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A New Look at the PSIA vs. PMTS "Debate" ? - Page 4

post #91 of 125
I'd suggest that "tipping" a ski involves rotating it on it's longitudinal axis. My obsevation of the "Phantom Move" is that there is a rotary element to it. Remember, steering is done with rotary but all rotary is not steering. Knees are hinge joints that only move in one plane. Something else has to happen for them to move sideways.(edging)
Great post Arc.
I do remember that you weren't the only examiner that required release of the downhill ski to pass on the Centerline wedge. The "official" description in the first manual talked about it.
I have not only watched Harald's videos but have analyzed parts one frame at a time. There is one sequence, the "one footed release"?, I don't remember what he called it, where he not only massively steers his weighted ski but a small wedge appears until the fall line phase. The actual movements bear no resembalence to the verbal description he gives.
When I mentioned Harald's name, in conjunction with a narrow stance, to a coach friend of mine, she said, "I know him, he advocates an over wide stance". She refused to believe that he was teaching that way. :
I'm really looking forward to meeting him and, hopfully, talking one on one with him.
post #92 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyxjl
To me, once you are a black diamond (or expert) skier, you have a solid foundation to fully benefit from experimentation.

.
a) what is a "black diamond or expert skier" (here we go again : )

b) my instructor (an examiner) told me that when you have good stance & balance on a black run you are ready to start to learn to really ski....

I have decided he is correct in this (not that I ever really doubted it) .... what is your take on this?
post #93 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
onyxjl,

Conpare Lito's inclusive comments on steering with Harald's absolute condemnation.

There's quite a contrast between the two positions.
Lito's quote makes sense, but HH's makes no sense at all.

yeterday morning on nice firm groomers I was playing with tightening up my carved turns and really being dynamic, so I was playing with femur rotation to acomplish this. really fun to zip from arc to arc loading the skis with femur rotation. Guess I was doing it all wrong Eh?

End of day and now I can go up high and ski bridgers double blacks and blacks. tight bumps, steeps and the occasional early season rock and stump. Steering? you bet. femur rotation you bet. Psia skiing? probably. Good skiing? Well it felt good and flowed pretty well.

Some will cut down all the other trees in the forest to be the tallest tree. Who is HH kidding. It is statements like this that make me want to hurl. Later, RicB.
post #94 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
Lito's quote makes sense, but HH's makes no sense at all.

yeterday morning on nice firm groomers I was playing with tightening up my carved turns and really being dynamic, so I was playing with femur rotation to acomplish this. really fun to zip from arc to arc loading the skis with femur rotation. Guess I was doing it all wrong Eh?

End of day and now I can go up high and ski bridgers double blacks and blacks. tight bumps, steeps and the occasional early season rock and stump. Steering? you bet. femur rotation you bet. Psia skiing? probably. Good skiing? Well it felt good and flowed pretty well.

Some will cut down all the other trees in the forest to be the tallest tree. Who is HH kidding. It is statements like this that make me want to hurl. Later, RicB.
Great Post!

I'm working hard at present on my bump skiing. I skied with a friend of mine, Bob Booker, several weeks ago whom I think is one of the smoothest bump skiers that I have ever seen. I asked him for a lesson. We went to a pitch with small bumps and did pivot slips in these bumps. It was fun, was not at all easy, and required pretty darn good tactics. In a word it helped .

I was teaching a lesson yesterday to a fairly new skier in the bumps. The person was doing well, however, a tad frustrated.

At the end of the day I came to one conclusion. In order for this person to go to the next level in the bumps she has to get a grasp of pivot slips. I ran this by her and she said great. Next lesson will be on moderate cord and we're going to learn rotation with the quietest upper body that you have ever seen.
post #95 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
onyxjl,

Conpare Lito's inclusive comments on steering with Harald's absolute condemnation.

There's quite a contrast between the two positions.
HH has developed a series of excercises to help the majority of casual skiers who are stuck in the intermediate rut of excessive rotary at turn initiation. Everything he advocates is something they either need to try (no rotary) or that they think they want to do (narrow stance). That no rotary stuff is something every skier should learn, but it's just part of the skills you need to ski effectively at a high level. "Carving only" won't work in bumps or in genuinely steep terrain.
Harald's marketing seems to involve some cult-like characteristics, which are probably the result of his strong personality. I think all the "TTS" bashing is unfortunate, but he's got to make a living. PSIA is an easy target because they have 20,000 or so members, and it's just not possible to keep them all on the same page. Nevertheless, PSIA has a comprehensive Skiing Model that can be used to describe all skiing, from beginner level through World Cup. PMTS has maybe 100 instructors, and HH can get them all to at least understand his simplified progressions, but the "no rotary" model will never help you understand high level skiing.

John
post #96 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
Great Post!

I'm working hard at present on my bump skiing. I skied with a friend of mine, Bob Booker, several weeks ago whom I think is one of the smoothest bump skiers that I have ever seen. I asked him for a lesson. We went to a pitch with small bumps and did pivot slips in these bumps. It was fun, was not at all easy, and required pretty darn good tactics. In a word it helped .

I was teaching a lesson yesterday to a fairly new skier in the bumps. The person was doing well, however, a tad frustrated.

At the end of the day I came to one conclusion. In order for this person to go to the next level in the bumps she has to get a grasp of pivot slips. I ran this by her and she said great. Next lesson will be on moderate cord and we're going to learn rotation with the quietest upper body that you have ever seen.
Thanks Rusty Guy. I use pivot slips and if they struggle with them, use falling leafs and 360's then and take them into the bumps. I had my whole mens workshop last year trying to ski pivot slips in the bumps. Just trying slow side slips and falling leafs down through the bumps can open doors for people.

I'm always trying to improve my bump skiing, and all the rest of my skiing too. Later, RicB.
post #97 of 125
I saw you dive into the John yesterday, Ric. You were both solidly rooted and confidently flowing--very nice skiing! I like what those snazzy new boots are doing for you--I think you had too much ramp before and now you're just right.
post #98 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
a) what is a "black diamond or expert skier" (here we go again : )

b) my instructor (an examiner) told me that when you have good stance & balance on a black run you are ready to start to learn to really ski....

I have decided he is correct in this (not that I ever really doubted it) .... what is your take on this?
Disski, I think I would answer a with your b. I hesitated to say expert because I didn't want to invoke the debate about what an expert means. I was intending to use a very inclusive definition of people who are comfortable skiing lift served black diamond terrain and do so with an efficient technique. I think this is probably pretty close to what most people mean when they use the term "expert" skier, and what they initially aspire to become.

I totally agree with that statement, and I actually almost quoted it in my first post. I am not there yet, but I want to be, and am looking for the path of least resistance to getting there. PMTS gives this impression partly because of its attacks on PSIA. The intermediate skier has a hard time knowing any better (thats why they are intermediate), so the argument carries more weight than it perhaps ought to.

After a few lessons with Arcmeister though, it is fully obvious that the aspiring skier is much better off with an instructor who understands the teaching systems, rather than spending a lot of time worrying about it themselves.
post #99 of 125
Shouldn't we just forget about PMTS and go to the Austrian system which is producing such super skiers? I think I know why, not many folks around here read German and the abundent literature is not readable to most. Availability of lessons is not a problem since there are at least and probably more lessons available from Austrian guest instructors here in the US than are from PMTS.

Also, if you get what disski refers to as the 'staatliche', an instructor who is 'Staatlich Geprueft' , meaning he is Austrian Federally Licensed and those folks come mostly with a college degree in physical education with a major in skiing and the ones I have met can teach anyone to ski anything correctly and taylor the moves to the student.

And since HH in one of his posts prolaimed that he has no longer any intention to make PMTS THE national system and has classified himself as a speciality program why aren't we comparing PSIA to the Egans, the DesLauriers, Bill Kidd, the Mahres and any other speciality programs in the USA?

.....Ott
post #100 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyxjl
Disski, I think I would answer a with your b. I hesitated to say expert because I didn't want to invoke the debate about what an expert means. I was intending to use a very inclusive definition of people who are comfortable skiing lift served black diamond terrain and do so with an efficient technique. I think this is probably pretty close to what most people mean when they use the term "expert" skier, and what they initially aspire to become.

I totally agree with that statement, and I actually almost quoted it in my first post. I am not there yet, but I want to be, and am looking for the path of least resistance to getting there. PMTS gives this impression partly because of its attacks on PSIA. The intermediate skier has a hard time knowing any better (thats why they are intermediate), so the argument carries more weight than it perhaps ought to.

After a few lessons with Arcmeister though, it is fully obvious that the aspiring skier is much better off with an instructor who understands the teaching systems, rather than spending a lot of time worrying about it themselves.
Sorry - but I have to disagree(I told you this would start it all again) - what that guy referred to in b) is not EXPERT at all - simple an advanced skier ready to start to learn all the bits they need to ski everything....

I would not count myself as anything close to expert (ski anything well) I'm only just starting to be able to "survive" most conditions on the mountain I am at home on.... I have been assured my stance & balance are good for 2+ years now (except if I stand above a sudden drop & start to freeze).... I am always complaining I am backseat & being reassured I am not... just my pressure control sucks!
post #101 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott Gangl
Also, if you get what disski refers to as the 'staatliche', an instructor who is 'Staatlich Geprueft' , meaning he is Austrian Federally Licensed and those folks come mostly with a college degree in physical education with a major in skiing and the ones I have met can teach anyone to ski anything correctly and taylor the moves to the student.

.....Ott

Yep Ott - They ROCK! Excellent instructors they make.... I have had 2 aussies with staatlich & 1 or 2 austrians - all good....
post #102 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
I saw you dive into the John yesterday, Ric. You were both solidly rooted and confidently flowing--very nice skiing! I like what those snazzy new boots are doing for you--I think you had too much ramp before and now you're just right.
I would agree that my new boots are great fit. My stance is more solid than before. Tis amazing what a degree or two can do! Go Atomic! later, RiCB

P.S. Thank you Nolo.
post #103 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
Sorry - but I have to disagree(I told you this would start it all again) - what that guy referred to in b) is not EXPERT at all - simple an advanced skier ready to start to learn all the bits they need to ski everything....

I would not count myself as anything close to expert (ski anything well) I'm only just starting to be able to "survive" most conditions on the mountain I am at home on.... I have been assured my stance & balance are good for 2+ years now (except if I stand above a sudden drop & start to freeze).... I am always complaining I am backseat & being reassured I am not... just my pressure control sucks!
We don't disagree at all really. Or at least I agree with you that b) is not an expert skier. However, someone who can do b) is certainly a black diamond skier (which is why I was trying to stick to this phrase).

What I was approaching was more the idea that initially I believe most skiers want to be an "expert" so that they can ski black diamond runs on lift served terrain. Once someone is getting to that point, their definition of expert expands and changes. We were in agreement earlier I believe in a post titled "Are you a good skier." I think we noted that your definition of how good a skier you are is tied directly to your knowledge of skiing. Its not that your skills somehow diminish, rather the mountain just gets bigger.
post #104 of 125
"He who is not busy being born is busy dying." Bob Dylan

As an accomplished musician I can attest that one is never "there."

A beginner might be at one level, an intermediate at a higher level, and an expert at a yet higher level - but we are all the same distance from infinity.
post #105 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott Gangl
And since HH in one of his posts prolaimed that he has no longer any intention to make PMTS THE national system and has classified himself as a speciality program why aren't we comparing PSIA to the Egans, the DesLauriers, Bill Kidd, the Mahres and any other speciality programs in the USA?

.....Ott
Can we compare PSIA to the DesLauriers? Anybody familiar enough with DesLauriers to start a discussion on that topic? I know I have the PSIA topic covered, but don't know enough about the DL program to start a good discussion.
post #106 of 125
>>>> Can we compare PSIA to the DesLauriers? <<<<

Eric posts here as 'eski', ask him... I think he may tell what any good instructor will tell you: he teaches skiers to ski better than they do now....

....Ott
post #107 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott Gangl

And since HH in one of his posts prolaimed that he has no longer any intention to make PMTS THE national system and has classified himself as a speciality program why aren't we comparing PSIA to the Egans, the DesLauriers, Bill Kidd, the Mahres and any other speciality programs in the USA?
That's rhetorical question right?
post #108 of 125
Right.

...Ott
post #109 of 125
Sorry to revive this thread from it's hopeful and justified death, but in glancing through some of the postings on Realskiers I stumbled upon this little jem from SCSA that I just couldn't couldn't resist sharing with you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCSA
This is important. I sent this to John, thought I'd share it with...the he/she/its.

One of the big complaints about PMTS is that it advocates an up move. Wrong! Wrong, wrong, wrong. The naysayers have confused flex and extend, to be an up move. Now here's where I will challenge anyone. If anyone thinks PMTS teaches an up move, let me know. I'll show you on the snow, that you're wrong. Then you'll buy me a beer.

Now here's a clip of an email I just sent Mason. later,

########################

John, with what I learned from HH this last time, I feel like skiing is brand new. I'm totally excited to work on my turns. Ripping, is a much lower priority with me now.
It's groovy. PMTS skiers really are different. Once again, HH has come through -- big time!

Don't get sideways with Lito's stuff. He talks about -- and even advocates -- an up move. It's in his video. Don't do it! Flex and extend! Flexing and extending, is in NO WAY AN UP MOVE. I can prove it to anyone, anytime, on the snow.

Now, does an up move work? You bet it does. That's what 99% of all skiers do. I was doing it. But that's not PMTS. I'm really starting to wonder now, if HH invented the flexing move. I've never see it taught/talked about, anywhere.
What?? : Wow, this just blows me away. Now the faithful followers think Harb invented retraction, and they don't think anyone else knows about it or teaches it, they think it's a secret treasure of their private domain. :

I think these poor souls need to be kidnapped, deprogramed and returned to their loving families before they obediently start chugging Kool-Aid.
post #110 of 125
nah - let 'em wait for the space ship
post #111 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Sorry to revive this thread from it's hopeful and justified death, but in glancing through some of the postings on Realskiers I stumbled upon this little jem from SCSA that I just couldn't couldn't resist sharing with you:


What?? : Wow, this just blows me away. Now the faithful followers think Harb invented retraction, and they don't think anyone else knows about it or teaches it, they think it's a secret treasure of their private domain. :

I think these poor souls need to be kidnapped, deprogramed and returned to their loving families before they obediently start chugging Kool-Aid.
I think maybe it is too late. Just stay outa the way of their chainsaws. Later, RicB.
post #112 of 125
In defense of PMTS, the phantom move always said LIFT and TIP (later it became LIGHTEN and TIP). Either way, lifting or lightening are retraction moves anyway. No pushing and stepping to the new outside foot anyway.

The "up move" that SCSA talks about is purely for the novice skier who neither has the speed or the necessary forces to avoid falling upon retracting the new inside foot. Novices will tend to "step" to the new outside foot, hence the criticism from PSIA people.

I am probably only saying the obvious, but anyhoo.
post #113 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdowling
...Nevertheless, PSIA has a comprehensive Skiing Model that can be used to describe all skiing, from beginner level through World Cup. PMTS has maybe 100 instructors, and HH can get them all to at least understand his simplified progressions, but the "no rotary" model will never help you understand high level skiing.

John
Not sure I follow you here. Personally, I do not judge how good a school is by the number of its adepts. As a matter of fact the best colleges in the country are usually relatively small in number of students (think Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford as opposed to U. of Maryland, U. of Minnesota,
Ohio State, etc..) . Also, the materials Harald Harb makes available are of the highest quality, and head and shoulders above volume 1-2-3 PSIA used to have (now they are just reference material). Stepping Stones is a poor excuse for a book. It were not for the instructors at my local resort, I would not know what a Spiess turn is or I would not know what a javelin turn is meant for.

Simplifying a progression is an enormous step forward if it works. We strive for it in all paths of life be it math, engineering, or even manufacturing processes. So you are wrong to use "simplified" in a derogative way. You should admire the attempt, at least. Semplification is key to progress.
Unless you are against progress, of course, but then you should say so.

I wish somebody explained to me what wedge hops are really good for, for example. I know that in the RM division they barely browse through them, but in the Central division you could fail your level II if you cannot perform them properly. Is this what we should think of as the opposite of Mr. Harb's "semplified" ?

I am a PSIA, but we are not perfect as a group and anybody who makes us think more to improve is welcome in my world, be it Harald Harb, Mickey Mouse or Spyder Man.
post #114 of 125

gosh Fastman - you brought SCSA back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
What?? : Wow, this just blows me away. Now the faithful followers think Harb invented retraction, and they don't think anyone else knows about it or teaches it, they think it's a secret treasure of their private domain. :

I think these poor souls need to be kidnapped, deprogramed and returned to their loving families before they obediently start chugging Kool-Aid.
SCSA is misinformed. But nice to see you're over on realskiers. What SCSA is talking about is what you called the leg extension turn in that long long long discussion a while back that I was calling the EWS turn. But I thought he was banned from this board. Doesn't that include quotes?
post #115 of 125

Orange Fish - Xclinics and their book

Orange Fish, a book you'll want to pick is is:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...77624?v=glance

Ski the Whole Mountain by Eric and Rob Deslauries

Ott suggested we should be comparing PSIA with what they teach since HH isn't looking for PMTS to take over the world anymore.

However, what cracks me up, is Eric and Rob's book is their version of advanced ski movements as applied to all mountain skiing. Oh, I mean, read that, their version of PMTS ski movements since they are one and the same.

In fact, the appendix on drills in the back is straight out of the PMTS instructor manual.

But Ott, you know I always bring this up whenever I see people post that PMTS is limited. It sure doesn't look limited when I see top PMTS skiers rip up the bumps.

Seriously, it's a great book. It doesn't start at the beginner stuff like HH's stuff, but picks right up in the middle of PMTS at what in the PMTS world we call the Super Phantom turn. This is on page 35. This is a great drill to learn to turn without active steering and balancing and using the outside leg as a "stance" leg. This concept of a strict stance leg is one of those things that you don't get in PSIA's understanding of WC on down skiing. At least I've never seen it in any PSIA literature. So it's probably garbage. But you might like to try it. Obviously since Eski is a bear coach sometimes it's ok to talk about this on Epic even if the PSIA understanding of skiing skips this.

(ok tongue still in cheek a bit - Fastman - I'll have to tell Bruce - former Nat Demo Team member - he has to watch that brainwashing)

Do pick up the book. People get real emotional about HH and the way he has and does bash PSIA and you can detect the animous. (nor do some here like the title "anyone can be an expert skier"))

Ski the Whole Mountain is fun reading. It's all about the same movement patterns in PMTS in other's words. Helps in the understanding. It also helps puts people's comments bashing this style of skiing in perspective. (I mean, just look at the skiers that ski this way!)

(nolo - do we get nike's with our roll of quarters?)
post #116 of 125
John, Who is the former national demo team member named Bruce? I can't recall anyone named Bruce.
post #117 of 125

I PM'd you

I don't like putting full names of people that don't post or participate here.

I was just pointing out that rather than assume the people skiing with HH are cultists, there are a lot of sane people that do this because they have personally had great results. Many of these are very accomplished skiers with broad PSIA backgrounds including examiners, level III certs, as well as demo team members.

I was at the PMTS instrcutor camp this fall and it was quite an eclectic group. I certainly was the most junior skier there. It was a pretty rarified and experienced group. Probably much like hanging at an Epic event. Nobody seemed like they were in a cult. (of course, does the cultist themselves know this? isn't that the definition of a cult? Somebody help me - save me.)
post #118 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnSki
Personally, I do not judge how good a school is by the number of its adepts. As a matter of fact the best colleges in the country are usually relatively small in number of students (think Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford as opposed to U. of Maryland, U. of Minnesota,
Ohio State, etc..) . Also, the materials Harald Harb makes available are of the highest quality, and head and shoulders above volume 1-2-3 PSIA used to have (now they are just reference material). Stepping Stones is a poor excuse for a book. It were not for the instructors at my local resort, I would not know what a Spiess turn is or I would not know what a javelin turn is meant for.

Simplifying a progression is an enormous step forward if it works. We strive for it in all paths of life be it math, engineering, or even manufacturing processes. So you are wrong to use "simplified" in a derogative way. You should admire the attempt, at least. Semplification is key to progress.
Unless you are against progress, of course, but then you should say so.

I wish somebody explained to me what wedge hops are really good for, for example. I know that in the RM division they barely browse through them, but in the Central division you could fail your level II if you cannot perform them properly. Is this what we should think of as the opposite of Mr. Harb's "semplified" ?

I am a PSIA, but we are not perfect as a group and anybody who makes us think more to improve is welcome in my world, be it Harald Harb, Mickey Mouse or Spyder Man.
My only point about the large number of PSIA instructors is that it makes it difficult to communicate with all of them effectively. Almost all of my training has been with PSIA Educational Staff (Examiners, DCLs, Demo Team members-I'm the best coached skier in North America), and they have a more complete understanding of skiing and teaching than anything I read in the PMTS stuff. The problem is that the other 20,000 or so members don't always get the message.
Simplified is a good thing, but not if you simplify around the wrong idea. The PMTS wrong idea is the emphasis on movements, as opposed to feeling. The movements required for almost any sport (except golf), even at very high levels of competition, are easy and intuitive. The challenge of skiing is to maintain dynamic balance, and some skiers never learn to identify the feeling of being in balance. If you don't establish balance first, nothing else matters.
I've skied with PSIA staff who use all those PMTS drills, but that's only part of what they use. That phantom edge stuff is helpful, and if it makes the casual skier happy to finally get to parallel, I'm all for it. It's just not high level skiing, and PMTS cannot explain what you need to do to ski at the highest levels.
I'm not sure what "wedge hops" are, but any kind of hopping is really difficult for anyone with poor balance. We use a drill called "The Crab,"
which is done in a wedge but it doesn't include a hop. You ski a wide wedge straight down the fall line, then alternately pressure one ski then the other to engage the edge. It shows the coach that you can engage edges cleanly,with no rotation.
Nobody uses javelin turns anymore, and Americans are all too fat to do Speiss turns. With the new skis, you just don't need to move into all those extreme positions or use all that much effort to ski effectively anymore.

John
post #119 of 125
Guys, cut out the snide remarks!

....Ott
post #120 of 125

Lol

You see the thing with SCSA is he takes everything from everyone about skiing but he sometimes forgets who told him what!

I seem to recall a hazy day thrashing around in the back bowls with SCSA and a coupla little demos on how & why to integrate the phantom move with the extension move. I told him ... forget the system already, just bloody do it mate!

Go SCSA mate extend, retract, extend, retract.

P.S. An Austrian taught me .....

LOL
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