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SX-11 Tune Not-so-good. Whaddaya think?

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
Recently had my SX-11's reground. The tech put on a 1 deg base & 1.5 deg side bevel. Problem is that they just don't seem to have the same edge hold on slick snow. In the past, only the hardest boilerplate caused these pups to wash out, but a few times this weekend they gave out on CO packed powder which is definitely not to be confused with Stowe ice.

What do you guys think of the bevel they created?
post #2 of 24
I would put 2 or 3 degrees on the side, more acute angle better edge hold. But also shorter life.
post #3 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
Recently had my SX-11's reground. The tech put on a 1 deg base & 1.5 deg side bevel. Problem is that they just don't seem to have the same edge hold on slick snow. In the past, only the hardest boilerplate caused these pups to wash out, but a few times this weekend they gave out on CO packed powder which is definitely not to be confused with Stowe ice.

What do you guys think of the bevel they created?
Correct me if I am mistaken, but I am under the impression that Atomics factory specs call for 1 degree base and 3 degree side?
post #4 of 24
My understanding, as well, is that Atomic is pretty adamant about 1/3 on all their skis.
post #5 of 24
1 and 3

That tech is an idiot

Hopefully he ground them correctly.
post #6 of 24
My SX:11's are in the shop now.

If they don't feel right when I get them out on snow next time, Snow and Rock are going to get it . . . . .
post #7 of 24
As Atomicman or Betaracer or both keep repeating at least once in two weeks:
1/3
I once skied completely new Head GS skis with the factory tune 1/1 before I gave them the usual 3 degrees.
A big difference on packed glacier snow (no ice).
There might be some other issues as well but this seems to be most probable.
Btw, are you sure they are 1 degree base bevel?
post #8 of 24
Thread Starter 
I am not sure of anything.
They're actually a very well respected shop in Vail that does a lot of race tunes and I'm surprised that they messed it up. In fact, they are an Atomic dealer.
I'll chat with them about it again this weekend and I'm sure they'll redo it for me, gratis.
thanks again for everyone's help.
post #9 of 24
Absolute bonehead move! they should be violated with a sharpened ski pole!

1/3 1/3 1/3 1/3 on all Atomics!!!!
post #10 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Squeaky Wheel
I am not sure of anything.
They're actually a very well respected shop in Vail that does a lot of race tunes and I'm surprised that they messed it up. In fact, they are an Atomic dealer.
I'll chat with them about it again this weekend and I'm sure they'll redo it for me, gratis.
thanks again for everyone's help.
they have killed quite some edge steel by decreasing side angle. i would seriosly demand some compensation.
post #11 of 24
3 to 1 is a lot of lost steel. Back to 3 will be a lot more *if it's even possible*. You might be asking for replacements. Even if they get them back to three without having to grind away a significant amount of the sidewall/cap, you're going to have very little steelleft for future tuning.
post #12 of 24
Thread Starter 
Yikes.
Big Yikes.
Tricky situation & I'll be sure to discuss it with them this weekend. They've done a lot of work for me in the past and I rent a locker at their shop.
What's really most surprising is that they are an Atomic dealer & I just assumed that they knew what they were doing. Additionally, they are located right at the foot of the VistaBahn & are regarding as knowing their stuff. I'll be sure to post the follow-up after this weekend.
post #13 of 24
I really think these guys are overstaing how much steel is coming off your edge.

Routinely I take my new skis and make 2 passes with a 7 degree side edge bevel tool and a panser file.

Then I go to a four until sharp and then a 3 with a fine file.

Just have them go back to a 3 degree and you will be fine. They didn't ruin your skis just mistuned them!
post #14 of 24
Thread Starter 
Thanks Atomicman.
I just got off the phone with Atomic USA and they have the same opinion as you.
The tune is bad, but in no way did it ruin the ski or take off too much steel. The rep tells me occassionally they take off too much edge during a race tune so they just start all over again.
I'll get it taken care of this weekend.
post #15 of 24
Right On!
post #16 of 24
1/3 is proper for Atomic.
In addition to this I have heard of some people complaining that some Atomics acted squirrely or "They seem to want to be on edge... can't keep them going straight."

Other than a cant problem or skiing technique I have found that they and other very wide tipped skis tend to be concave just behind the snow contact point... also at the tail. Atomic claims they make them this way on purpose. I'm not sure of that but perhaps. I've heard other opinions that state- Most skis with wide tips and tails end up this way at the factory due to the cooling off period after assembly.

Whatever the case may be, a good skier came to me with this complaint. The fix for this is to bring the base flat, BUT not completely flat or you take too much base material off. This would leave the base a bit thin close to the edges. SO... make a pass or two on the machine and keep checking with a true bar until you see the clearance between the bar and base reduce from where you saw it first down to about an inch or inch & a half... leaving some concavness in the tip and tail. Then make sure you have the 1/3 edge bevel. Wax proper and call your customer.

A week later the guy came back to tell me it solved his problem! I also teach skiing. Jabbering with him for awhile I was confident he was an excellent skier with very good form. (He could probably teach ME a thing or two!) hehehe This narrowed it down to either the concaveness of the ski or a cant problem. Since what I did solved the problem I assume he has no appreciable canting problem. Bob
post #17 of 24
A concave base would cause the ski to want to go straight. If they were "squirrly" and constantly seeking an edge that would be a symptom of base high not concavity.

I submit to you the problem is not enough base bevel in the tip & tail or a hanging burr off the side edge or as you say a cant problem which you seem to have ruleed out. None of my Atomics and I have 26 pair have been ground "flat". All of them except our speedskis are concave in the tip & tail and all ski perfectly.

Folks do not pay attention to this! Do not grind your bases flat, this is not the problem! As long as your bases are flat about an inch in from each edge they will ski fine. The hookiness is the actual tune not the base grind!

I think you probably inadvertently fixed this guys skis when you tuned them after the base grind not due to the base grind!
post #18 of 24
You will find a lot of shops just run the skis through the machine at a preset tune of 1/1 or1/2. They will run dozens of skis at that same setting. I have had this same problem with my Atomics. You have to ask for a a 1/3 tune. It also helps if the techs are a little bit smarter then the machine. If your in the Park City area go to Rennstalls. they do the best work this side of the Wasatch.
post #19 of 24
Good grief atomic man- ease up! When I did the edges they seemed to already be at 3 and 1. You are right that the bases should be flat about one inch from eash side. That is what I achieved. Now... I would think that more concavity would basically sink the edges down further causing the edges to be deeper in the snow and therefore want to turn the ski more unpredictably with the slightest left or right lean occurs.

I did this for this fellow, and it cured his concern. His edges seemed to already be correct since I did not see or feel much edge material being removed during sharpening. On the other hand if someone does not have a squrrily problem with their skis then leave it alone. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

What I did corrected this guy's problem. It ended up with the inch measurements Atomicman just spoke of. Maybe this was an odd pair of skis.
post #20 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by jyarddog
I would think that more concavity would basically sink the edges down further causing the edges to be deeper in the snow and therefore want to turn the ski more unpredictably with the slightest left or right lean occurs.
Nah, Atomicman has this right. Concave, edges deeper in the snow is nothing if not predictible. Base high, forcing you to tip the ski one way or the other to make edge contact with the snow... *that's* unpredictible.
post #21 of 24
Perhaps so. I can see that. On the other hand base low would dig the edges in, perhaps they might track, but at the slightest tip one way or the other I would think they would really grab and turn harder than one would expect. Anyway I solved the guy's problem. His edge bevels were good. There might have been some other variable somewhere, but it worked. Maybe he needed a good wax job or snow conditions, who knows.
post #22 of 24
Hey,

I'm only confused slightly on this whole thread because no one has mentioned how the edge angles have been measured. It sounds like a lot of assumption; "because the guide says it's one or three, or because the machine says it will give you one and three if you turn this dial."
I'm not saying they were not measured correctly, I just wonder if it was done or not. If so then how? There's only one way to do it with a truebar. Laser bevel meters and any other device designed to measure edge angles will never compare to a trained eye and a hairline truebar and the geometry equation one must know in order to decipher what your base edge bevel truly is.
If one grinds skis w/out plates and bindings such as I do, one will find it's very easy to create convexity under the binding area on certain Atomic skis. In particular, all "9" construction skis exhibit this problem. In fact I've seen many come from the factory this way. This is due to contact pressure not being evenly distributed over the width of the base. The Beta lobes emphasize contact pressure to the edges through the thickest core profile of the ski when grinding. There is no metal in these skis except for the new skis with Magnesium Power Rods. Models with "11" constuctions grind very predictably from edge to edge, and are notably less concave in the tip and tail regions.

Suffice to say all Atomics with a "9" designation are probably the most technically difficult skis to grind in the industry. I really don't like them very much from a servicing standpoint.

Sorry for the ramble.
Skidoc
post #23 of 24
I just came from my shop inquiring about bevel amounts.

Not sure what to do or think about the info.

When I turn my skis in for wax and sharpen I don't ask for anyting particular just wax and sharpen.

THe tech said when I do this I get a 90 degree. I then asked him what about Atomics being 1 / 3 he said he could do it but I would have had to state it specifically.

So far the tunes I get doesn't cause me any problem so to keep it simple I then asked what edge tool do I need to buy to keep the bevels the same to do a quick on hill touch up or quick sharpen. He stated the 1 degrees tool

Then another guy said no no just use the 90 degree tool.

Confused can someone explain this for me?
post #24 of 24

SX-11 tune

Marmot- High end Atomics are 3 & 1. A straight 0 or as we say 90° Is a right-now edge. You lay over and your edges are right there. This is good for slaloms. 1° base bevel is very forgiving, less likely to 'catch an edge'. Most skis are 1 & 1 or faily close to that. volkls are 1&2. 1 on the base and 2 on the side.

3 & 1, 3 being the side bevel gives a very sharp edge to present to the snow. This is good for good edge set, sharp turns, ice. If you like this, keep it. If you like the 0° keep that instead. It's your personal preference.

Every shop is different I guess. Yours sets at 90 if nothing specific is requested. The guy who used to tech for us and now is head tech for a competitive chain of stores, sets all at 1 & 1 unless something specific is requested.

I usually try to keep the ski's bevel as they came from the factory, most of which are 1 & 1, but some differ from that as teh Volkls do. K2 comes 1 & 1, but I redid my Mod X's to 2 & 1 like Volkls. I"m enjoying them that way.

Try them each way and decide what you like. Don't do this too many times. You could end up with no edges at all! That would be a bit of a bummer for a fine ski... and wallet. And above all, wax at least every third trip up. Bob
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