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Video MA please.

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
Place - Lookout Mountain portion of NorthStar. Unsure which run.
Conditions - relatively steep soft crud beginning to form into moguls.
Trying to ski normally (for me), using retraction to begin turns at top of bigger bumps.
Me - age 58, but only skiing for 6 years. Equipment - 170cm Volkl Vertigo Motion.
What I see - decent use of edges with more inclination than I thought.
Almost looks like I'm using upper body to begin some turns, but didn't think so at the time.
video clip

Skier wished to remain anonymous for now.
post #2 of 19
Dchan,

I will give it a go!!

Pressure and Edging: This skier has good control of his edges and understand how to use pressure at the end of the turn to control turn shape. Not much work needed here. However, what I will discuss below will indicate that I would like to see an earlier inside edge and more turn shape control at the top of the turn.

Balance and Stance. The skier is in the back seat. The skis are accelerating ahead of the skier. At the end of each turn the skier must make a huge adjustment to come forward and down hill in to the new turn. Therefore, a pendulum movement can be detected, as the skier must throw his CM laterally across his skis to get into the new turn. This is a 3 to 9 O’Clock move a huge swing. The CM moves into the new turn later and later. All the turn shape is at the end of the turn and there is no early inside edge in this skier. As a result there is also a banking into the turn.

Rotary. There is good steering and guiding of the skis as the skier maintains a good parallel turn throughout the turn. There does seem to be a little upper body rotation to start the next turn. However, this may be a result of the shoulders going along for a ride and the resulting throw of the CM into the new turn.

Overall though this is strong skier that has a lot to work with. Several things come to mine to help this skier attain the next level.

1.They must orient to driving in the front seat. On a groomed green set up in a wedge, close the eyes, glide briefly and wedge stop. Where is he probably in the back seat. While on that same green have him do his best wedge turn. There will be a stem to start it. Introduce in a slow wedge the heel/toe move to initiate the turn. That really helped me under stand my CM in relation to the new turn. Work it in slowing lots of slow wedge turns moving to more parallel.

2.Tip Turns might also help focus to an earlier inside edge. A more 1 to 11 O’Clock transfer of the CM. On groomed flat greens from a traverse lean out over the tips of your skis (like a Nordic ski jumper), while in a fairly comfortable stance make slow patient parallel turns. Let whatever edge engagement you get define the turn. Link these turns together.

Work the whole mess into is own skiing. Just my .02

How did I do?

Ed
post #3 of 19
Just a quick note:

1) Feet too far apart for conditions. Move them closer together so the platform behaves as one.

2) Turn initiation is stemmed and rotated. Notice how the old outside ski is lifted on each turn, while the upper body is used to rotate the new outside ski into position -- edges are not "released" in the sense of a basic parallel turn. Needs more upper/lower body separation, pivotting when the skis are flattened.

3) Over square to skis -- too little counter

4) Rhythm? Ski turn to turn as opposed to turn to traverse. Helps lessen the "big move" at initiation and harnesses the upper body inertia for cross-over.

5) Flex/extend WAY more -- the angle of the knee joint is fixed throughout the turn. In particular, ankles need to be flexed.

6) Skis are "guided" by upper body rotation -- the uphill hand always ends up behind the skier. Keep the hands in view.

7) It appears that the pole plant is timed with the stem. It should indicate that skis are flattened, and ready to pivot (start steering).

8) Poles are held with baskets too wide apart. Thumbs up and forwards. Pole plant is a touch with wrist action only, don't let the arm/ hand move behind.

9) Some knee angulation could be added to the turn, but is not that important.

10) Shoulder position could be improved with the upper/lower body separation.

I hope this does not come off too terse. The areas of improvement are not hard to fix:

Pole drags could help a lot (shoulders too), balancing poles across wrists can help. Hockey slides with deep flexion (you know I like them). Patience turns, poling exercises (be anticipatory of the body cross-over.....) Pivot slips, javelin turn.

Hope this helps!

Cheers!
post #4 of 19
That video could be me, but I don't have a yellow jacket. At least he controlled his speed better than I. Getting that far in the backseat cost me a season!
post #5 of 19
Looks like the guy is getting a really good thigh workout!!! He is muscling his turns and then holding on for dear life until his body catches up to his skis - no small feat of athleticism and balance! Then he executes another muscle turn, and the sequence repeats. Other than that, ditto what everyone else said about his mechanics. (Also please note that I said he has good sense of balance, and not that he was well balanced on his skis in the video.)

In the video, the skier is way over-terrained. He appears in the survival skiing mode. And because he is in the survival mode, he is likely unable to utilize any suggestions anyone might give him to enable him to ski more efficiently under these conditions.

I like to see him on gentlier (and groomed) terrain before concluding how he skis, and which suggestions can make the most positive impact. Quite possibly this skier's primary tool to control speed is a skidded turn. The piled up crud in the video made it difficult for him to utilize his primary tool. I've been there.
post #6 of 19

Thanks for the feedback

I'm the skier in the video DChan graciously posted - thanks DChan.
Appreciate the feedback from all of you, and would like to follow-up with some questions please.

Powdigger - Personally did not think I was in the backseat while skiing or see it in the video until you pointed it out - thanks!
QUESTION - what does NOT backseat feel like? Pressure over balls of your feet, shin/boot contact?

BigE - Thanks particularly for the pole suggestions.
QUESTION - what is "knee angulation"? Thought I knew what angulation was, but the knee part confuses me.

Josseph - Wasn't total survival mode, but certainly challenging terrain as I was struggling with fore/aft balance.
QUESTION - would getting out of the backseat contribute to a more balanced feel?
Also - does your thigh workout comment imply that I was too flexed? Static?

Thanks all - very much appreciate your skill and time, rickp
post #7 of 19
NOTE: I'm not an instructor, just a skier who is quite interested in MA and efficient, effective skiing moves.

I see back seat position, with the torso trying to catch the skis. Looks like conscious heel weighting to get some ski float, which is unnecessary if the skier gets the legs closer together.

Not enough drive from the chi. skier's CM is lagging, not leading.

the turns look effective, but not efficient. I'll bet rickp is kinda tired after 10 of those turns.
post #8 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick p
Josseph - Wasn't total survival mode, but certainly challenging terrain as I was struggling with fore/aft balance.
QUESTION - would getting out of the backseat contribute to a more balanced feel?
Also - does your thigh workout comment imply that I was too flexed? Static?
Rick, no offense meant about the "survival mode". What I principally see are your long traverses between turns, which to me means you were having difficulty linking turns under those conditions. Here is what I think made it difficult for you: In each traverse, your weight was very far back. This extreme backseat position really taxes your quads; hence my thigh workout comment. Because you were so far behind your skis, your edges remained locked and you probably had difficulty executing linked turns - hence the long traverses. With every traverse, I see you struggling to catch up to your skis just enough to execute the next turn. Your aft position also hindered your ability to execute efficient turn mechanics, which everyone was commenting about. It is also possible that your turn mechanics also contribute to you being in the extreme backseat position, and the cycle continues. I think the key for you is to work towards skiing with a more balanced fore-aft position, and everything else will fall much easier in place. Except to suggest that you work on this issue on much gentlier terrain, I should let the more qualified folks recommend drills and progressions to bring this about.
post #9 of 19
The angulation you are thinking about is hip angulation. Edge angles are increased by keeping the knees over the skiis, and moving the hips towards the hill. In knee angulation the knees themselves are moved closer to the hill to increase the edge angle.

It allows for subtle control of the edge angle, and is most effective when pressures are low. As Fastman says in another thread, it is a weaker position, and can hurt you. I may stress especially risky at higher pressures.

Also, as I said, not all that important just yet.....

Good luck!
post #10 of 19

You bet he is :-)

You know it - tired now after looking at the video again. Consensus is back seat, so I'll start there. Thanks Gonz. rickp

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
NOTE: I'm not an instructor, just a skier who is quite interested in MA and efficient, effective skiing moves.

I see back seat position, with the torso trying to catch the skis. Looks like conscious heel weighting to get some ski float, which is unnecessary if the skier gets the legs closer together.

Not enough drive from the chi. skier's CM is lagging, not leading.

the turns look effective, but not efficient. I'll bet rickp is kinda tired after 10 of those turns.
post #11 of 19

None taken

Thanks for your candor and clarification. Amazing to me that I didn't perceive myself being in the backseat, though it's pretty clear in retrospect. Thanks again, rickp

Quote:
Originally Posted by josseph
Rick, no offense meant about the "survival mode". What I principally see are your long traverses between turns, which to me means you were having difficulty linking turns under those conditions. Here is what I think made it difficult for you: In each traverse, your weight was very far back. This extreme backseat position really taxes your quads; hence my thigh workout comment. Because you were so far behind your skis, your edges remained locked ........
post #12 of 19

Thanks for the explanation

Endless learning curve - part of the attraction of skiing of course. Appreciate you taking time to explain this. Think I'll work on the back seat issue first. rickp

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
The angulation you are thinking about is hip angulation. Edge angles are increased by keeping the knees over the skiis, and moving the hips towards the hill. In knee angulation the knees themselves are moved closer to the hill to increase the edge angle.

It allows for subtle control of the edge angle, and is most effective when pressures are low. As Fastman says in another thread, it is a weaker position, and can hurt you. I may stress especially risky at higher pressures.

Also, as I said, not all that important just yet.....

Good luck!
post #13 of 19
All of us who originally learned to ski without lessons are represented in the video. I'd agree that the laundry list of things to work on gets rapidly shorter once the fore/aft balance thing is in place.

My perception of ‘being back’ is felt by excess tension in the front of my thighs and in my belly muscles. This tension seems to peak late in the turn. On what it feels like -Not- to be in the back seat, I’d say it's a lack of this tension.

To build a stable, fore/aft-balanced turn and to feel a real difference I offer up an experiment to try;

---
On the same slope as the video, do a slightly-downhill traverse to pick up some speed, with 60% of your weight on your downhill foot and while keeping that downhill foot back about a half-boot-length (typical traverse position).

In a progressive movement, thrust your uphill foot down & backward by straightening that knee and sliding that foot back. Try to end up with 60% of your weight pressing down on the middle of the uphill ski while your downhill ski is sliding forward & getting lighter.

As the feet are changing position, your upper body should be moving -forward- in relation to that uphill ski and right along with the current downhill foot & hip. Be sure you move your upper body forward along the skis rather than down the hill.

Now tip both ski boots progressively down the hill with minimal upper body movement down the hill. The skis should smoothly begin a carved turn on their own and take you with them in a balanced fore/aft position. As the skis accelerate forward you will be braced against that the acceleration by the outside foot throughout the turn.

This is very different from launching your upper body down the hill and twisting the skis into a position to catch you.

Obviously you’ll want to modify the degree of fore/aft angles as well as lateral angles to accommodate turn shape and intent but once you’ve tried this a few times you’ll likely find your own way to perceive the balance thing.

PS: A narrow to moderate stance makes this experiment a lot easier. A wide stance will force too much lateral movement and a a kind of stepping-up move to start a slow turn initiation.

.ma
post #14 of 19
I have to agree on BigEs first point that a narrower stance will make life much easier in those conditions. Wide stance is modern technique but a narrow stance still has it's place and that video is one of them.

I see the back seat as very much a symptom and the root cause being a defensive flexed leg position. The narrow stance with the single platform may go a long way to helping you lose the defensive stance. Stretch the leg long and keep stretching long into each turn and on the down side of each bump. From the flexed position being used retraction is a tough technique to use. The longer leg will help with retraction terrain absorbtion turn initiation and ultimately get you out of the backseat and allow turn initiation to take place without muscle strain and upper body steering.

Fix the two simple things and the rest of the stuff should take care of itself.
post #15 of 19
Javelin turns... Javelin turns... Javelin turns....Did I mention Javelin turn?
It will help cure what ails you.
post #16 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick p
QUESTION - what does NOT backseat feel like? Pressure over balls of your feet, shin/boot contact?
Rickp,

Hey bud sorry that it took so long to get back but I have been skiing a lot. How it will feel not to be in the back seat will depend on each individual skier. However, your perception of shin contact is a good starting place. However, it is not always a tell-all marker.

1. Flex at the ankles to drive your shins into the tongue of the boot. A different perception is to think about driving the point of your knee to the tip of your ski.

2. Where is your butt?? Is it sticking out? Pull it in by standing up. Get your hips over your feet, maybe even over your toes. The feeling may be similar to trying to stick your belly-button out.

3. But don't let your shoulders go back when you bring your hips forward. Keep your shoulders over your hip that are over your feet (maybe toes).:

4. Hands: Keep them where you can see them. Don't let your up-hill hand get any farther up-hill than your up-hill ski.:

Hope this helps.

Ed
post #17 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick p
QUESTION - what does NOT backseat feel like? Pressure over balls of your feet, shin/boot contact?

For me it simply feels like I have my weight evenly over my foot - all along the main(inside of instep) arch...

My foot does not seem to lie.... if I feel more pressure on or towards the heel it is usually because I have got a little back... used to be from stance - now more from poor pressure control (???? Rick(fastman), Ydnar or Ric B - is this right? I think that is what the current bunch are trying to tell me is the cause & effect.... in my long turns when I jack the speed up & in quick very short turns on steeper terrain - they say I get a little back but my stance is Ok - I need to deal with the speed better...... I understand best from my regular instructor - I did not get to ski with him this season)
post #18 of 19

Thanks all

michaelA - thanks for the comments on the experiment to try.
L7 - "defensive flexed leg position" is an interesting observation - thanks.
Shen - I'll do a search on Javelin turns.
Powdigger - thanks for the "hips over your feet" mental image - a good one.
disski - haven't worked on foot pressure for a while - thanks for the reminder.

Thank you one and all for taking the time to comment, rickp
post #19 of 19
Rickp,

good luck on those turns. You have a lot to work with and you will be making break throughs soon.

Ed
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