it took me so long to respond Rick but I was really busy today. Yes the longer you slip the more downhill gravity will pull you. To compensate we just need to go faster. 30 mph usually works because a second of sideslipping is usually enough to get the point across. I have done this for about four seconds without starting to drift downhill but that requires a lot more speed. Obviously, we need a wide slope to do this at that speed. It is a kick to send a huge plume up at the edge set.
The ragged and staccatto movements force a lot of balancing movements to happen in an anticipated way. It also includes a lot of off balance phases which forces you to do a lot of corrective maneuvers on the fly. So IMO it teaches recentering, and how much time there actually is in a turn. After that it forces the student/racer to rethink the overedged initiation. Early edge does not mean high edge angle, it means progressive edge angle. Even if it is not pressured.
Also the transition to the slipping means getting the skis flat at the end of the turn. Without that it is very difficult to do the transition to a slipping stance. A lot of setting up activities.
post #113 of 114
do the drill where you tap your ski boot on the outside of the turn or the drill where you hold you poles out in front keeping them parallel with the hill
post #114 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro
So back to the original question about tipping. I was playing with a drill the other day that was the total opposite but does help you explore progressive edging through body shaping, and inclinating , and moving into an angulated (leveling shoulders) finish. Sound too good to be true?

Well it goes something like this.
Step1. Arc a "J" turn. Finishing it when you are completely across the hill.
Step2. As you release the skis simultaneously, pivot both skis directly into the fall line but continue to "slip" sideways. Yes across the hill towards the trees.
Step3. Set the edges and do another "J" turn without allowing the skis to skid.
As you get more comfortable doing this go for more speed and more inclination during the sideways slipping phase. The goal being to go across the hill (not downhill) during the slipping phase.
When you return to "normal" carved turns you will be less likely to overdo the initiation because of the patience you learned doing the sideways pivot slips.
I know this will ruffle a few feathers but go do it before telling me how totally wrong and totally inappropriate it is.
Ummmm...I'm a seer/doer. Anyone got any visuals on this so I can try it without killing myself??
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