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The two skis - Page 2

post #31 of 45
Im going to stick my neck out and maybe offer another perspective on this question. You use the term parralell turn which suggests to me that both skis are acting equally as riding the rails on a roller coaster. Now I may be oversimplifying this but it would seem to me that the ideal turn would involve exactly that both skis acting equally to affect the turn being made, obviously this is in a "perfect situation" which we all know rarely ever happens due to any number of variables. In this perfect turn it would seem to me that both skis would be equally active and passive all at the same time until they become nuetral at the completion/beginning point of the turn and then repeating.

I realize this is quite a simplified answer but as others have mentioned the forces being as dynamic as they are throughout a turn, the shift in balance changes so many times that it would be almost impossible to give a breakdown of a real world turn that would be completely accurate.
post #32 of 45
Thread Starter 
stand in neutral at the end/beginning of the turn
It sounds like Bud takes exception to this instruction from Wigs. I think it's a way of saying, Finish a turn ready to start the next one. Works for me!
post #33 of 45
Originally Posted by bud heishman
to "stand in neutral at the end/beginning of the turn ........."

while I cyberlly visualize myself skiing through each one of these threads, some make very good sense and others I fall over. This one, I fell over.
Well Bud, You have to be moving before this works.---------Wigs
post #34 of 45
Thread Starter 
Hi Jake, welcome to the fray.

By active and passive I am making a distinction between human-driven and force-driven. In this I may be splitting hairs, but it's a difference I seem to dwell on in my teaching. I want forces to drive the outside ski, and I want dominion over the inside ski so I can shape the turn to my particular purpose. This activity of the inside is not wild or uncontrolled, but rather subtle and fine (though sometimes approaches a desperate jungle move).

But please let me be clear: I do not want to create a bias in myself or those I influence toward the inside ski. If anything, the outside ski is primary and the inside ski is secondary, but I prefer to take your tack that both are equal participants in skiing. The actions of the inside ski enable the outside ski to be force-driven. The story of the two skis is not about a contest, but of a synergistic relationship, a partnership like Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers.

My mantra is activate the inside ski to transfer more power to the outside ski.
post #35 of 45
Originally Posted by ssh
I think of balancing on my outside ski, and shaping the turn with my inside ski and the angle of the edges of the two skis. The outside ski is pressured more, thus it cannot be manipulated nearly as much as the inside. If this is passive/active, then such makes sense to me.
The outside ski CAN be manipulated quite a bit! It can be actively steered the moment it goes flat. And that action is not force driven, it's quite human driven.

OR are we talking only about pure carving? Are we taking about equal edge engagement/weight distribution? Then there is again no ability to manipulate one ski over the other....

Are we talking about full-on high edge angle carved WC turns? Or recreational "centre-line" turns?

I am obviously missing context. A young racer will say different than their resort skiing parents.....
post #36 of 45
Nolo I must say that I really enjoy the Fred Astaire reference, I feel you just summed up my feelings on it completely. Its a totally simbiotic relationship where one ski is not whole without the other. Almost always contributing equally however if you were to take one cross section of the carve you could find times when one is pulling more of its weight than the other, but the other will always get its turn too. That is if we want to go and get all philosophical about it.
post #37 of 45
I peeked at this thread the day it opened. Yesterday was the first chance I got to think about foot roles and because it was a day that ranged from 18" pockets of wettish untracked powder to 12" of heavyish crud, and because I was on a new ski and wanted to play with different turn types and styles, I found some new reminders on foot roles. many of them have been stated here, although in somewhat different words.

Originally Posted by ydnar
Ride ski and guide ski. In most skiing the ride ski is the outside ski and the guide ski is the inside ski. The ride ski becomes the guide ski when I roll it from the big toe edge to the little toe edge. There are exceptions to these generalities. It is possible for both skis to be ride skis or guide skis at the same time or one ski can fill both roles at once, etc.
Originally Posted by Ghost
Let me add that you can only get so much out of the inside ski, because its position limits how much it will give before its torque pushes the cm to the outside of the turn.
Originally Posted by Bob Peters
I think it depends a great deal on what kind of turns you're making in what kind of conditions. All I've skied for the last few days is powder (sucks to be me, huh?). In powder and crud, then, I'd have to say that when I'm skiing the best I can, BOTH skis are exceedingly passive. They're just something to stand on while I've covering ground.
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson
Ski the bottoms of your feet. If you make a turn, the action of turning will increase pressure on your outside foot. If you DESIRE to make a turn, start by using YD's guide foot to begin the turn.
Originally Posted by Arcmeister
I think there is an evolutionary process skiers can go through that cycles thru each higher skill level. Beginners are hard pressed to do much of anything different with either foot/ski. Experts and racers can do anything with either at most any time. The learning cycle usually starts by skiing standing mostly on both feet during a turn but stepping thru transitions. Then learning more specific roles for each, such as releasing with new inside foot and to predominantly balance on the outside foot. Then using inside foot activity to regulate edging and turn shape. Then learning to use flexion/extension to regulate pressure with the outside leg and regulate lateral movements with the inside leg. The process comes full circle when the skier can share the specialty skills of inside/outside leg roles to be employed at a high level of precision by both legs, either at the same time, or in a sequence of choice. And then continually cycles through an ongoing process of awareness and refinement.
Originally Posted by Arcmeister
The inside ski is either an enabler when is working, or an inhibitor when it is not, and there really is no in-between. As one attempts to carve turns of increasingly shorter radius, the contrast between the inside foot/ski working for you or working against you becomes increasingly evident.
post #38 of 45
I am glad I could make you laugh Pierre and I understand the intent but you can see my point. The emphasis on "Brief"! Not much time to make a decision before impact. Though I think nolo's view reflects the possibilities that are available to the skier at that particular split second when one is in perfect dynamic balance, the skis are flat, and the momentum is with you, the options are many as long as they are down hill.

I think Wigs and Arc have it nailed and should be appointed liaison to all martians on elevators.
post #39 of 45
Originally Posted by nolo

My mantra is activate the inside ski to transfer more power to the outside ski.
That is news to me. Where were you when I needed you.
post #40 of 45
Thread Starter 
When did you need me, Biowolf?

Arc and Wigs would make excellent elevator emissaries of epicski. I like what you say about that split-second when you are like a fly on the wall. I just love the sensation of standing perpendicular to the wall for that nanosecond, and having cleaned the slate for the next turn.
post #41 of 45
I like the fly analogy! but the fly isn't moving.... Again the description just seemed static to me when it is but a split second in a moving train. I'll bet anybody that they can not pause in that position for a nanosecond. It is but a blink of an eye and one of the reasons I have always preferred talking about turns as beginning and ending in the fall line because if there is anywhere in a turn you can rest or pause without reprocussion it would be there. Still I see your point nolo and can relate....see my post on the other thread about cm.

Looking forward to meeting all of you soon!
post #42 of 45
Ummm - my CM is furthest in line from the line my skis take at the FALL LINE .... so how could I stop & rest there (except maybe lying on snow)...

post #43 of 45
I said " IF " there is anywhere we could pause.

While coasting a bicycle down a windy road it doesn't take much effort to balance against the forces until you decide to turn the other direction. I think the same is true in skiing, once the arc has begun and the skis are engaged and de-chambered, for a brief time one could rest so to speek (not literally) and simply stand balanced against the forces. In fact if we simply made the neccessary adjustments to maintain balance while staying in this arc until we came to a stop, there wouldn't be much more to do. Just ride the train to the station. On the other hand if we, (where the "cm is furthest in line from the line my skis take") in the fall line, decide to turn the other direction....the restbit is over and the work begins to redirect the cm.

fluid turns obviously require fluidity which is why I made the joke earlier. If there is one place in a turn that level 7 & 8 skiers need to focus on it is this edge change transition fluidity so why talk about ENDING something and STARTING something else? Why not visualize one fluid movement of the feet and cm to the fall line then do it again? It is just easier for me to think of it this way and to imagine the sensations I am reaching for. When my legs are extended as I am rounding the fall line I am the most relaxed.

It's a way of saying finish a TRANSITION and begin a new one! This works for me

I notice that the majority of level 7 and 8's do not have problems with their turns during the fall line phase (2 o'clock to 4 o'clock) Hmmm? what needs work? and should we think or tell our students to stop in the middle of that work then start again??....

Historically instructors have thought this way (starting and ending each turn across the hill) and dating back to the era of wooden skis and long thongs, where each turn ended in a traverse, it was very viable. We don't create platforms to step off of anymore, we release edges and reengage edges. Today it seems dated and creates a psychological impedement to fluid transitions. These fluid transitions are what separate intermeadiate skiers from expert skiers and should be thought of more holistically than segmented in my humble opinion.
post #44 of 45
Originally Posted by bud heishman
It's a way of saying finish a TRANSITION and begin a new one! This works for me
That's getting filed for future use....thank you!
post #45 of 45
Thread Starter 
We don't create platforms to step off of anymore, we release edges and reengage edges. Today it seems dated and creates a psychological impedement to fluid transitions. These fluid transitions are what separate intermeadiate skiers from expert skiers and should be thought of more holistically than segmented in my humble opinion.
This too is excellent, Bud.
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