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lifters for fatties?

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
Anyone have an opinion on binding lifters for fat skis? (K2 Apache Chief - 98 mm waist) I've had lifters on race skis and my feeling was that they give you more power over the ski, but they also give the ski more power over you. For pow & crud I'm thinking lifters might not be a good idea, but I've never skied a plank this wide, let alone had the chance to do a lift vs no-lift comparison, so I'm kind of lost. Thanks for the advice,
porc
post #2 of 22
For what it's worth.....
I've always skied lifted race skis too. This season I mounted my 8800s with P15s and no lifter. Took them out for a few days of groomer and crud skiing and hated it. I found it to be real stable but they just didn't turn quick enough for me. So I put a lifter under the binding and love how it feels. I lost a bit of stability when going fast through crud, but it made the skis a lot more maneuverable.
post #3 of 22
Volant Machete FB's have a 12mm lifter. These skis have wicked grip and the lift helps me rail carves at 50mph on a 96mm waist.
post #4 of 22

23 mm enough? :)

I mounted a set of Tyrolia Super Carve plates on my pocket rockets. The plates are 23mm and the Cyber D9 binding I have on them add's another 10mm so I have a little bit of lift..

I think it's a great setup. IMHO don't see why you wouldn't put a lifter on a pair of fat skis, the advantages of leverage and anti-boot out still apply. I think when it comes down to it it's really a matter of personal preference. If you're planning to use the ski strictly for bottomless powder, some may argue there's no point. But if you're used to having lifters, you'll probably miss them most when trying to squeeze a couple turns in on the groomers on the way to the lift.
post #5 of 22
Yes!!
post #6 of 22
I'm going to have to politefully disagree. You don't need lifters on fat skis (over 90-mm in waist). How often do you plan on skiing the Chiefs on the groomers anyhow? I'd figure it's just back to the lifts, so why give up pow/crud performance for cat-track performance?

BTW, for those suggesting risers, do you have experience on near 100-mm waisted boards like the Chiefs or are we talking midfats? Just curious...
post #7 of 22
p14 Maxplate risers on my Legend Pros (97mm) and they work fine. Just friggin ski dude and dont worry about risers or mounting or whatever.
post #8 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit Man
I'm going to have to politefully disagree. You don't need lifters on fat skis (over 90-mm in waist). How often do you plan on skiing the Chiefs on the groomers anyhow? I'd figure it's just back to the lifts, so why give up pow/crud performance for cat-track performance?

BTW, for those suggesting risers, do you have experience on near 100-mm waisted boards like the Chiefs or are we talking midfats? Just curious...
I have lifters on my bro's, and my friend has em on his fat bastards. I like em.
post #9 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandit Man
I'm going to have to politefully disagree. You don't need lifters on fat skis (over 90-mm in waist). How often do you plan on skiing the Chiefs on the groomers anyhow? I'd figure it's just back to the lifts, so why give up pow/crud performance for cat-track performance?

BTW, for those suggesting risers, do you have experience on near 100-mm waisted boards like the Chiefs or are we talking midfats? Just curious...
Skied today on my fatboys @115 under foot with at least 20mm of lift. A little excessive but keeps them from being totally miserable on anything hard. Like cat tracks, wind slabs, avie debris, sun crust and all the other neat stuff you can run into anytime between the mid thigh stuff I was skiing most of the day.

They are much better on firmer stuff and give up absolutely nothing for the lift in the deep. You need the lift to line you up with where that fat ski pivots when you want to tip it on edge which will happen now and again no matter what you do with them.
post #10 of 22
IMHO The more 3D the snow the less lift you need or want. If your useing a fattie to crave then your on th wrong ski.
post #11 of 22
I’d be interested in knowing if the people against adding a riser to a powder ski A) ski anywhere but powder, and B) have any other skis with lifers on them that they do like (not necessarily in powder either)?

I don’t know about you guys but unless it’s a powder day I’m all over the mountain looking for powder. Most of the time you’re skiing crud and groomers to go find powder stashes … that turn out to be varying species of crud. Conditions any worse than that (i.e. packed) I’m on my mid fats with lifters.

I like lots of height on my 724, my 6*, and GS, … and SL, and … Anyway, I like lift. I can’t help but think I wouldn’t like it on a powder board too.

With that said I have an old set of Dynastar Speed Slalom plates. They’re the solid full-length plastic (no damping) kind, but with a floating heel. Those are mated to a set of Solly 900’s. The bindings alone measure about 25mm. The plate is another 11mm.

25mm sounds like a good place to start. But another thought is the floating heel piece, which will no doubt free up the tail of the ski a bit kind of like an old MRR.

Decisions decisions. The bindings will cover the plate holes and vice versa so I guess I could try them both.
post #12 of 22
Bandit Man can be such a wet blanket some times...

I would agree with him that it's not necessary, and not optimal.

however -- does that really mean that a skier who has a quiver of many pairs, all but one of which have risers, cannot give him/herself a similar distance-to-snow feel on his/her fat skis by using risers on those fat skis?

does it harm the ski, wreck its flex, what? what's the big negative?
post #13 of 22
Okay then, for me the question is do the benefits of having a riser for crud & hardpack groomers (egads it's not a powder day and you're all over looking for leftovers), outweigh the negative input to the ski for pure powder.
post #14 of 22
Once again, I find absolutely no negative input in having the lifters on while skiing the deep. Others might but I certainly do not so I've never been clear on the negative side.

Question for those afraid of lift. Have you ever skied a fat ski with lift in powder?
post #15 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
Bandit Man can be such a wet blanket some times...

I would agree with him that it's not necessary, and not optimal.
Yeah...I love being the antagonist!

I have had fats with and without lifters and I have found that I prefer the non-lift mode. On the other hand, I have solely been on twins or 90-mm+ waisted fats for going on four seasons now, so skiing without lifters is just how I do it. I do prefer that closer to the snow feel.

A while back, when shapes were coming into their own, the buzz was that lift helped avoid boot drag (dragging boots into the snow) at the more extreme angles available to shaped skis. Then the pitch was that you get more leverage, which I pretty much agree with. The later seems to be what folks are after these days.

On some skis, the lifters are heavy add-ons, like on the Sollie PE2 plate. Others are just cheap plastic and get you a bit more leverage, as mentioned. If it floats your boat (or skis), go for it. I'm just saying you can do it just fine w/o them.
post #16 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by L7

Question for those afraid of lift. Have you ever skied a fat ski with lift in powder?
Yep...I prefer them flat. Wait...I ski 912 Ti's and 914's with the mini heel lift!! Maybe I am skiing with lifters!
post #17 of 22
In the powder I don't much care one way or another but on any firm I just hate the feel of trying to hold the things on edge. For example today from mid mountain down all firm for about 12 -1500' of vert. It's only once (maybe twice) a day but I hate it and it actually makes the outside of my ankles sore. My fatties do some double duty as my rock skis so last year especially did some time skiing various stuff when no powder was around.

Most the guys I know around here who are against lift on fats have never tried the lift but somehow they 'magically know' it's all bad. One actually says it magically makes them 'turnier'.

Whatever works, just always amazes me how people can feel such different things from the same set up.
post #18 of 22
I have often thought about how lift affects one's impressions during the demo process. Most demo bindings, like a Salomon 912, have significant lift built into them. For some, that may make the ski feel more versatile for all mountain use, while others might feel that the skis "hook-up too easy" in deep snow (the two opposing views).

All I know is that since I avoid lift on my fatties, they feel more like mine to pilot (if that makes any sense), when I'm not on the groomers...which is like 90% of any given day. I feel like I can rail my fats on any groomed run (barring ice), so I haven't missed the lift.

Again...opposing opinions concerning preference.
post #19 of 22
I think theoretically you can feel the snow better in soft snow with a lower center of gravity, but no idea how much difference 20mm or so would make.

I have Tyrolia railflex on my Gotamas which have 35mm of lift, and I'm sure it helps them when I'm on groomers or harder snow, I've been able to move them pretty quick from edge to edge, but I really don't know how it affects them in deep snow, they ski damn nice, don't know if I'd tell much difference or not if I was 20mm lower.
post #20 of 22
Old School- no lift, lift bad.New School, a little (or more) lift is good. All trade offs. Lift is good on groomed for fat skis; however, if you put a plate on a ski you'll feel it in pow cause it will give you a flat spot. Big deal? probably not.My solution was to put a Look P12 Lifter on my Got's-nice balance flex with just enough lift for the days thes bad boy's come out the rack. On my everyday 90 waisted ski (MOJO) I put a Rossi Power 120 TPlateS. This gives if I remember correctly 20mm? of lift, no dead spot and you can carve like crazy on hardpack! The so called plate on this binder is really just a thin super flexible piece of plastic.A plate in name only, but it rocks on the pack.
post #21 of 22
Don't need 'em, but I have some lifters under the binding that bring me up to about ~26mm off the ski.

I like it. Doesn't hurt anything in soft stuff, and the groomers to get back to it are more interesting.
post #22 of 22
My wide Pocket Rockets have about 25mm of lift and I like that on groomers and don't mind it in soft snow. The only place I really dislike lift is in bumps. Maybe because I think lifters slow you down edge to edge. I appreciate that lifters improve leverage but stilts don't make you quicker. Don't SL skis come with less lift than GS skis?

On my narrow Fischer WC RC's (rec gs skis) I have about 55mm of lift and I love that because it makes it effortless to get the skis way up on edge. To get the same leverage on my pocket rockets I would need about 100mm of lift which would be dangerous and would cause a rigid flat spot if the bindings weren't on rails on the lifters.

So, I use my wide skis in soft snow and my skinny skis on firm snow. If there is still powder to be found, the groomers and bumps are soft enough for my wide skis without much lift.

I am no expert and this is all IMHO...2 cents....could be a bunch of bs...just felt like typing and so...

dt
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