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Drills that promote release of the old turn - Page 2

post #31 of 53
Rusty,

Could you be more specific? What's too complicated? It's 1 C and an up arrow and a down arrow. What's hard about that? Release the edge/transfer the weight, turn the feet, re-engage the edge and manage the pressure that builds on our skis. Skiing is as easy as that !

http://home.comcast.net/~shullln/turn.GIF

L
post #32 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach13
Yep. My instructor had me do this about a thousand times (it seemed) one day. Ski in a traverse, extend into an athletic stance and let the skis find the fall line, re-edge and turn back up the hill. Repeat.
Bob Barnes related a mantra to me he learned from the Mahre's....."finish the turn in the same position you started the turn". As Coach13 has so well described skiers need to seek that position most often be getting a little taller, via opening their knees and hips, by having more vertical femurs particularly with their inside legs.

Coach also brought up a great concept when he spoke of allowing the skis to FIND the fall line. Too many times students push/twist/shove their skis that way.
post #33 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
waaaay toooo complicated!

Have them get their rear ends over their feet........stand up
Rusty if it where that uncomplicated then every skier would be doing it already wouldn't they? I tell my students this very thing all the time. Keep your feet under your butt or vice versa. Far easier to say than to do. We need to give them a simple way to do that. Later, RicB.
post #34 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
Rusty if it where that uncomplicated then every skier would be doing it already wouldn't they? I tell my students this very thing all the time. Keep your feet under your butt or vice versa. Far easier to say than to do. We need to give them a simple way to do that. Later, RicB.
I'm not an instructor, so I'll add this and then step out of the way for those with the knowledge and experience to offer their advise. I can relate to this discussion because as a "learning" skier, this stuff is not too far in my past.

I think it's the perception of how complicated these moves are that hinder the developing skiers, and I think that many instructors foster this perception by having students perform drills that treat the students symptoms rather than the problem.

We've seen a lot of good "drill" suggested here, but the two best suggestions here IMO, are Ric's suggestion to relax/breath and Rusty's suggestion to "stand up".

I work with a level 3 at a local hill who does most of the instructor training there. If she has a "mantra" it's this: "You can be relaxed and patient and still have poor movements, but you will never acheive good movements if you're not relaxed and patient". She is a master at "uncomplicating" a move and I'm amazed at how I've finally been able to grasp something after I've allowed myself to relax and allow it to happen.

There could be nothing less complicated than releasing from a turn by relaxing the tension from the outside leg, standing up, and allowing the skis to find the fall line. It's just the instructor's job to convey to the student that it's really that simple. Once you get the student to that point, then you can "drill" to your hearts content to reinforce the move.
post #35 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by lshull
Rusty,

Could you be more specific? What's too complicated? It's 1 C and an up arrow and a down arrow. What's hard about that? Release the edge/transfer the weight, turn the feet, re-engage the edge and manage the pressure that builds on our skis. Skiing is as easy as that !



L
I'd label that diagram the other way. Call the down around at the top "edge engagement". You want to engage the edge at the start of the turn. Then turn the bottom arrow the other way so it also pointed down and call the edge release.

Actually, aren't edge release and edge engagement the same motion, one motion down the hill?
post #36 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by learn2turn
I'd label that diagram the other way. Call the down around at the top "edge engagement". You want to engage the edge at the start of the turn. Then turn the bottom arrow the other way so it also pointed down and call the edge release.

Actually, aren't edge release and edge engagement the same motion, one motion down the hill?
L2T,

The reason it's labeled the way it is has to do with the fact that we are turning the edges from the OLD turn off or releasing them. More correctly, I should have shown the previous turn (and the same directional arrow) as those are the edges we're releasing (like the diagram you included). That movement, IS is the direction the edge engagement for the next turn. It's all one connected movement(s), towards the inside of the turn. Folk quite frequently only think in terms of "uphill" and "downhill" while skiing. I try to get them to think in terms relative to where they are turning (inside vs outside) as these never change within one turn (unlike uphill and downhill...)
post #37 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
Rusty if it where that uncomplicated then every skier would be doing it already wouldn't they? I tell my students this very thing all the time. Keep your feet under your butt or vice versa. Far easier to say than to do. We need to give them a simple way to do that. Later, RicB.
stand up....how much simpler can one get?
post #38 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
waaaay toooo complicated!

Have them get their rear ends over their feet........stand up
Interesting... This is something that Bob Barnes addressed yesterday in a Level 2 GCT Theory clinic at Breck. It was an indoor clinic, but he demonstrated releasing without extension, and specifically stated that they are two independent skills. He demonstrated releasing the edges without changing the flexion in the legs at all.

I find it interesting that such is in slight contrast to the February 2005 SKI magazine instructional articles by Stu Campbell demonstrated by Michael Rogan at Eldora. In these, Stu mentioned keeping the hips forward for intermediates, moving them out and away from the hill for advanced, and to thrust the hips forward for experts.

I discussed this with another of the examiners in attendance yesterday to try to understand, and I suspect that it is level-dependent. However, if we're trying to teach people skills that hold from the lowest levels to the highest, should we really be teaching release via extension? (Note: I do not know the answer; I am simply attempting to understand this better.)
post #39 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
stand up....how much simpler can one get?
A challenge with this (in my experience) is that "up" means "like the trees grow" to most skiers, and this puts them into the back seat, possibly with quite a bit of momentum. We need to be clear that "up" means "out and away from the hill; into the center of the new turn". This complicates the instructions, it seems to me, perhaps enough to introduce confusion.
post #40 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by learn2turn
I'd label that diagram the other way. Call the down around at the top "edge engagement". You want to engage the edge at the start of the turn. Then turn the bottom arrow the other way so it also pointed down and call the edge release.

Actually, aren't edge release and edge engagement the same motion, one motion down the hill?
I like Eski's perspective of skiing from fall line to fall line instead of from initiation to finish. Skiing from fall line to fall line tends to smooth out the transition and allow the skis to flow more naturally. Also, as Bob Barnes has illustrated (and as I was reminded yesterday), you cannot engage the new edges early in a turn unless the skier's speed and the characteristics of the terrain combine to allow centrifugal forces to be great enough to hold the edge prior to the skis reaching the fall line.

In other words, on steeper terrain at slower speeds you cannot engage the edges until at or after the fall line.
post #41 of 53
if there was one single thought or drill that helped me release the old turn and begin the new one it was this:

BE PATIENT.

thank you for reading.

PS- Arcmeister has some EXCELLENT thoughts and drills on this issue.
post #42 of 53
Steve I'm suggesting there is OFTEN a stance from which one should release and that is one with the skeleton "stacked" or aligned with the pelvis over the boots as opposed to behind the boots. To get there the "hips" often need to be moved forward and up. How is this often done?

Extension.

From this position, which Bob often describes as neutral, one is poised to efficiently release and remain balanced or aligned.

I'm certainly not suggesting any "up movement" blended with tipping. The extension is something thatgot us to a postion from which one can efficiently go elsewhere.

I bolded the word "often". Consider a bumper compressed on top of a bump. Consider Bob's backpedaling skier which I'm certain you saw in the 201 presentation. Look at the montage here at epicski of Jen Metz skiing bumps. I would argue a compacted bump skier with full flexion may well be blending the final movement of flexion or the initial stage of extension with a "release".

Yes any release is a "tipping" movement. It CAN be blended with other movements.

I like Kip Ertl's term to sum up the moment........finisiation.
post #43 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
Steve I'm suggesting there is OFTEN a stance from which one should release and that is one with the skeleton "stacked" or aligned with the pelvis over the boots as opposed to behind the boots.
Totally get this. Makes perfect sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
To get there the "hips" often need to be moved forward and up.
I am interested in why this is. The implication is that the skis have somehow "got ahead of" the hips and one needs to make a correction to get back into proper alignment. Is it either not possible or not desireable to keep the skeleton stacked during the finish so that this correction isn't necessary?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
How is this often done?

Extension.
Is it really "extension" as a generic concept? Or is it more the dorsiflexion of the ankle while maintaining the same knee flex that effectively moves the hips forward relative to the feet? This is a pretty subtle move at high levels of skiing, I think. I fear that "extension" paints a picture of extending all of the joints (dorsiflexion of the ankle, extension of the knee and hip) that effects an "up" move (counter to your preferred result).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
From this position, which Bob often describes as neutral, one is poised to efficiently release and remain balanced or aligned.

I'm certainly not suggesting any "up movement" blended with tipping. The extension is something thatgot us to a postion from which one can efficiently go elsewhere.
Got it. I'm just making sure that I don't miscommunicate the concept to any student.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
I bolded the word "often". Consider a bumper compressed on top of a bump. Consider Bob's backpedaling skier which I'm certain you saw in the 201 presentation. Look at the montage here at epicski of Jen Metz skiing bumps. I would argue a compacted bump skier with full flexion may well be blending the final movement of flexion or the initial stage of extension with a "release".

Yes any release is a "tipping" movement. It CAN be blended with other movements.

I like Kip Ertl's term to sum up the moment........finisiation.
These all make sense. I like that term, too. Thanks!
post #44 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty
Ed,

One example was holding the inside hand/downhill shoulder high. This worked to prevent the release from being effective. So the exercise being attempted at the time was not going to work until we tackled some more fundamental issue first.
The Rusty you still out there?

Not sure I understand this, do you mean what is about to become the new inside hand?
post #45 of 53
Let me take one more stab at the topic. It's using bones not soft tissue to stand on skis, it's femurs pointing at a binding toe piece, ski "switch" and then turn around while maintaining the identical posture.

It's not folded up, it's not a lot of angles, from the side the middle of the shoulder is over the middle of the pelvis, which is over the middle of the knees which are over the middle of the foot, it is never "fixed", it moves, it seeks to stand on an operating platform never against it.

It occured to me today while teaching that IF I feel pressure I have probably stopped moving and my skis have caught up with my body. If I keep moving the skis never catch up.
post #46 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
stand up....how much simpler can one get?
Yes, simple to say. It would seem simple to us to do, but....
post #47 of 53

aiming point

I've found, (as a starting place in this process) if I move my body ( CM) at the downhill ski tip (just as an aiming point), that movement will release my "old" edge, get to a "flat" ski and allow my skis to seek the fall line. Then as I roll my ankles to the inside of the turn I increase the "new" edge and create a nice finish. The commitment of the "whole" body into the "new" turn is critical and both helps to keep the feet from advancing ahead ( and putting us into the "back seat"), and facilitates the edge change. IMHO there is no substitute for keeping "balanced" and avoiding "sitting back". Most people struggle when the skis just begin to accelerate down the fall line. Steeper terrain changes the "aiming point" of this "extension" into the new turn (and increases the acceleration of the skis!!) Therefore, if I can get them to anticipate this "ski acceleration" and keep their body balanced, the turns work well.
post #48 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibetan Tree Frog
The Rusty you still out there?

Not sure I understand this, do you mean what is about to become the new inside hand?
If I'm turning left, at the end of the turn my right foot and shoulder are downhill and my right hand is the outside hand. When I start my next right turn, these will become my new inside foot, shoulder and hand. To start the new turn, I need to release the edges from the old turn.

Try this standing at home. Stand next to a wall and lean against it (no angulation) so that the hand next to the wall is supporting you and the shoulder away from the wall is higher than the shoulder nearer the wall and the feet are tipped towards the wall. Raise your away hand up high too. This should pull your shoulder even higher. You should feel a fair amount pressure on your hand against the wall. Now try to move your hips and roll your feet to initiate the new turn. Don't push with your hands. Ooooo - that's hard.

Now step a little closer to the wall. Lean into the wall again, but this time angulate and keep the away shoulder and hand lower than the near to the wall shoulder. You should achieve the same feet (edge) angle to the floor. Now try to move the hips and roll the feet. Much easier. Much less temptation to push from the wall.

If you try to compare the first exercise with the hand raised versus not raised, you'll see that raising the hand pre-moves the hips a little to the inside of the next turn, but then "locks" the hips from further movement to the inside.
post #49 of 53

Patience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
Coach also brought up a great concept when he spoke of allowing the skis to FIND the fall line. Too many times students push/twist/shove their skis that way.
The magic word is PATIENCE. Don't rush the top of the turn.

Monday morning I was shooting video of 13 of our Level 3 candidates doing RR tracks, wedge christies and dynamic short radius turns. Almost uniformly they were too anxious to get things going at the top of the turn and tipped or chucked their upper body down the hill before release. Body goes downhill, tails go uphill.
post #50 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty
If I'm turning left, at the end of the turn my right foot and shoulder are downhill and my right hand is the outside hand. When I start my next right turn, these will become my new inside foot, shoulder and hand. To start the new turn, I need to release the edges from the old turn.

Try this standing at home. Stand next to a wall and lean against it (no angulation) so that the hand next to the wall is supporting you and the shoulder away from the wall is higher than the shoulder nearer the wall and the feet are tipped towards the wall. Raise your away hand up high too. This should pull your shoulder even higher. You should feel a fair amount pressure on your hand against the wall. Now try to move your hips and roll your feet to initiate the new turn. Don't push with your hands. Ooooo - that's hard.

Now step a little closer to the wall. Lean into the wall again, but this time angulate and keep the away shoulder and hand lower than the near to the wall shoulder. You should achieve the same feet (edge) angle to the floor. Now try to move the hips and roll the feet. Much easier. Much less temptation to push from the wall.

If you try to compare the first exercise with the hand raised versus not raised, you'll see that raising the hand pre-moves the hips a little to the inside of the next turn, but then "locks" the hips from further movement to the inside.
The Rusty,

tried this and I find it easier the shoulder away from the wall is higher. When the shoulder away from the wall is lower it pushes my hip closer to the wall and when I raise my shoulder away from the wall it starts to pull my hip away from the wall.

The more I think about this if you are going to get an early edge you are going to need to angulate early in the turn, which means you will start to have the comma shape or c shape facing up the hill. The comma or C shape being the shape formed by the body when angulating.
post #51 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikewil
The magic word is PATIENCE. Don't rush the top of the turn.

Monday morning I was shooting video of 13 of our Level 3 candidates doing RR tracks, wedge christies and dynamic short radius turns. Almost uniformly they were too anxious to get things going at the top of the turn and tipped or chucked their upper body down the hill before release. Body goes downhill, tails go uphill.
Danged if that doesn't sound like Arcmeister teaching us at Big Sky!
post #52 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikewil
The magic word is PATIENCE. Don't rush the top of the turn.

Monday morning I was shooting video of 13 of our Level 3 candidates doing RR tracks, wedge christies and dynamic short radius turns. Almost uniformly they were too anxious to get things going at the top of the turn and tipped or chucked their upper body down the hill before release. Body goes downhill, tails go uphill.
Whooo-hoooo! I have something in common with level 3 candidates!
post #53 of 53
Were there tails washing out or uphill becasue they were inclining and not angulating into the new turn?
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