Is Gore-Tex Still King? - Page 2

I guess I'm the opposite of jonnythan. I also have an EMS softshell (not sure if it's the Appollo) that I picked up in the fall of 2003. I love it, and it is my primary ski jacket. Last weekend when the temps were in the single digits in VT, I did wear it under my gore tex shell as another layer (the shell has a hood - which I like on the very cold days). If it's in the teens or above and not super windy, I'll wear the soft shell as my outer layer. It does have pit zips, so venting quickly cools me down if needed.

I was quite impressed with my gore tex shell earlier this winter in a freezing rain/snow situation. The jacket is about 8 years old, and at the top of each lift ride, there would be a layer of ice on all exposed parts. A quick shake out would get most of it off, and when we took a break everything was dry underneath. I think there's a spot for a gore shell and soft shell in everyone's wardrobe. For me I'd say the ratio is about 75/25 for soft shell/gore shell.

Well tumbler, you're allowed to have an opinion.. even if it is wrong

Just kidding. Different things work for different folks, and I can only speak about my own experience.

The other soft shell EMS made in fall 2003 was the Mercury and it came in bright red or black. That soft shell has a 100% waterproof Toray Dermizax membrane. I have one and it's killer too. Was less expensive than the Apollo, but IMO better. The Apollo is Schoeller WB-400. You can tell them apart by the tailoring. The Apollo is pretty involved and has a few extra panels, and they still make them this year. The Mercury is very simple with a plain front and two hand pockets and is a little lighter than the Apollo. Both have the light microfleece laminate inside.

I've never overheated in my soft-shell (Marmot Gravity Jacket), nor have I found it lacking in wind resistance.

The points made by Jonnythan above are valid, which is why Marmot makes shells in 3 levels of breathability, warmth and wind-resistance. The greater warmth and weather-resistance, the less breathability, and vica versa.

My jacket is level 2, and it's perfect. Right now, I don't need anything else.

In spring skiing, it'll likely be too warm. At that point, a thin hard-shell may be a better choice.

In terms of comfort, there's no comparison. The 4-way stretch provided by a good soft-shell is a delight to ski in. A soft-shell moves with you and never pulls the way a hard-shell can. Much more comfortable.

Hard shells still have their place - rain, intense windy cold, or warm, balmy spring conditions. Other than that, the soft-shell is my go-to choice for daily use.

Gore Tex in Whistler

I wore my 6 yr old NF Guide Jacket (i.e. not XCR) last week in Whistler. Skied a solid three days in rain and wet snow (don't ask me why) and had absolutley no issues. Performance was great. Moral is that I believe there are diminishing returns with different levels of Gore Tex and that the marketing machines are in overdrive devining ways to obtain our hard earned dollars.

Dont get me wrong, XCR is great - but how good is good enough?

I don't care about the charts. Australia is about as wet as you can get, our snow is wet and our rain is often monsoonal. I wore an Entrent parka for some years, and it was very good, but by the end of a wet day, it was wet (I was religious about washing it in Nikwax tech-wash and then putting pre-proofing on it).

The only fully waterproof trousers I've ever had are goretex...they resist water being forced through, like when you sit repeatedly on wet chairlifts. And my gloves (goretex, designed and made in Australia) are the only waterproof AND breathable gloves I've found.

I'm always very impressed by the labels of the other fabrics I buy, apparently those fabrics are just wonderful, shame they aren't as waterproof and breathable as goretex.

That's a point I was trying to make.. like I said, the weather you'd think a soft shell would be best (relatively warm, where you don't need lots of layers underneat) are actually the worst because that's where you really need the waterproofness.

IMO, a lot of people buy into "soft shell = cool, hard shell = not cool" and so use a soft shell where a hard shell is in reality quite a bit more functional. A lightweight 3-layer Gore-Tex XCR beats out a soft shell in all but a few conditions if you look at it objectively.

When do you need waterproofness? Warm weather? Why? (unless you fall a lot). I live in the PNW, the wettest skiing in the country, and even here waterproofness is a relative non-issue, unless you're skiing in rain.

(The exception is Gore-tex pants or bibs - always a good idea).

I've got nothing against Gore-tex. Great stuff - used it for decades. But, soft-shell to me has nothing to do with "cool". It's warm, relatively windproof, waterproof as I've needed, and vastly more comfortable.

The only reason a soft-shell may not be ideal in spring, is because it's insulated. In that case, and in the case of extreme cold and wind, a Gore-tex shell is better - with or without layers as need be.

Obviously, it's a personal choice, but I find I grab my soft-shell 70% of the time.

The only reason I suggest Gore-Tex in the extreme cold is that you can layer lots underneath it. You can also layer under a soft-shell (I do it all the time), but a soft-shell is a bit more form-fitting (a good thing).

A hard-shell is, on the other hand, is thin and volumenous, so there's no limit to what you can stuff under there.

That said, I've never been in weather cold enough to displace my soft-shell. I'm just guessing regarding conditions that prevail in the east.

My soft-shell is also highly wind resistant. The only reason I suggested a hard-shell for extreme wind is that they're almost completely wind-proof, whereas a soft-shell may be slightly more permeable.

Again, where I live, none of these are factors. I only use a hard-shell when I'm worried about rain (grim reality in PNW), or when I'm overheating.

If people have the same experience as I had when using a soft-shell (wonderfully comfortable and functional), I suspect you'll see a lot more of them on the hill.

Looser Fitting Soft Shell

This past year I retired my Hard Shell for all but rain. I purchased a Patagonia White Smoke softshell (Dillon MT outlet). The shell has fit very similar to my hard shell in that I have been able to layer under as easily as any Hard Shell I have ever worn.

This past weekend was extremely cold and windy in the Northeast and I was able to comfortably layer a base layer, mid-layer (100 wt), extra mid (thermo fleece) and a vest (300 wt). While I was a bit puffy, the jacket had plenty of mobility.

In addition to the breathability, the main reason I switched was the more durable fabric of the soft shell. I BEAT on my hard shell last year and had two of them replaced by Patagonia for damage done in the glades (love the Patagonia warranty). The soft shell I have seems bullitproof, but is much more comfortable both in movement and temperature regulation than my previous jackets.

I still carry my hard shell for rainy days, although I have yet to find it wet enough to pull it out this year. That said, I still ski in Gore-Tex bibs (Patagonia ICE-NINE), and will likely keep gore-tex for my bottoms. I still do not trust the softshell fabrics for cold wet chairs.

since Gore-Tex's patent lapsed, a number of companies like EMS have developed their own similar materials and alot cheaper. i'm biased to EMS; my wife and i have owned alot of high tech products from North Face, Spyder, Marmot, Sorel, LLBean, and Boulder Lite Gear. For our money, the EMS midweights work.

I submitted this before I realized there was a second page to this thread!!!sonofa...My post sums up as follows: I go to a hardshell because its made for nasty conditions...as someone said the tailoring is just different and they are about offering protection. The chin is higher, the hoods are bigger, they have powder skirts.

Do we really need breathability when resort skiing? beyond what XCR offers anyway? if you layer correctly you shouldn't get that hot and if its freezing you aren't going to get hot anyway. "breathability"is the "hot topic" right now.... like staying super hydrated and cutting carbs (both of which aren't that great)

Oneof my softshells is the Sierra Designs Omni softshell. It is cut looser, it has a hood that pretty much fits over my skiing helmet and its basically a hybrid design. (fairly cheap... i dont have the funding for the hybrids mentioned below)


Different conditions require different protection, you can find something that is decent all around but you'll alwaysfind a condition that makes it fail.


Nasty conditions require a good hardshell or a bomber softshell.
think Mammut Laser~but its not really that breathable and its heavy and kinda resticting in a heavy spring kinda way...

or better yet, look into a hybrid. Arc'teryx Javelin/sidewinder Comp
Mountain Hardwear Manticore
Patagonia White Smoke,

Here's my picks per conditons for skiing...($$$ no object)
Disgusting (I want total protection)
~Arcteryx Sidewinder SV (hardshell)

Cold and I'm in the backcountry (face and head protection w/ aerobic breathability)
~Mountain Hardwear Manticore or Sidewinder Comp (hybrids)

Cold and At the Resort(face and head protection)
~Sidewinder SV(hardshell)

Blue-bird (heat regulation/ snow shedding)
Cloudveil Serendipity or Arcteryx Gamma MX (softshells)
i can always use more coats

Spring conditions (heat regulation/ wet shedding)
Mountain HardWear Synchro or Gamma SV

2 Coat Quiver: Sidewinder Comp and Gamma MX

sorry i didn't read any of the comments above. But...Gore-tex is bull, hype. That great little picture of the drops moving out was probably one of the most profitable drawings of all time! skiing is a winter sport, low humidity.

I think that tells us all we need to know about your attention span.. and how much attention to pay to you.

i bought some spyder pants
please tell me they're good

did i say spyder?
i meant strike

i bougth some strike pants
please tell me they're good

Sweating inside of a nylon cocoon is high humidity.

*resisting temptation for ad hominum commentary, but hust barely*

I just bought a new Sidewinder SV. I'm psyched about the jacket, anyone think I'm going to like it when I finally get it out on the slopes? Still, I had no idea jackets could cost that much... Good thing I got it for half price (still $262...)!

I'm thinking about the White Smoke for a softshell, looks really nice...

amen bruddah

anyone moving at all generates humid air within a shell garment. whether the garment can manage that humidity becomes more important as the exertion increases, the humidity builds, and the shell takes on a "sauna suit" character. no serious athlete with any functioning mental processes would want to commit to strenuous exercise in a sauna suit.

Is it a full moon again already?

Do we need it for resort skiing? Do your sweat glands know whether you're on or off piste?

Beyond XCR? What are you talking about? XCR is for all practical realities the pinnicale at this time. I don't own XCR. Wish I did. I get by with Omni Tech.

Hydration is a fad. I'll skip what you're smoking.

my real world ski your jacket results, (not scientific)

I have skied several of the products mentioned in the thread and my real world experience corroborates some of the experiences of others and contradicts some sharply:
Arcteryx Scholler soft shell: barely breathable, Not windproof, Not water proof, Not water resistant, just a synthetic sweater with lots of pockets, way over-rated in terms of performance for any adverse conditions or sharp temperature shifts. Quiet and comfortable in mild conditions, like a sweater, but synthetic and pricey.
North Face Scott Schmidt (original release model): insulated and windproof, Not breathable at all, not even slightly waterproof. very heavy and cumbersome.
Marmot Goretex 3-layer XCR: absolutely waterproof, super windproof, Highly breathable (yet can keep in some warmth), and abrasion resistant. the best I have skied.
M.H. Goretex XCR (Descent model) waterprood, breathable, but here's the catch. This Goretex in this model is so breathable, the driving forces cited in a previous post so active, that I found it allowed too much body heat to escape while trying to stay warm on a chairlift. This model/fabric is ideal for BC, where the hiking and skiing factors are present, but regardless of layering, unless you have a windproof layer under the jacket, on the chair--brrrrr.
Predatorwear: some models I have owned: not breathable, not waterproof, not abrasion resistant despite labels claiming otherwise.
Membrain: waterproof, breathable, abrasion resistant. quite good.

Labels-some of the fabrics that have performed poorly with respect to waterproof breathable dynamics have tags all over them brandishing numbers that supposedly quantify performance. I find the numbers to be total B.S. Goretex has never slapped numbers on their tags, yet Goretex performs as claimed. I read an article about Gore-tex that provides a possible explanation for their total dominance in the field: they have deeper pockets than any of these other companies, probably more resources for R+D than all the other fabric manufacturers put together and tripled.

Nice bump.

I haven't found waterproofness to be a necessary requirement for most skiing I do. Since I sweat a lot, unless it is actually raining, waterproofness has very little to do with how wet or dry I am at any particular time while skiing. And in general even if it is raining, if I am sweating alot, it still doesn't matter much. Breathabilitiy, venting, and wearing the proper amount of insulation is much more important to me. Windproofness is important, however, I find that i prefer a semipermiable shell (not toally windproof) is good in many cases. That is when I am going 30mph down the hill I can be cooled off and then when I am going 4 mph on a lift it is effectively wind proof.

For active winter activities like BC skiing:
-A midweight softshell (not gore windstopper)
-A super light packable laminate jacket like rei elements or marmot precip in the top of my pack. This only comes out if it gets windy or stormy.
-A packable down jacket or vest. Only if I have to stop moving.

For resort skiing:
-A windstopper softshell with vents for warmish days highs above 30F.
-A insulated laminate ski jacket. With vents, powder skirt, etc...

Yup, XCR rules. No other material even close, summer or winter. Agree though that more breathability=more heat loss, so new ones require more layering. My wife dislikes XCR for this reason, not its performance.

If your insulation gets wet and doesn't dry out beucase you have enough breatability... then your heat loss is going to be really high. Low breathability is only better than higher breatability if your insulation is dry and you keep it that way. I guess I just just run really hot blooded, but the only times I ever get cold is when I am over dressed and then get sweaty.

Can anyone comment on the waterproofness of the Mountain Hardwear Conduit Laminate? I picked up a Mountain Hardwear Hooded Synchro jacket for use up in VT this winter. We ski in all weather including rain. Will I be dry or not? For my bottom half I picked up a pair of Arcteryx Minuteman Gore Tex XCR pants from SAC. Sounds like I will be dry on the bottom anyway.