Please, help me stop tipping! - Page 2

DC

You have started a good discussion.

First picture indicates serious problems with the lower body. Your right leg - start at the boot - seems clueless. It's only one frame, but that right leg tells a lot.

The second frame - back seat - is a prodct of the first frame. You seem to be late on the left ski - as it takes hold it leaves you behind. You need to get forward, but how do you do that? It's in frame one.

3rd frame - nice recovery. To get more from the carve - left arm should push ahead in the direction you want to go. You look like you are about to give up on the turn.

It would be nice to see the video. A little coaching would go a long way for you. Coaching could be your breakthrough - you are closer than you think.

A strong inside half is shown by the complimentary angles of the feet, knees, hips, and shoulders matching as close as possible. You'll feel it when it happens.

Pay attention to the inside hip. Try to develope a feel for how it is moving, then play with altering the movements of the inside hip up and allowing it to move forward as the turn progresses. The arm shoulder and upper body should be strong through a turn as an outcome of the legs and hips controling these movements.

The movements can very subtle, but can have big results. A little goes a long way. Dropping the tail bone by pulling the belly button towards the spine can also have a positive impact on the core and the pelvis and keep everything working in harmony. Lengthening the spine by strightening the kneck can also help everthing stack up. Play with these areas of the body and the sensations of the ski snow interaction that result. Later, RicB.

Right you are, you specifically said bring the inside hip forward. My confusion was I don't understand "not counter rotating around the outside leg". How does the hip come forward without counter? We no longer use counter for turn initiation, and angulation looks different due to stance, but seems important to counteract centrifugal forces. I would like to better understand what counter rotation around the outside leg meant, or perhaps clarify where the axis of counter occurs.

This is just utter nonsense. How you can put power to the skis by misaligning the body and "pinching" ribcage in an "unnatural" way?? This extreme angulation technique was used 20 years ago, it has nothing to do with modern GS turn of the last ten years.

How his feet could be fine if he says that he is falling on the inside ski?!?!?! I don't care what happens with shoulders until the feet are fixed. Heluvaskier, people balance on their feet, not with their shoulders. And you should learn the difference between leaning and inclination and leave angulation in the past, where it belongs, before giving people wrong advice.

Pinching the ribcage laterally as Heluvaskier suggests is still very much part of race training. I've heard it used by both top American and Canadian coaches over the last couple years as a focal point to help level the shoulders.

Falling on his inside ski is very much a product of where his mass is in relation to his skis and how much force is pulling him towards the outside of the turn. The current USSA philosophy stesses body position in the very first exercises that they present, and it is reinforced in every drill.

As I understand it, the difference is in where the emphasis is placed. Moving the inside hip forward is very different from the old drop the hip into the turn and face the outside of the turn, standing on the outside leg. By bringing the inside hip forward (and inside ski back), you are more naturally aligned to carve the inside ski and it's easier to transition into the next turn without excessive up and down movement.

Rush614, you have it wrong greg has it right on!

The difference is really that inclination (banking) is intended to move the CoM to an appropriate position to balance. Angulation is used to maintain CoM location while changing the edge angle of the ski.

To test this, try AM's drill: stand in front of a mirror and tip your boots. You can tip them very, very far using just angulation and no inclination (banking). If you incline at all, you'll fall, because you're moved your CoM and there are no lateral forces to counteract that movement. Speed against the snow generates the necessarily lateral force (centrifugal) that you need to balance against. You use inclination to move the CoM far enough into the turn for balance, then adjust edge angle (for turn radius) by angulating. If you use inclination to adjust the edge angle, you'll fall inside. Note, too, that angulation is easier to articulate in minute amounts than is inclination.

The focus on leveling the shoulders encourages angulation. While this is appropriate on the terrain that we're talking about, it is an effect of a proper blend of angulation and inclination, not a specific cause. It just so happens that, at speed, our natural inclination is to bank (pun intended). So, if we go for the "pinch", we'll angulate more.

BTW, focus on the feet may be more difficult, given that it's not easy for many of us to feel when our weight is distributed appropriately. From my perspective, D(C)'s feet look ok in those photos, but I suspect that he's got more weight on the inside foot than he should due to the lack of angulation.

That means that you do not have enough pressure on the front portion of the outside ski. Instead of actively extending outside leg at the beginning of the turn and actively retracting inside leg in the middle portion, you just fall on the inside ski, and, when it makes contact with the snow (most likely with a significant lead over the outside one), it removes any pressure built up on the outside ski. As a result, outside ski rails, you end up on inside ski in a backseat and the rest is history.

Do yourself a favor, do not listen to so-called "experts" here. Most of them have no idea what they are talking about. Instead, do the following drill:

1. Start going straight at ~ 30 deg to the fall-line until you pick up good amount of speed.
2. Pick up inside ski and initiate the turn my inclining, just as you're doing in photographs. Make sure that you maintain pressure on the ball of the foot.
3. Concentrate on GENTLY coming into contact with the snow with the inside ski AFTER you cross the fall-line, do not just fall on it. Make sure your placing inside ski side-by-side to the outside ski, not in front of it (i.e. keep ski tips wide, but level). Maintain ~60-40 distribution. Make sure that your feet, knees, pelvis, shoulders and arms are completely lined up, no angulation or counter whatsoever. Repeat to the other side.

P.S. Note that I've never mentioned shoulders...

Rush614, i dont know how much experience you have racing but please stop offering advice. Its counter productive. The only time that you can allow your shoulders to drop inside the turn is when you are going very very fast (50ish) on very very steep terrain, where you can use a technique i think called stacking... someone clarify? ...which is essentially where your outside shoulder, leg and ski are all lined up in more of a high angulated banked position... The only thing that holds you on the snow at this point is centrifugal force and 100% weight on your downhill ski.

Screw 60-40 distribution. It doesnt work until you have your upper body in check. It doesnt even work at all in a course. Those who think it does are terribly mistaken and i wonder how good at physics they are and how many courses they have skied. Your shoulders do not have to be perfectly level to the ground at all times, but it is a good thing to try to do, because you will end up being in the position that you need to be in by exaggerating the movement.

There is nothing wrong with his feet in either of those photographs. They seem to be at a natural width apart, and are equally angulated. You get onto your inside ski by moving too much of you CM over the inside ski (tipping your hand and shoulders inside and behind you).

Technically we could beat this topic all day and come out with the same result... square up the shoulders. Judging from the turns youre making this should be an easy task - a couple of drills can fix it quickly, (one is try reaching down and touching the boot of your outside ski with a perfectly out stretched arm in your turns, another is try resting your poles on your hands (do not grip them) and ski down a moderate pitch, while concentrating on keeping the poles level to the ground and not moving your hands... if you arent level they slide off... and if youre upper body isnt quiet they bounce off).

Later

GREG

What do you expect him to discover as a result of this exercise? BTW, you did mention shoulders.

If he doesn't have enough pressure on his outside ski, it's because he's not angulating! If you're only banking, you're not going to be able to get to 60/40, because your uphill/inside leg won't be able to get out of the way.

Your profile says that you're a ski instructor and your favorite terrain is the race course, and yet you are in significant disagreement with long-time contributors here who are effective racers. Why is that? I'd like to think that there are communication issues here, not fundamental disagreement.

Do you disagree with my statements about the purposes of inclination (banking) and angulation? If so, what about them is incorrect? I'm happy to learn if I'm wrong. And, FWIW, I didn't see anyone here call themselves an "expert", so I don't know who the "so-called experts" are... :

Dear HeluvaSkier, ssh, Atomicman

Skiing is highly individual, constantly evolving, very technical sport and there are many technical approaches, some more effective, some less so, some counter-productive, some are just plain wrong.

I am simply offering my opinion and my advice to D(C). I am not going to waste time arguing with guys like you that I am right, I have neither time, nor desire. I don't care how successful you are in the racecourse, what your favorite slopes are or what things you've heard from various coaches. You seem to follow outdated technical dogmas without real understanding of issues involved. Your views are quite common and I am tired of arguing same points over and over again.

Let D(C) figure out on his own what works for him, what does not.

One word of advice to D(C) though: when you hear somebody make a technical statement like "keep the shoulders level" ask them: "why?" Keep asking "why?" to any subsequent explanations. I bet at some point you'll hear something like "I've heard it from somebody who heard it from a coach etc.." Run away if you hear those words. Listen only to those whose replies make sense to you from a basic biophysical standpoint.

Over and out.

Funny, that, rush614. I thought that's basically what I was asking you. Your answer is That's your prerogative, of course, but it doesn't exactly lend credence to your position.

Dear rush614:

I am sorry to burst your bubble their chief, but I am not providing 3rd hand he said she said crap here at all, but actual information I personally have seen and observed from one of the most professional, experienced and successful ski coaches in the business. He has produced from his program the following US Ski team members, and WC level skiers:
Scoot McCartney, Libby Ludlow, Tatum Skoglund, and most recently, Paul McDonald (Aloos last years NCAA slalom champion)Not bad for a program up in little Crystal Mt. Washington!

He also has produced Jill Mcdonald (UVM Varsity as a Freshman) and Courtney Hammond (Now at Rowmark) Both ranked in the top 50 Juniors in the country and Courtney is a High School senior.

He constantly works with our racers on keeping their shoulders level!!!!!

It is a known fact this creates balanced controllable pop from your skis and prevents you from putting too much weight on your inside ski just after the transition and leaning in(read tipping in, falling to the inside). Level shoulders happens to be the way I naturally ski. Lucky I guess(This coach observed me when I didn't know he was watching and made this comment to me).

Unfortunately for you, I must put my confidence in someone who has a proven track record in producing top notch racers and skiers.

I don't believe your comments hold water both from my own experience on skis and from the successful professionals I have firsthand access to on a regular basis who do not agree with your thoughts on this subject!

We're going to argue about the technique exhibited in these montages, but I thought I'd throw them in the ring.

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/la...004-gs-2A.html

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/la...2004-sl-2.html

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/la...c-2004-gs.html

D(C),

Any chance you can get pics of your transition? Hard to see, but it looks like your outside shoulder and hips are "closed". Can impact your ability to use a strong inside half as suggested. Pics of your transition might help.

PS. I had a similar problem because I forced a very aggressive move into the next turn... only problem was that it was coming as a diving move originating from my head and shoulders and not where it should have come from. Suggestions given to me- relax the upper body, be patient, open (counter) slightly, and lead with the inside half.

Hope you get rid of your demon!!

Nice shots AM, looks like level shoulders and rib crunching to me!

I rest my case...

You never had a case

palander images 8 and 9 don't look like level shoulders to me. All of Raich's do, while images 1 and 2 of Bode don't. However, as you know, I generally agree that angulation is an important element of a solid carved turn, and is definitely required for racing. I see too little of it in D(C)'s skiing for effective turns, and agree that this is the primary reason he's struggling with his balance.

I ignored Bode, because albeit he is fast, I don't think others should attempt to ski like him. By the way he doesn't finish as often as many others.

The last frame he has completly leveled I will give you those 2 frames but still predominately level shoulders

DC, you cued in on the right advice here, your info filter is working fine.

Guys, I think rush is pulling your chain. At least I hope so. Hey rush, in that pressure transfer drill you described, what are you doing to facilitate that juggling of pressure from one foot to the other? Are you doing it by moving your Center of Mass laterally? If yes, then how?

Steve, look beyond true levelness in the shoulders in these WC shots and look for differences in the edge angle relative to the snow, and the angle of the shoulders relative to the snow. This is were angulation becomes evident. The forces generated by these guys don't always require the shoulders to be snow level to achieve balance, but they still usually demands a degree of angulation.

And as to the inclinated positions displayed at the top of turns in WC shots, it's quite common. A couple reasons for it;

1) an attempt to move the CM quickly across the skis during the transition and get the new turn underway.

2) The edge angle is still low at the top of the turn. At low edge angles inclination results in little CM movement and allows, sometimes requires, it's presense. As edge angles increase so does the need for angulation.

Think of it this way; at a 5 degree edge angle on a flat slope can you use total body inclination and maintain some manner of balance? Could you use the same total body inclination while riding a 70 degree edge angle on a flat slope and not fall on your side?

3) It's often a game of catch up (balancing in the future) that's combined with a pivot. The skis are pivoted during the transition to provide a rapid direction change. During the pivot the skis are light. When pressure is reestablished there will be a moment of high G's because of the big difference in the direction of momentum and the direction the skis are pointing. The big G moment requires a body position with the CM well inside to counteract it. Total body inclination provides that. As the racer then feathers into a carve (which brings momentum and ski direction back into closer alignment), and adds edge angle, he'll then fold into an angulated position.

By the way, I believe Raich has finished evry race he has been in this season. Maybe that leveling (not always completely level as Rick has pointed out) has some effect on consistency?

Good points by all. Level shoulders are a focal point, but not the end-all-be-all of skiing. However, by striving for level shoulders you work towards angulation that is present in all of those pictures (even Bode's). Trying to level the shoulders usually keeps people from twisting their bodies to achieve the same effect- weight over the edges at the outside of the turn.

In all of those pictures, where are the shoulders most level? As I see it, it's when the skis are in the fall line and at their most pressured. At that point, if they were banked they would be kissing the nets.

I was leaning J toward the observations expressed by PaulJones and jdowling above but didn’t want to assert any balance ideas without further info from D(C). Guess I'm late getting back to the party.

My take on D(C)'s expanded explanation was fore/aft issues combined with inclination issues. Image #2 compares nicely with the image in post #21 to see differences of interest.

The Strong Inside Half discussed above seems relevant to fore/aft balance also if we disregard the lateral components of alignment, counter and tipping for a moment.

A wider stance (laterally) increases the width of our Base of Support. Likewise, a wider stance with one foot forward and the other back will widen the BoS in the fore/aft perspective. Ski boots restrict the distance this can be done sensibly. Tip lead may be frowned upon these days but I still see it everywhere and suspect a bit of unrealized dependency on it for added fore/aft balance. Not sure.

A more refined exploration of Strong Inside Half as it relates to fore/aft balance is looking at how bringing the Old Outside ski/hip/side forward moves our CM forward in relation to the Old Inside foot. By also transferring weight/pressure to the Old Inside foot (which is now effectively behind us) we have created a brace to support our CM from behind. It’s in just the right place to help us stand against the acceleration we’re about to experience.

May be a bit out of the box, but it helps me.

.ma

Not bad MichaelA.

The fore/aft component of the the inside hip drive is spot on.

The fore/aft balance component of tip lead is,,,, well,,,,,, another matter. Telemark, yes. Alpine, not really. In alpine, with stiff boots, it's less a goal and more just a byproduct of functional counter and rotational alignment. In the fore/aft plane the leveraging against the boot cuff and length of the ski provides the needed base of support expansion.

Are my comments really so obtuse? Does the fact that I sometimes frame my insights as questions diminish their value? This is basically what I was saying: the sensation of leveling shoulders and pinching at the waist are mental keys to trigger angulation. Angulation allows us to adjust edge angles for appropriate turn radius (and also gives us access to a wider range of adjustability of edge angles) far beyond what inclination alone does. It also allows us to balance more solidly on the ski edge, which lets us dynamically adjust to changing snow and terrain conditions.

Inclination does none of these things. Incliniation is a bit like rotation in that respect: big movements, slow in developing.

Now, do I have anything wrong? Do you disagree with these assessments?

That is a good clarification of what I said.