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Who on the WC skis most like a PMTS-er?

post #1 of 35
Thread Starter 
Which WC racers best exemplify the PMTS-Harb style of skiing?

Caveat-yes I know other countries have other methods and few, if any, WC skiers have received PMTS instruction, but I'm curious as to who skis the PMTS way? Take Grugger, Walchhofer, and Strobl, the current Bormio podium, for example- which, if any, of these fine Austrians best exemplifies the PMTS standards? If it's none of them, let me know any other current world cupper to watch.

If the answer is, well they could all use some work, let me know that too!

I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I know that Mr. Harb has worked with WC skiers.

If you say well you can't compare recreational skiing to WC racing, spare me. If you're not into getting your skills to WC level (not that you ever will, just that's you're ultimate goal) you have failed to grasp the essence.

So who should have a PMTS sticker on their helmet in this year's circuit?
post #2 of 35

Current WC Harbians

T. Grandi, the Canadian ace had footage used for demonstration purposes on the Expert 1 video. He recently beat the Bodeman.
post #3 of 35
**** *****, a/k/a SCSA
post #4 of 35
post #5 of 35
A bit off-topic:
I had an email discussion over the text and the issue with Lito about two years ago.
For me a good language training but otherwise a waste of time :.
post #6 of 35
Thread Starter 
Compare the picture of Mr. Harb on the page Ryan links above to this picture of Bode Miller:

http://www.ski-and-ski.com/work/Gall...erKitz02SL.jpg

Is Bode demonstrating good PTMS technique? I'm sincerely curious.
post #7 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by TiehackBurger
Compare the picture of Mr. Harb on the page Ryan links above to this picture of Bode Miller:

http://www.ski-and-ski.com/work/Gall...erKitz02SL.jpg

Is Bode demonstrating good PTMS technique? I'm sincerely curious.
I can't answer your question, but I LOVE that picture. Check out how much he has bent that ski!?: It's bent so far that the first 4 inches of the running surface aren't even touching the snow!
post #8 of 35
i don't know either but those tracks he's about to lay around that gate sure seem to be well inside those of a few other skiers down that course.
post #9 of 35
Hijack!

Stance width is a funny thing. IMO, the "proper" stance width should be what's comfortable for the individual and what's functional. Who here skis with their feet exactly the same distance apart all the time? No me. Why? Because I'm smart enough to know that different conditions call for different widths and I'm versatile enough to make the changes. The whole "wide stance" that Lito refers to in the article was a specific response to folks coming up to us and saying "I want to ski with my feet close together..." That's equally non-functional. Lito argues the ability to switch weight from ski to ski is enhanced with a close stance. This is true when the hips are almost directly over the feet. But look at the picture of Bodie. His hips are so far inside the turn, that he's going to have to make a large movement to switch his weight and pressure to the other ski anyway. Look at a variety of WC images and observe what these skiers are doing. There's a variety of stance widths there. Is any ONE right ?

http://www.ski-and-ski.com/work/Gallery/GalleryTop.htm

I guess my point is that it's more efficient to manage the pressure forces on you legs by extending and retracting the legs and not moving the hips from side to side. Now you have to move the hips over feet or the legs under the hips to redirect a majority of your weight/pressure to the new outside ski. This happens in every turn. But my primary mode of managing pressure on my skis (through the belly of the turn) isn't moving my hips, it's flexing and extending my legs.

But pressure is only part of the story. We've got to balance on our skis too. This can also have major effects on stance width. Our inside leg is major in supporting us in wide range of skiing situations. In other's it's really not needed at all. (for example http://www.ski-and-ski.com/work/Gall...Schifferer.htm ) In those cases, who cares how wide your stance is ??

L
post #10 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
I can't answer your question, but I LOVE that picture. Check out how much he has bent that ski!?: It's bent so far that the first 4 inches of the running surface aren't even touching the snow!
Since he looks very balnced on his outside ski, I would submit that ski hit a rut or something you can't see in the photo and is rebounding from it. In order to bend the tip of that ski that much, he would need to be a lot more forward and applying much more forward pressure to the tip of that ski. Particuraly since I bleiev it is a Fischer WC slalom, which I have skied on and they are extremely stiff.
post #11 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by lshull
Hijack!

Stance width is a funny thing. IMO, the "proper" stance width should be what's comfortable for the individual and what's functional. Who here skis with their feet exactly the same distance apart all the time? No me. Why? Because I'm smart enough to know that different conditions call for different widths and I'm versatile enough to make the changes. The whole "wide stance" that Lito refers to in the article was a specific response to folks coming up to us and saying "I want to ski with my feet close together..." That's equally non-functional. Lito argues the ability to switch weight from ski to ski is enhanced with a close stance. This is true when the hips are almost directly over the feet. But look at the picture of Bodie. His hips are so far inside the turn, that he's going to have to make a large movement to switch his weight and pressure to the other ski anyway. Look at a variety of WC images and observe what these skiers are doing. There's a variety of stance widths there. Is any ONE right ?

http://www.ski-and-ski.com/work/Gallery/GalleryTop.htm

I guess my point is that it's more efficient to manage the pressure forces on you legs by extending and retracting the legs and not moving the hips from side to side. Now you have to move the hips over feet or the legs under the hips to redirect a majority of your weight/pressure to the new outside ski. This happens in every turn. But my primary mode of managing pressure on my skis (through the belly of the turn) isn't moving my hips, it's flexing and extending my legs.

But pressure is only part of the story. We've got to balance on our skis too. This can also have major effects on stance width. Our inside leg is major in supporting us in wide range of skiing situations. In other's it's really not needed at all. (for example http://www.ski-and-ski.com/work/Gall...Schifferer.htm ) In those cases, who cares how wide your stance is ??

L
Great Gallery!
post #12 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Great Gallery!
Indeed! You can even see a general shift to a wider stance over the years that those pictures were taken, it seems to me...
post #13 of 35
To answer the original question, all of them... and none of them. A pure PMTS skier (or whatever method) as defined by published texts would be nowhere near World Cup level. At that level they are into the athlete innovation stage, and do whatever it takes to be fast. They have a LOT of strength and balance, and use every bit of it in a race. Skidding and carving, wide and narrow... WHATEVER it takes. They all demonstrate certain concepts covered in PMTS (and other sources), although they are blended to fit the athlete. Watch them for technique if you want, but realize they aren't doing a demonstration- they're racing.

For pure form, I like watching the women World Cup racers. Ouch, can't wait for the comments on that one. Michael von Grünigen was a personal favorite among the men until his retirement. Erik Schlopy and Jimmy Cochran are current favorites, although they don't approach the level of von Grünigen when it comes to making every course look smooth and effortless. There's a reason he dominated GS.
post #14 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaska Mike
To answer the original question, all of them... and none of them. A pure PMTS skier (or whatever method) as defined by published texts would be nowhere near World Cup level. At that level they are into the athlete innovation stage, and do whatever it takes to be fast. They have a LOT of strength and balance, and use every bit of it in a race. Skidding and carving, wide and narrow... WHATEVER it takes. They all demonstrate certain concepts covered in PMTS (and other sources), although they are blended to fit the athlete. Watch them for technique if you want, but realize they aren't doing a demonstration- they're racing.

For pure form, I like watching the women World Cup racers. Ouch, can't wait for the comments on that one. Michael von Grünigen was a personal favorite among the men until his retirement. Erik Schlopy and Jimmy Cochran are current favorites, although they don't approach the level of von Grünigen when it comes to making every course look smooth and effortless. There's a reason he dominated GS.
I think Mike just inadvertently answered the question. I don't think a TRUE PMTS skier would ever "intentionally" skid. (would they?) Therefore, I don't think anybody on the WC skis like a PMTS skier (100% of the time).


In my mind the american teaching system teaches versatility (not that PMTS doesn't they just limit options (rotary)), which is what World cup racers demonstrate.....
post #15 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Since he looks very balnced on his outside ski, I would submit that ski hit a rut or something you can't see in the photo and is rebounding from it. In order to bend the tip of that ski that much, he would need to be a lot more forward and applying much more forward pressure to the tip of that ski. Particuraly since I bleiev it is a Fischer WC slalom, which I have skied on and they are extremely stiff.
Atomicman,

I would suggest that because he is so well balance on the outside ski, that he has NOT hit a rut or something. Look as the surface conditions. That snow is smoooooth. And yes, he is that far forward. You don't need to be pitching at the waist to lever a ski. Look at how hard he is driving his right knee down toward the right ski tip. Using the boot as a lever means that you can pressure the front of the ski by pressuring downward toward the tip, not leaning forward (I know you know this). This is how Bode wins races. He skis a much straighter line to the gate and cranks a much tighter turn. Of course, this is also skiing on the ragged edge of control, which is why Bode finishes less often than we would like.
post #16 of 35
http://www.ski-and-ski.com/work/Gall...tilaPC03gs.htm

This looks like how I normally ski.
post #17 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyxjl
http://www.ski-and-ski.com/work/Gall...tilaPC03gs.htm

This looks like how I normally ski.
Work on getting outside the gate
post #18 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaska Mike
WHATEVER it takes
That's the answer I was looking for, Alaska Mike. Nobody on the WC is demonstrating any technique, except APA (attempted podium acquisition).

And that's what I meant by saying if you're not going for WC skills in your own skiing, you have failed to grasp the essence.

WHATEVER it takes!
post #19 of 35
now, is that the "phantom" Whatever It Takes, or the pizza-to-fries version?
post #20 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaska Mike
To answer the original question, all of them... and none of them. A pure PMTS skier (or whatever method) as defined by published texts would be nowhere near World Cup level. At that level they are into the athlete innovation stage, and do whatever it takes to be fast. They have a LOT of strength and balance, and use every bit of it in a race. Skidding and carving, wide and narrow... WHATEVER it takes. They all demonstrate certain concepts covered in PMTS (and other sources), although they are blended to fit the athlete. Watch them for technique if you want, but realize they aren't doing a demonstration- they're racing.

For pure form, I like watching the women World Cup racers. Ouch, can't wait for the comments on that one. Michael von Grünigen was a personal favorite among the men until his retirement. Erik Schlopy and Jimmy Cochran are current favorites, although they don't approach the level of von Grünigen when it comes to making every course look smooth and effortless. There's a reason he dominated GS.
Absolutely!!!!! von Gruenigen is probably my all time favorite. Alos he finished every run of every GS he raced for something like 13 years!
post #21 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnH
Atomicman,

I would suggest that because he is so well balance on the outside ski, that he has NOT hit a rut or something. Look as the surface conditions. That snow is smoooooth. And yes, he is that far forward. You don't need to be pitching at the waist to lever a ski. Look at how hard he is driving his right knee down toward the right ski tip. Using the boot as a lever means that you can pressure the front of the ski by pressuring downward toward the tip, not leaning forward (I know you know this). This is how Bode wins races. He skis a much straighter line to the gate and cranks a much tighter turn. Of course, this is also skiing on the ragged edge of control, which is why Bode finishes less often than we would like.
I understand all your saying, but the way this ski is bent is very extreme in one point towrds the tip, I respectfully think something else is going on here not just the pressure he is applying. It would seem the ski would make a rounder arc. Again I've skied on that ski and it is very stiff. It looks like something else is making it so distorted in the very tip. And since all that area is not in contact wiht the snow, I don't think it is helping him carve a tighter arc. His knee is pressuring his boot but it does not look like to the extent that would creat that kind of distortion in the ski tip!
post #22 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by TiehackBurger
That's the answer I was looking for, Alaska Mike. Nobody on the WC is demonstrating any technique, except APA (attempted podium acquisition).

And that's what I meant by saying if you're not going for WC skills in your own skiing, you have failed to grasp the essence.

WHATEVER it takes!
I would say they're applying years of practicing technical skills in a uniquely tactical way. To say they didn't spend the majority of their years in programs doing drills similar to those in PMTS (and others) would be completely incorrect. The level where "Athlete Innovation" is effective only can be attained by providing a proper foundation.

I started out trying to ski like a World Cup racer, but without the foundation my understanding of what I was seeing and my ability to translate that into action. I ski faster by foscusing on fundamentals than focusing on the finer points. I am still very much at the technical skill aquisition level, with some technical training. I could have saved a lot of time and money if I had've realized this sooner.
post #23 of 35
Thread Starter 
Yes-You shouldn't attempt to paint like Jackson Pollock until you can draw a decent horse.

My point is that's it ridiculous to argue over how to hold the pencil.
post #24 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
I understand all your saying, but the way this ski is bent is very extreme in one point towrds the tip, I respectfully think something else is going on here not just the pressure he is applying.
It kinda looks like there is a slight rise right before the gate. Wouldn't this cause the ski to compress as it went into the trough and the camera is basically capturing the ski before it rebounded back? I don't know much about the forces involved in WC skiing, but I agree that the ski tip does look odd.

I am amazed how well the edges are defined in those action photos. That is some really nice camera work.
post #25 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by lshull
I think Mike just inadvertently answered the question. I don't think a TRUE PMTS skier would ever "intentionally" skid. (would they?) Therefore, I don't think anybody on the WC skis like a PMTS skier (100% of the time).


In my mind the american teaching system teaches versatility (not that PMTS doesn't they just limit options (rotary)), which is what World cup racers demonstrate.....
Tiehackburger, Ishull very accurately answered your question with his above comment.

Harb condemns in absolute any rotary turning (pivoting, steering), so any skiing that contains such rotary elements can't be classified as PMTS grade skiing. All WC racers pervasively employ these rotary skills so none of them would pass the PMTS test.
post #26 of 35
I just took the Harb Blue/Dark Blue Camp at Copper. We were told that rotary is a secondary movement that occurs as a result of the skis turning in relation to the rest of the body. What I took away from that was you want to turn by edging the skis. Rotary is a byproduct, the training is designed to get you to a pure carve without skidding. It was a school to teach you to carve. I picked up some very good pointers to incorporate into my skiing and I watched some very pretty skiing.

Now as far a World Cup, as said before, you do anything to get you on the podium. If someone figured out that skiing backwards took 3 seconds off your run in less than a year everyone on the circuit would be skiing backwards. I remember the 1968 Olympics when the Fosbury Flop was introduced to the high jump. Everybody laughed and thought it was riduculous. But, it didn't take long before everyone was jumping over the bar "backwards." That is what world class competition is all about. The sport gets improved by the guys pushing the envelope and finding new and improved ways to get down the hill. Style don't matter, speed and consistancy does. What works will then be incorporated into equipment and teaching for the masses.
post #27 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Square
Now as far a World Cup, as said before, you do anything to get you on the podium.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-Square

Style don't matter, speed and consistancy does. What works will then be incorporated into equipment and teaching for the masses.


The rotary employed by WC racers is not typically spontaneous or haphazard. It's normally a precise, controlled and highly refined technical/tactical application.

To isolate carving and strive to refine clean arc to arc edge engagements, as PMTS does, is fine. All programs should refine a student’s ability initiate a carved turn with no preliminary steering of pivoting. However, to go beyond that and promote the idea that those preliminary rotary movements are inherently bad and do not exist in upper level skiing is indefensibly misleading.

It's so idiotically wrong it's not even a debatable topic. You do so at your own peril. The longer you attempt to defend this flawed philosophy the longer a deeper understanding of the sport will evade you. It's the same fate destine to all PMTS desciples who are unable to break free of its hypnotic power.
post #28 of 35

Hi di hi

This is probably the most ridiculous thread ever on Epicski.

2 to 3 years ago on Epicski any mention of rotary was a sin. It was all carve em, carve em, look at my new 156cm skis.

Fook me 97% of ski instructors of any divine following cannot cut a decent turn all mountain.

Why the hell are you people so devoid of the inner skier that the old PMTS gets such a lashing all the time?

PMTS actually brings people to skiing and promotes excellence and continual learning. That’s got to be as least as good a philosophy as "who tips the most gets to step the right stones" is for ski learning. For a country that runs on "if it costs the most it must be good" PMTS is a perfectly positioned marketing strategy.

Skiing is a box of chocolates ......
post #29 of 35
haha he is a scared weird muppet...
post #30 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Man from Oz
This is probably the most ridiculous thread ever on Epicski.

2 to 3 years ago on Epicski any mention of rotary was a sin. It was all carve em, carve em, look at my new 156cm skis.

Fook me 97% of ski instructors of any divine following cannot cut a decent turn all mountain.

Why the hell are you people so devoid of the inner skier that the old PMTS gets such a lashing all the time?

PMTS actually brings people to skiing and promotes excellence and continual learning. That’s got to be as least as good a philosophy as "who tips the most gets to step the right stones" is for ski learning. For a country that runs on "if it costs the most it must be good" PMTS is a perfectly positioned marketing strategy.

Skiing is a box of chocolates ......
This is easily the best post I've ever read in a PMTS thread, and the Bush bit is the clincher.
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