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Axis X or Bandit X ?? - Page 2

post #31 of 35
This lightweight stuff SUCKS!! I'll have another beer now and maybe gain some useful flab. It'll be flab, because I don't think these chromosomes will let me make any more muscle. I'm going outside now to have some target practice with my sling. I'll need some behemoths for targets - volunteers?
post #32 of 35
brother oboe,

this is degenerating into another one of those "poseur ski" bashes, sort of.

skis do not "fold up." anyone who says they do is either lying or using a TERRIBLY poor metaphor.

Axis X is plenty burly. Just ask Ed (Powdigger).
post #33 of 35
Hi Gonzo -

I totally agree that the phrase "folds up" vastly exaggerates the phenomena that VailSP is describing. The phrase stinks. "Folds up" suggests a really sharp fold like on an envelope, whereas I would prefer a description similar to what I said in an earlier post in this thread:

>"...he obviously doesn't mean "folding" literally, he just
>means that most of the flex is occurring in the middle of the ski
>not at the ends or distributed over the length of the ski."

I have heard other people use the phrase "fold up", and knew exactly what VailSP meant when he said it, but, like you, would prefer a more accurate term.

If you want to see a photo of a ski that is doing this, and if you happen to have access to a copy of "The Skier's Edge" by LeMaster, take a look at Fig. 3.8 (p.24) and compare the shape of the downhill ski in that photo with Fig. 2.2 on p.7 (lowest image in the montage). In the former photo, both the forebody and aft section of the ski are almost perfectly straight (ie, without flex), but clearly meet in a wide-mouthed "V" under the skier's boot. OTOH, in the latter photo, most of the flex occurs near the tip and tail with hardly any deviation from a straight line underfoot.

You tend not to find many skis that "fold" (ie, are much softer underfoot than at other points along the length of the ski), because the vee-shape that results when such a ski is loaded doesn't conform to a smooth carved arc, leads to abrupt transitions in performance between weight-forward and weight-back situations, has an unusual ammt of drag, and generally feels odd.

I should also point out that the greater the overall stiffness, the more difficult it is to feel (or even measure) differences in flex patterns (at a fixed value of overall stiffness).

An example of a ski that is fairly stiff overall, but has an unusually large fraction of its overall flex concentrated underfoot is the first generation (silver and black) Stockli Stormrider. This is quite apparent if you put this ski in a testing apparatus, support the tip and tail, load the middle, and measure the deflection at various points along the length of the ski with a machinist's dial indicator and plot the results. This is extremely easy to do in a machine shop using a Bridgeport or other milling machine (holding the dial indicator in the spindle/collet of the mill), but can even be done on one's floor if one is sufficiently careful to minimize or correct for systematic errors like bumps in the floor, small deflections of the end supports, etc..

BTW, for completeness, I should reiterate that I have never skied or measured the Axis-X or X-pro, and have only skied (but not measured) the Axis (= 7/8) (as I mentioned above).

Solamente mi dos pesos,

Tom / PM

[ May 29, 2002, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: PhysicsMan ]
post #34 of 35

My apologies for using such a proprioceptive term as "folding". That is how my mind "feels" (perceives) the action of the ski.

My meaning/ implication of the term "fold(ing)" is simply that there is a flex point (break) in the AXIS X (approximately 6-8" ahead of the boot toe, right near the back end of the upper core) which at certain pressures(loading/weight) can cause accentuated flexing at this non-productive place in the ski.

When that flex point results in excessive bending(de-cambering) in such a short section of the ski, especially so close to the center of it's weight distribution, it creates a friction point. This results in a deceleration of the ski, usually causing the CM to move further forward than is beneficial.

So- unless you anticipate this effect, and purposefully position your CM back far enough to counteract this situation, this condition will exist.

Lighter or less aggressive skiers will probably never feel this effect, as it does require a heavier/ more aggressive skier to create the loading necessary for it to occur.

I have been aware of this effect since I tested the prototypes of the MOD series back in the summer of '98.

The AXIS X- "burly"? Not exactly the term I would use to describe it! But a great ski for those under 185 #.

post #35 of 35

thanks for the clarification. Since I weigh only 155-160 lbs, maybe I'm too light to sense the "folding," but I can assure you that I'm not insufficiently aggressive. I do try to ski "light on my feet" but sometimes punch the skis harder than they want.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you and PM have described, but it sure sounds like you are trying to ski the Axis X with old-school hard forward pressure. IMHO the Axis X wants a skier who stands right on the sweet spot, and with a bit more weight toward the heel(foot)/tail(ski) than other skis might expect.

I've also talked to a friend who's a PSIA III instructor and does early prod demo for K2 and Salomon. He is beefier than I am (approx 225 lbs or so) and he agrees with me that the "too soft" label is a result of people NOT LISTENING TO THE SKI... in other words, people who want the ski to conform to their technique, rather than vice-versa.

However, if in calling the Axis X soft one means that it doesn't have the same type of super-snappy, powerful-pop feel of a Volkl SL racing ski, I would have to agree!
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