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3 degree bevel angle - Page 2

post #31 of 53
Almost all Atomics are like that and your C9 is wide in the tip & tail! Except their speedskis. (DH, SG)

There is nothing inherently wrong with stonegrinding your skis, in fact it is a necessity when reseeting base bevels and with many p-tex repairs. It is the amount they grind off that is at issue!. For a simple p-tex repair, they should not have had to grind the concavity out of your skis. Alos, this is probably not the case and woudl have nothing to do with edge hold as mentioned above.

Great Edgehold is completely a product of base and even more so side edge bevel. All Atomic skis are factory spec, 1 degree base bevel and 3 degree side edge, period!

Either you have too much base bevel. (tyhis would make it difficult to get a good edge unless you use very high edge angle and have your skis very far out from under you, or not enough side edge bevel, which would reduce your edge hold greatly. Also, they just may not of gotten your skis very sharp.

Because of the very issues you are experiencing, I have learned to tune my own skis. I will only let a very reputable shop stone grind them, and then I do all the rest of the work. I have had many ski days ruined in the past by porr tunes. I suggest you look at

www.tognar.com, and search the threads here. also www.ski-racing.com (Race Place) to learn about tuning yourself!

It will be well worth your time!

Good Luck

A-man.
post #32 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
You have got be joking, right?
Or what are you smoking??????? Have you lost your mind? What the hell??? Talk about bizarro, When you look it up in the dictionary it is defined as : jstraw!
He was being funny.

I knew he was joking after reading it twice.
post #33 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scalce
He was being funny.

I knew he was joking after reading it twice.
I thought so after reading it about 10 times, I am a little slow at times), but then again there are some pretty interesting posts on here from time to time!

Nice pic JS, pretty handsome for an italian!
post #34 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
You have got be joking, right?
Or what are you smoking??????? Have you lost your mind? What the hell??? Talk about bizarro, When you look it up in the dictionary it is defined as : jstraw!
<pat on the head> there, there buddy, it seems there's a LOT of irony-impairment going around.
post #35 of 53
I think that a 1/3 angle is overkill for most Western skiers. In the East it makes more sense, but I don't think it is as necessary as Atomic would like everyone to think. I always ask for a 1/2 angle and I ski in the East, often on hard conditions.

Recently I had a strange tune on my Elan HCX which made them feel like I am on rails. That is OK when carving, but when I wanted to skid on very hard snow it was next to impossible. Bumps were downright dangerous as the skis were beyond grabby. After looking at the bases with a straight bar I noticed that the base was a little concave and the base bevel seemed to be visibly more aggressive than 1 degree (I suspect it was 1/2 degree). While none of this was an issue in soft snow, on hard surfaces I felt literally helpless. I wish I had the tools and experience to tune my own skis, because 20-30% of the time, the shop really screws things up.
post #36 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
You have got be joking, right?
Or what are you smoking??????? Have you lost your mind? What the hell??? Talk about bizarro, When you look it up in the dictionary it is defined as : jstraw!
*shakes head in disbelief*
post #37 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB
I think that a 1/3 angle is overkill for most Western skiers. In the East it makes more sense, but I don't think it is as necessary as Atomic would like everyone to think. I always ask for a 1/2 angle and I ski in the East, often on hard conditions.

Recently I had a strange tune on my Elan HCX which made them feel like I am on rails. That is OK when carving, but when I wanted to skid on very hard snow it was next to impossible. Bumps were downright dangerous as the skis were beyond grabby. After looking at the bases with a straight bar I noticed that the base was a little concave and the base bevel seemed to be visibly more aggressive than 1 degree (I suspect it was 1/2 degree). While none of this was an issue in soft snow, on hard surfaces I felt literally helpless. I wish I had the tools and experience to tune my own skis, because 20-30% of the time, the shop really screws things up.
I live and ski out "Out West" and trust me when I say a 1/3 is not overkill!

We don't always have soft snow and even when we do, there is no downside to a 3 degree side edge! 3 degree works great!
post #38 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstraw
<pat on the head> there, there buddy, it seems there's a LOT of irony-impairment going around.
Ok!
post #39 of 53
In my experience, 3 degrees don´t make any overkill (cf. my experiments with bevels in recreational skis, posted here earlier) but less than .5 base bevel can and for less proficient skiers will.
post #40 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkracer
In my experience, 3 degrees don´t make any overkill (cf. my experiments with bevels in recreational skis, posted here earlier) but less than .5 base bevel can and for less proficient skiers will.
Since we are talking about proficient skiers, I agree that 1/3 degrees is OK. Unfortunately 97% of skiers (Atomic or anything else) use that very sharp edge to skid their way around. Overkill if you ask me. Clearly someone like Atomicman knows how to use that edge.

Also, I cannot imagine any recreational skier asking for less than 0.5 degrees, even if they are experts.
post #41 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomB
I noticed that the base was a little concave and the base bevel seemed to be visibly more aggressive than 1 degree (I suspect it was 1/2 degree). While none of this was an issue in soft snow, on hard surfaces I felt literally helpless. I wish I had the tools and experience to tune my own skis, because 20-30% of the time, the shop really screws things up.
Depending on the file guide used for the base edge, if the bases themselves are concave the file guide will not produce a true 1 degree base angle because the end of the guide not in contact with the steel edge is resting "below grade" so to speak thereby affecting the angle.

Other than Toko, I'm not sure who makes a file guide that extends edge to edge to eliminate any concavity from affecting the base bevel. Depending on the extent that the base is concave, you can still wind up with the "railed" edge effect.
post #42 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiDeC58
There has been much discussion about the 3 degree bevel angle of Atomic skis. Atomic also has an almost mystical reputation for edge hold. I'm wondering if there is something specific in the design of Atomic skis that makes this 3 degree angle appropriate to them alone or would other skis also benefit from the 1/3 base/bevel geometry. I'm thinking specifically about retuning my Elan S12 Fusions to this geometry and I'm wondering if there are good reasons I should not. Have any Bears used the 1/3 on non-Atomic skis? What do you think?
Hi,
There is no good reason not to. I've prepared all of the magazine test skis for Elan for the past two years at 1 base 3 side.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, proper edge angle set up is all about mechanical advantage, and not as subjective as one might think. The positive difference in performance, as well as what it will do for your overall skiing experience should not make this a tough decision. Don't deny yourself entry to the next level of performance from your skis.

BTW, your S12's came from the factory with well in excess of 3 degree of base bevel, and that's a fact. Grinding with Fusion can be a challenge, so make sure you have confidence in whoever you decide to refinsh your base and base edge.

Skidoc
post #43 of 53
OMG

Mike you're alive
post #44 of 53
skidoc: BTW, your S12's came from the factory with well in excess of 3 degree of base bevel, and that's a fact.

Huh? With 3 degree base bevel you might as well have no edge!
post #45 of 53
If one becomes accustomed to 1/3 will skis with less edge bevel seem sloppy on hard pack? I can see running less bevel on a bump ski for forgiveness or on a powder ski but I wonder if I ought not have the same edge on any ski I'll use on packed snow...
post #46 of 53
Skidoc or anyone else,

Is there really no downside to three-degree side bevel? Why don't all skis come that way?

How about for skiing in the bumps? I'm thinking, maybe for bumps, just make sure tips and tails are properly detuned and three degrees on the sides would be okay.

EDIT: I just deleted my question about touching up the base edges after watching the Swix videos which someone kindly posted a link to on another thread. They make it look easy enough to do by hand.
post #47 of 53
[quote=moguljunkie]Skidoc or anyone else,

Is there really no downside to three-degree side bevel? Why don't all skis come that way?

How about for skiing in the bumps? I'm thinking, maybe for bumps, just make sure tips and tails are properly detuned and three degrees on the sides would be okay.

EDIT: I just deleted my question about touching up the base edges after watching the Swix videos which someone kindly posted a link to on another thread. They make it look easy enough to do by hand.[/QUOTE

Hi,

Having worked in the Volkl factory for 11 years as a World Cup tec, World Cup Race Director, and Product Development Manager. there is no downside to having a 3 degree side edge.

Certain factories are reluctant to do it as standard fare because the implications it has on the finish production and side wall preparation to set the edge up to be finished at 3 degree are quite profound.

Factories such as Atomic produce skis with very little intrusion of sidewall cheek residing above the side edge. This creates a larger reveal of the side edge itself, just waiting to be finished to a 3 degree side edge.
Rossignol has the opposite problem. The radial sidewalls generally found on the Bandit series, may help to allow for at least a 2 degree side edge, although I've rarely seen a side edge above 1 degree on any Rossi out of the box, WC ski or inline. Check out an RPM sidewall or any Oversize 9x or 9s, it's like a brick wall. Sidewall routers will have to work overtime to make that ready for a 3 degree side edge. Great skis, horrible production side edge. Now that's a bummer.

Perception vs reality.

If I could harness all the wasted time spent on how many people obsess over whether or not to take that "big" leap to a 3 degree side edge, I think I could take a permanent vacation ripping on my sailboard.
That would be sweet.

Stop wasting time and start doing it. A great day on skis is a valuable thing.

Skidoc
post #48 of 53
Thread Starter 
I am resuscitating this old thread for an update. I just wanted to let you all know that after considering all the above, I finally took the plunge and had the side bevel of my Elan S12 fusions ground to 3 degrees. Now 1/3 base/side bevel. I am happy to report that the results were very positive. I have noticed improved edge hold on ice and although I may be imagining it, I believe I perceieve a difference in the feel of the way the edge engages. I seem to have better feel for the edge and ski smoother with it this way. I am very please by the change. Thanks to all for your opinions.
post #49 of 53
I love my Atomics' edge hold but I'm not sure I *really* understand how the 3 degree edge bevel works. The base bevel is the same and that's what determines at what point the edge hooks up. How does a 3 degree edge bevel hold better than a 1 degree bevel? Is it just that the more acute angle is a sharper blade?
post #50 of 53
I think a sharper edge cuts deeper into the ice making it easier to keep the ski from sliding sideways.

I measured the angles on my Fischer WC SC when they were new (a few days ago) and they appeared to by .5 and 3.5.

dt
post #51 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstraw
Is it just that the more acute angle is a sharper blade?
Yeah.
post #52 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstraw
I love my Atomics' edge hold but I'm not sure I *really* understand how the 3 degree edge bevel works. The base bevel is the same and that's what determines at what point the edge hooks up. How does a 3 degree edge bevel hold better than a 1 degree bevel? Is it just that the more acute angle is a sharper blade?
The side edge doesn't help initiate the turn but keeps it holding when on edge.

It feels like you are standing on a rail when in a tight carve.

I can notice the difference between 2 and 3 degrees on a hardpack day.
post #53 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scalce
The side edge doesn't help initiate the turn but keeps it holding when on edge.
I hope nothing in my post suggested otherwise.
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