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post #91 of 212

Rusty

Rusty - I think Jay pointed out the standards are different. Most on Real skiers do not believe you would pass the PMTS green cert. But, then again, you don't want to - so everyone is happy.

Yeah - we don't want to ski like Jay, Arcmeister, Eski, Harald or Diana, Mel Brown, etc.

Rusty - your looking at a different group of PMTS skiers than I am.
post #92 of 212
you are "cracking up" at us? come on. jeezus, you are like a Moral Majority "Christian" in your blind fervor for PMTS. your stupid hierarchy and your need to feel superior are nauseating. my how the insecurity shines on you!

BTW, "forget the market, lets do what's best for skiers" is COMMUNISM?

who the fork is the market, nimrod?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason
besides the hijack into communism vs capitalism - forget the market, lets do what's best for skiers (communism)

Rusty's, Mikewil's, etc's comments about why doesn't HH do this or that.

I'm cracking up. Epic gets so entertaining some times. I know I've helped that at times. (97 percent and all that)

When I found out Harald was doing some video analysis and coaching with some with the WC team at copper a few weeks back and gave them a talk on skiing biomechanics one of the evenings and saw that the WC skiers and coaches all know him I asked him the same question. Why doesn't he get back into the WC rat race.

hint: (Harald actually likes what he's doing more than what you guys think he should be doing as a measure of his success) (or to put it another way - he likes having 3000 loyal customers that appreciate what he and his organization has done for him) (and that customer base is rapidly growing and does not include the book and video customer base - that's the bootfitting/camp/and coaching base)

I always enjoy browsing Epic before a PMTS camp. It give lots of humor to the evening discussions. This will be even more fun than usual as this camp has one of the top dogs of PSIA coaching. These people always have very interesting perspectives that tend to be totally different then some of the PSIA folks over here. And since they are higher in PSIA than the folks posting here, it just makes it even more humorous.

Sorry for helping to Hijack - I'm off to get brainwashed some more by both top PSIA folks and top PMTS folks. Good thing PSIA is a big tent or that could never happen. I can feel the love
post #93 of 212
Thread Starter 

A problem...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
man what a poor misguided soul you are. I know about business, all aspects of it, from high finance at AIG to starting my own business. I know how and when to vote with my wallet.
gonzo, you just really need to get over your arrogance. I'm trying to understand your position and all you come back with are silly, immature comments. Quit acting like you've been sent to your room--perhaps you should be--and bragging about your "high finance" and abilities and show some thought (and sentence structure) in your responses. Or just shut up and build your economic utopia. No, wait, that darn old unfair capitalistic world just won't lend you the money, will it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
my major point is that SOME THINGS transcend monetary profit. this point, and the human problems with corruption and greed, are the reasons why capitalism and present business laws are problematic and, curiously, also why skiing has taken a turn toward real estate and away from the skier's experience.
Sorry to burst your Keynesian bubble, gonzo, but capitalism has not hurt skiing. Prehaps those who pay money to go skiing aren't receiving the value they expect and they are choosing other activities or vacation destinations. That's a problem with ski operators' business strategy--not capitalism. And capitalism will fix it in the form of others who care to serve the demand will succeed.

And some things do transcend monetary profit. But those are private to me. And I hope they remain private to you. In other words, don't wear your politics or social order dreams on your sleeve.

It appears that you would like to see some magic sort of skiing Nirvana whereby it is provided for low lift ticket prices, low crowds and all the things all skiers would like to see. Too bad. That can only happen with either the proper balance of supply and demand -or- by subsidies. Subsidies means others are having to pay for your fun. Sort of like your parents buying your lift tickets...and I'm sure (I hope!) you're past that. You don't want to retreat into childhood, do you? I don't care to have others pay my way just because I just think it's the best thing to do for my view of the world. Perhaps you do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
in a system where a corporation or landowner's only obligation is to profit and nothing else (save maybe avoiding overt illegality), there are no long-term values necessary. profit in the near term becomes more and more desirable. long-term effects become negligible, bothersome only to those who happen to suffer the inconvenience of a conscience.
Ah, the favorite argument of those who would love to make decisions about other people's money and how it is used. It's a bankrupt system, gonzo. It has died all over the world--with the last bastion being Cuba. Go there. Talk conscience with Castro and others who take for their own selfish political order. Go and see how someone so dedicated to "what is right" has left what was a thriving nation illiterate and poor.

And you are really confused in your perceptions of balancing long-term vs. short-term profit. I can understand how you might be convinced that short-term is most desirable--that is how children think. They want it now.

The rest of us grow up and save for the future. And can defer gratification. As I wrote in an earlier post, it's a good thing that adults are making our monetary policy (again) and running our businesses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
I pity you, pussycat. your life is shallow. your view is shallower yet, and narrower than it is shallow.
This may be the most pathetic statement of complete ignorant arrogance I have read in this otherwise decent forum.

You cannot make a coherent argument. You zig-zag around claiming to know finance and business-building but continue to criticize those who have a profit motive. Look, if you started a business without profit as a motive--great! But get off your elitist soapbox and quit criticizing those who strive to make a profit. Profit seekers make the economic engine run. And profit-seekers create wealth for others while they create wealth for themselves. On the other hand, those who anguish over "evil" profit and choose to exist in a commune-like existance are the most selfish of all: They build only what they need and never create the wonderful by-product of wealth creation for others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
your market system is the cause of ski areas ignoring skiers for the larger profit of vacation/investment house buyers. again, the individual skiers obviously had no power in the equation, or areas would never have moved to real estate development rather than SKIER development.
Again, not so. Spelled out above.

And I've invited you to tell us all how you would address SKIER development but you have not. All you can do is complain about me and whine about mean old resorts and tell us where you choose to ski. All about you, huh?

Here's your chance again (because I'm convinced you have a brain and can think): Tell us how to address SKIER development to supplant real estate development.

By your choices, gonzo, you are opening the door to real estate development at all the vacation destinations. Which would lead to their demise. Which would further resuce the number of skiers. Which would put people out of work from resorts to travel services to ski equipment makers. And you have the nerve to talk to me about conscience? Really--get over yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
I already do my part by not skiing at "resorts" or the like. I support small ski areas and try to do 95% of my skiing at them. voting with my wallet, as you suggest. I also support independent contractors rather than established statewide, national or international businesses. in fact, most every dollar I spend is one spent under my own conscience's strict guidelines.
That's fine. Ski wherever you want to ski. Big deal. The facts remain that most skiers tend to go to resorts because that's the easiest access for them. Not everyone who enjoys skiing is fortunate to live near a mountain.

But we can all see that you would like to see those close and put all those people out of work. That'd show 'em, huh? Then you could lead your selfish little life at your local mountain. Until, of course, the prices rise beyond your sense of "fairness."

I guess that'd be Ok with you -- you'd just have more to rant about.

Buy from whomever you want to. But I will buy from my chosen sources. Your criteria is yours, I will use mine. But that does not make your choices better than mine. Or anyone else's.

You really need to get over your "gonzo is right, everyone else is stupid" act. It is silly and childish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
how does your "economic model" handle my perspective? you've already erred on about 5 salient facts about me. how many more errors are inherent in your economic model of life?
It handles it just fine. You do what you want, economically, and I will make my choices. Fortunately, we live in a system--unlike Cuba--where you cannot keep me from making the choices that are best for me. Thanks goodness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
as to the "problem" with skier numbers, there's no "problem." it's a fiction, a canard created to demonstrate that real estate is a "smarter" expenditure. again, pointing out that the individual skier is powerless. bah.
Read the stats on skier visits and population and you will understand. Oh, wait, the resorts are making it all up so they can build condos.

Is the world flat, too, gonzo? These really are pathetically silly comments you are making. And just dead wrong. Read the numbers, do the research, or just drop it.

Let's see...you don't believe the skier statistics compiled by the industry...all economics is bogus and proffered by plutocrats...and you pity...ME?! Hey, why concern yourself with reality when you can change it to suit your juvunile needs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
I will continue to ski no matter what happens to the "industry" of ski "resorts". small ski areas like the ones I frequent will remain operative, and perhaps even gain in skiers, when your apogee "resorts" are imploding from their own ignorance of the very reason they existed in the first place.
That's cool. If they implode, then others will take their place. If skier demand is there, the resorts will be open to serve the demand. If not, there will, perhaps, be hunting or golfing or whatever on that land.

One thing is clear: If skier demand dwindles to a point where there is oversupply, resorts and mountains will close. The prices will drop for a period...and then sharply rise in the face of losing economy of scale.

Set aside your disdain for business and economics for a minute and try to understand production processes and you will quickly see how skis will skyrocket in price when the market shrinks to a tiny percentage of what it once was. Ski production is mostly fixed costs, gonzo. If Volkl can make and sell 200,000 pair for, say, $300 per pair, their per pair costs will quadruple if the market falls to 50,000 pair. You'll have a lot to rant about when your skis increase in price five-fold. Or are no longer made at all.

You are welcome to ignore facts and economic history all you want to, gonzo. But market shifts have happened, and will continue to happen, in other and similar industries. Of course, with your contempt of economics, you cannot be bothered with understanding facts and how theory is applied to predict market events.

Tell the truth: It's all over your head, right?

That's Ok. Call Bush an idiot and keep getting your news and analysis from The Comedy Channel. It's cartoons for adults. Or, well, people of adult age.
post #94 of 212
If you look at PMTS as a "product" to be sold to the level 1 or 2 skier, it presents a skiing model that they can aspire to. It also presents a coherent linear path to that model. This certainly makes sense to a lower level skier who aspires to improvement.
The one thing a lower level skier needs to improve is to learn to start a turn by "tipping over" down the hill. This is not something they are comfortable with. The most "controlled" way to "fall downhill" is in a narrow stance(balance your pole on the palm of your hand, very easy to do) This certainly allows comfortable progress towards PMTS's skiing model.
To suggest that the PMTS skiing model is the "epitome" of the sport, however, leaves a lot to be desired. I would suggest that modern ski technique has evolved far beyond. Harald has, what appears to be, a reasonable "product" as far as it goes. The PSIA "Stepping Stones" seems to be a good way for a skier who has "topped out" on PMTS to move up the ladder to the "highest rung".(Mind you, both PSIA and PMTS are merely "followers" of ski technique. They identify it, not create it. As do all coaches and technicians.) PSIA's "product" seems to be aimed at the instructor/higher level skier(probably not the best target for growth of the sport)
A few thoughts:
Aldo Radamus(architect of the current USST's young stars) talked of "grouping"(narrow stance but with vertical separation) 20 years ago.(like cornering on a bike with one pedal up and one down)
What my local Harb "disciples" call "rotary" is what I call "steering". While rotary encompasses steering, there is much more than that to it.
My first exposure to Harald was through a series of "mini lessons" on Prime Star TV where he was teaching a one footed use(lifting and carrying the inside ski) of shaped skis. My own experience was that they allowed two footed carving and that was the big selling point as far as I could see.(why would you want to use those outdated techniques with these new, wonderful toys?)
When Tommy Moe was interviewed after his Olympic gold he was asked "what were you thinking?" His reply: "Standing on my downhill ski and keeping my hands forward".
I've been hanging around this coaching thing for 30 years or more and count Aldo, Ellen Post-Foster, Olle Larson and Arcmeister, among others, as my friends. I'd never heard of Harald until those TV spots and some articles in Ski Magazine. Has Robin,a Canadian racer and ski instructor, had any comments?
I'm looking forward to meeting and skiing with Harald at Tyrol in a couple weeks. It's always best to get your info "straight from the horse's mouth". I intend to be open minded and non confrontational. I've always found there was something to be learned, even if one doesn't always agree with someone.(there isn't much that I don't agree with Harald on, it's more the dogmatic approach)
post #95 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkracer
To come back to the original questions I can offer some totaly unbiassed European perspective.
I don´t care about PSIA vs. PMTS/HSS. For me, they are both two teaching systems in a distant world.
I own and have read HH´s Anyone I and II and I own and have seen the video to the first one. I have met Harald once in Europe.

As to Q 2.
I discussed his PMTS once with one of the top managers at Head, Austria. It was shortly after HH visited the factory and HQs and left his video there.
It´s like Jekyll and Hyde, two personalities, we concluded.
If you listen to him you would hire him as a head coach in any country in the Alps.
When you see his narrow stance and brushed carve performed in the video, you don´t know what to think and say.

It may be possible to pursuade the Americans that the Worldcuppers ski with their legs together.
You would make an idiot of yourself trying this in Europe where, at least in most of the important countries, alpine racing and its stars are part of ski culture.
When I first discovered PMTS via internet I thought it could be a good thing to start here: everything American was extremely popular here after the communist era had collapsed and a new American teaching system could be a hit.
But, when I got the book and SAW the first few pictures my hopes collapsed, too. No way, no chance. Impossible.
PMTS as it is characterized in the sources mentioned might be a good strategy for some motivated but plateaued intermediates who, as HH writes, "want to look elegant and ski with style" (Anyone II, p. 41).

Much has already been said.
It seems to me that PMTS has acquired some sectarian symptoms:
- there´s the Big Guru who is the ideologist, the Main Practitioner, the Judge (what´s good and what´s not)
- there´s no "inner opposition", no opinion differences, no discussion resulting in the final version of the teaching - just the teaching bible and the Guru
- there are some keen disciples parroting His Master´s Voice
-the closed group acts like it was endangered by the sorrounding world and it reacts in a rather hostile way
OTOH, there are some very valuable ideas in PMTS nad HH´s know-how definitely is extremely respectful

One more take. It has been said PMTS is a big help for skiers with some handicaps, such as hip replacement.
It´s neither PMTS/HSS nor HH. It´s the way you ski using the benefits of shaped skis regardless of how you call the system.
99.5% skiers in Europe never heard about PMTS or HH but some of us can ski the modern way using much of what PMTS advocates.
It´s the principles and the skills, not the well-formulated labels.
Which might be a good point for HH.
The package called PMTS sounds good and its marketing seems to be successful. Regardless of whether PMTS is growing or not, it´s there, it´s alive and it´s more or less prosperous.
I don´t envy HH but I would be happy to have such a good business running.
I would not waste the typing next time... I tried to tell them there was a whole WORLD out there & the only person ever reads it is Rick(Fastman).... they seem to have blinkers & think it is PSIA or PMTS - nothing else...

I have also pointed out those damn austrians seem to still persist in tecahing the dreaded snowplough & stemchristie(at least as far as I can tell from quick chats to their instructors) & FOR SURE they still teach braquage(they have tried to teach me) & we all know they can't ski....
post #96 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason
Rusty - I think Jay pointed out the standards are different. Most on Real skiers do not believe you would pass the PMTS green cert. But, then again, you don't want to - so everyone is happy.

Yeah - we don't want to ski like Jay, Arcmeister, Eski, Harald or Diana, Mel Brown, etc.

Rusty - your looking at a different group of PMTS skiers than I am.
You are not getting it John. I could sit here and say: "damn, you don't want to ski like Bob Barnes?".

The fact is that Arcmeister (I know him since he coached me through 2 ESA events) is a very open minded person. He picks the best ideas from PSIA and PMTS (and anyhing else that may be useful) and applies it all to his, and his students' advantage.

I am assuming that you will do the same. Start by realizing that using rotary, when intended, is not an evil thing.
post #97 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason
bRusty's, Mikewil's, etc's comments about why doesn't HH do this or that.
Hey John,

I see you have picked up one of Harld's traits. Ignore questions that will expose you.

The question remains-how many ski schools have looked at at Harld's product and adopted, then dropped it or never saw it as a viable product and chose not to embrace it.

Your silence spoke volumes-just like when I asked Harld on his site how many world cup podium racers last season embraced PMTS methodology. Of course he never answered because it was 0.

Have you learned to tip your skis yet?
post #98 of 212
John,

You have always been reasonable. I doubt everyone is happy. I bet the folks at epicski would love to see HH have a chance to fail me (PSIA level III) at the lowest level of PMTS certification.

You are correct. There is no lure for me in Dumont.
post #99 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by disski
I would not waste the typing next time... I tried to tell them there was a whole WORLD out there & the only person ever reads it is Rick(Fastman).... they seem to have blinkers & think it is PSIA or PMTS - nothing else...

I have also pointed out those damn austrians seem to still persist in tecahing the dreaded snowplough & stemchristie(at least as far as I can tell from quick chats to their instructors) & FOR SURE they still teach braquage(they have tried to teach me) & we all know they can't ski....
Disski,

I have always embraced your world view. I have honestly always found it amazing that HH does not take on other professional ski instruction organizations.
post #100 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarvardTiger
I agree that real estate is the driving profit force in skiing. There is a resort in Pennsylvania that is suffering because when the skiing mountain was donated to the state by the Mellon family, it was with the condition that no condos or lodging could be built on the mountain. The skiing mountain was not open last year and is in receivership. Tough situation. Those who have been trying to keep that resort going--including the employees--would love a little skier growth right about now!
HT,

The resort that you speak of is Laural Mountain. That place has opened and closed more times than the screen door at a Jaurez cat house. Their issues began in the sixties.

The problem? Proximics to Seven Springs and Hidden Valley. The true nail in the coffin for Laural was in the seventies when 7 springs expanded. I think a page has been taken out of the Vail resorts page a la A-Basin when 7 springs has begun managing their neighbor.
post #101 of 212
There is some magic in knowing or having met the Guru or high priest or president of an entity. As a newspaper man I have seen devout democrats instantly converted into republicans simply by the republican president of th USA walking into a restaurant while on the stump and walking over, shaking hands and having a few words with them. As a photographer , I would take a picture and a follow up interview by the reporter would bear it out that now they can say that the prez talked to them personally.

I first noticed it with SCSA, the pride that he could at anytime email or phone HH who would indulge him, made him a devout PMTS follower. Now I see it in John Mason who probably knows every word in the books by HH verbatim, he cites page numbers where it is written, and he has met the top gurus of PMTS and that often is more important than what is said in those meetings.

Having a direct pipline to heaven does something to a person. Beware, should HH get fed up with the person in one way or another and access is denied, the wrath is something to behold.

....Ott
post #102 of 212
Thread Starter 

To improve

Lots of interesting conversation, guys!

Is there any way to pull all this together and work towards building a healthy (healthier) skiing industry? If you would indulge me, here are some of my observations--both personally and from others--that may certainly be impacting the shrinking demand for skiing.

Bad experiences in initial ski lessons. The ski school instructor is the face of the resort--most often the single touchpoint between the resort and its clientel. This (and it obviously doesn't happen all the time) underscores a huge disconnect between ski mountain operators and their customers.

Snowboarders. Several skiers I have spoken with have mentioned the antics of snowboarders, and the resorts unwillingness to police their rude or dangerous activities, as the primary reason "they don't care to spend upwards of $200 per day (lift, lodging, food, travel) to have to deal with punks."

Boredom. Trying to read between the lines of those who mention they just got tired of skiing, I sense that they did not feel they were progressing to new challenges. Perhaps this is a real opportunity for instruction?

As best as I can tell, and from my limited research, these are the three main themes that have led to the decline in skiing over the past twelve years.

There's a lot more that can be said about this topic. I've learned a lot reading your posts and the posts on other sites. Too, observing the industry it appears that there are real opportunities for the resort operator who embraces the changes that need to be made (and will be made by the market, regardless) to recapture the thrill and enjoyment of great skiing. Key will be revamping how instruction is delivered to customers. And that revamping itself offers exciting opportunities for those who are willing to set aside personal and institutional egos to move the industry forward.

Your thoughts?

- HT
post #103 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason
Yeah - we don't want to ski like Jay, Arcmeister, Eski, Harald or Diana, Mel Brown, etc.

Rusty - your looking at a different group of PMTS skiers than I am.
John you are right. I am looking at a different group. I'm looking at the green certs and recreational skiers that I see dabbling with PMTS. I have said the following ad nauseum and you as well as many others conveniently seem to neglect what I have said.

Arcmeister, Harald, and Diana are all very good skiers.

Arc is a very good teacher.

I cannot attest to the teaching of HH or Diana.

Let me ask you two simple questions. Did HH, Diana, and Arc begin their skiing in a wedge? Did they begin by "turning" or "rotating" their feet? They seem to be the benchmark in your mind for decent skiing. They seemed to have turned out well.

Turning my attention to those what I have seen. I have steadfastly stated I have no desire to denigrate any individuals skiing. I defy you to find anyplace that I have done so.

You on the other hand raise the notion that with my level III PSIA cert I would not be able to pass the entry level PMTS certification.

PMTS is based upon a notion of pure lateral movements. I know many PMTSers who have NEVER tipped their skis sufficiently on edge to engage them in anything resembling a carved turn. I have also said there are many PSIA level I and II certs, as well as recreational skiers in the same boat.

Now listen carefully. That does not suggest, mean, or infer there are not PMTSers who cannot carve. I will suggest there is more than anecdotal evidence those who can carve learned to do so at the hands of a PSIA cert years ago.
post #104 of 212
Thread Starter 

Yes, yes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
HT,

The resort that you speak of is Laural Mountain. That place has opened and closed more times than the screen door at a Jaurez cat house. Their issues began in the sixties.

The problem? Proximics to Seven Springs and Hidden Valley. The true nail in the coffin for Laural was in the seventies when 7 springs expanded. I think a page has been taken out of the Vail resorts page a la A-Basin when 7 springs has begun managing their neighbor.
You are so right, sir!

I spoke with management of Seven Springs (who, as you point out, are operating Laurel as Laurel Springs this year) about the Laurel problems. It is an interesting case study.

Certainly your observation about nearby competitors is a point well taken. And, as such, often a nearby competitor can do well operating--in this case--what would be a competitor as a complement.

I am told by skiers in the area that Laurel is a great place to ski. There seems to be real demand for the mountain itself. I looked at it specifically because the mountain had no lodging, etc., and I felt it would be easier to gauge demand for actual skiing as opposed to demand for a resort experience.

What I found is that there are a lot of day skiers; but, too, there appears to be a lot of folks who drive in from Pittsburgh and (in particular) the D.C. area and spend the night in motels to ski Laurel. Interesting.

And I appreciate your comments herein, Rusty Guy. Thanks for sharing your insights!

P.S. Anyone interested in buying a ski resort? I know of one for sale...assets for pennies on the dollar!
post #105 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarvardTiger
Lots of interesting conversation, guys!

Is there any way to pull all this together and work towards building a healthy (healthier) skiing industry? If you would indulge me, here are some of my observations--both personally and from others--that may certainly be impacting the shrinking demand for skiing.

Bad experiences in initial ski lessons. The ski school instructor is the face of the resort--most often the single touchpoint between the resort and its clientel. This (and it obviously doesn't happen all the time) underscores a huge disconnect between ski mountain operators and their customers.

Snowboarders. Several skiers I have spoken with have mentioned the antics of snowboarders, and the resorts unwillingness to police their rude or dangerous activities, as the primary reason "they don't care to spend upwards of $200 per day (lift, lodging, food, travel) to have to deal with punks."

Boredom. Trying to read between the lines of those who mention they just got tired of skiing, I sense that they did not feel they were progressing to new challenges. Perhaps this is a real opportunity for instruction?

As best as I can tell, and from my limited research, these are the three main themes that have led to the decline in skiing over the past twelve years.

There's a lot more that can be said about this topic. I've learned a lot reading your posts and the posts on other sites. Too, observing the industry it appears that there are real opportunities for the resort operator who embraces the changes that need to be made (and will be made by the market, regardless) to recapture the thrill and enjoyment of great skiing. Key will be revamping how instruction is delivered to customers. And that revamping itself offers exciting opportunities for those who are willing to set aside personal and institutional egos to move the industry forward.

Your thoughts?

- HT
HT,

I'm not certain all your assumptions are correct. I think the vast majority of folks who take a lesson have a great time. Where are we getting these stats?

Snowboarders? The war is long ago over. They are a wonderful group of kids intent upon having a great time. You have raised an interesting point. From my perspective the going trend may well be the park, pipe, and twin tips. Twin tips and big mountain skiing are bringing young people back to twin planks. Give an 18 year old a steep couloir and he may well straightline it backwards.

Harald better figure out a way to convince legions of jibbers to never turn their skis as they spin, twist, turn, huck, slide, etc.

I think one issue is how easy skiing has become due to better technology. The days of 215cm skis, longthongs, leather boots, etc may have been a boon for instruction. It reminds me of two women who came to our ski school desk last year. One said....."my friend needs a ski lesson". I said "OK, how about you joining her?" She replied, "Oh no........I learned how to ski yesterday!"
post #106 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott Gangl
There is some magic in knowing or having met the Guru or high priest or president of an entity. As a newspaper man I have seen devout democrats instantly converted into republicans simply by the republican president of th USA walking into a restaurant while on the stump and walking over, shaking hands and having a few words with them. As a photographer , I would take a picture and a follow up interview by the reporter would bear it out that now they can say that the prez talked to them personally.

I first noticed it with SCSA, the pride that he could at anytime email or phone HH who would indulge him, made him a devout PMTS follower. Now I see it in John Mason who probably knows every word in the books by HH verbatim, he cites page numbers where it is written, and he has met the top gurus of PMTS and that often is more important than what is said in those meetings.

Having a direct pipline to heaven does something to a person. Beware, should HH get fed up with the person in one way or another and access is denied, the wrath is something to behold.

....Ott
Wow. So astute it's profound!! I have to agree with you here, Ott.

Skiing is nothing more than a psychological experiment.

I've had people rank on me for not sticking input into these instruction threads. Reading these makes my head spin round.

I have nothing worthy to say except all this bickering about who's best, who's the rest makes me want to teach myself and back away from the better skiers who......from my perspective at the moment........are a messed up buncha people. PMTS or PSIA....: :

I'm your market also....the intermediate who actually needs your services at this stage in the game. And you're scaring me away.

Tell me.....how are you going to convince me that I need this one or that one? Does it matter? There's a lot of lurkers here reading this, and aside from the Gonzo-Harvard Tiger Economics Sparfest (which was thoroughly entertaining, by the way, but had nothing to do with the topic), I'm thinking I'll just sidle off by myself and find someone who isn't either school of thought to help me progress!
post #107 of 212
Bonni,

Ott has it going on. He is a true sage and lest we forget the big fella can turn em.

Who launched the first attack and who has fed it for years?

Go read what Harald Harb has said about the thousands of honorable folks plying their trade in the ski industry.

You add to this the 97%ers who are in the learning stage that gravitate to this site and state they know more about skiing than PSIA examiners with decades of teaching under their belt.

I don't find their presence or stats to be merely coincidental.

Besides........I'm stuck in Pennsylvania in a hotel room with an eleven year old watching the tube before we go visit relatives for the third day. Thank the good lord for my new Ipod!
post #108 of 212
for all his high-dollar pontificating and pretense at actually rebutting my points, all the pussycat does is re-emphasize his points that "the market" is God and "profit" is God's handmaiden.

let's see... skier visits decline? hmmm. I don't know anyone who was a serious skier who quit. what are you talking about?

the problem with pussycat is he closes his eyes and believes the faith. that's fine if you want to know utopia from a Christian Consumerist perspective. not fine if you want to know why skiing is so expensive, why skiing is an "industry" to some and not a sport/activity, why skiing has "no growth."

the problem, you see, is viewing skiing as if it were only a business.

but pussycat thinks business the highest use of all.

I can't think of a single point I hold in this game of intellectual poker, in which I've been factually wrong. pussycat seems to think he's got a royal flush, but the only "flush" he has is his Harvard crimson face of embarrassment at learning he's built a house of intellectual cards.

the shameful paper tiger arguments in which pussycat accuses me of communism and/or socialism are even more tired. just because I point out some of the flaws of capitalism, pussycat assumes I'm a Castro-sympathizing communist.

oh how the straw man argument suits the pussycat.

"over my head" -- hah. find a subject that goes "over my head", pussycat, and I'll buy you a pair of skis.
post #109 of 212
the best part of all of this is the return of gonzo.

Now if we could just bring back a few of the greats from the past......Robin, Weems,Spag,SCSA
post #110 of 212
HT: One of the thing you absolutely need to remember here is the size of the population these observations come from. In its entirety, Epic is 7000 plus strong. Go back and add up the individual members who have responded to this or any other topic on this board. Less than 40 is usually the case, many will have multiple posts.

You will not get a representative sample of opinion on any subject--- ever---


Bad Experience:

Example: use the search feature; look up Cupolo sports. If you were to assess the integrity of that retail outlet from this forum, you would run the other way as fast as you could. Why? Because somewhere in the neighborhood of maybe a dozen folks have posted thousands of lines expressing how Cupolo failed them. Lets see: 12 divided by how many millions of skiers?

Use your economy of scale model to tell you how you should judge Cupolo's.

Thats just an example folks, don't come out of the woodwork to defend yourselves again!:

Boarders:

Is disciple of the devil really accurate? An analysis taken from just this forum will lead you to that result, (when IMHO, the problem is more in the age group, not whats on your feet.) Why? This is a skiing forum, mainly. Boarders are very much a silent segment of the population here.

Just my additional 2 cents. (Or centavos as the case may be)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarvardTiger
Lots of interesting conversation, guys!

Is there any way to pull all this together and work towards building a healthy (healthier) skiing industry? If you would indulge me, here are some of my observations--both personally and from others--that may certainly be impacting the shrinking demand for skiing.

Bad experiences in initial ski lessons. The ski school instructor is the face of the resort--most often the single touchpoint between the resort and its clientel. This (and it obviously doesn't happen all the time) underscores a huge disconnect between ski mountain operators and their customers.

Snowboarders. Several skiers I have spoken with have mentioned the antics of snowboarders, and the resorts unwillingness to police their rude or dangerous activities, as the primary reason "they don't care to spend upwards of $200 per day (lift, lodging, food, travel) to have to deal with punks."

Boredom. Trying to read between the lines of those who mention they just got tired of skiing, I sense that they did not feel they were progressing to new challenges. Perhaps this is a real opportunity for instruction?

As best as I can tell, and from my limited research, these are the three main themes that have led to the decline in skiing over the past twelve years.

There's a lot more that can be said about this topic. I've learned a lot reading your posts and the posts on other sites. Too, observing the industry it appears that there are real opportunities for the resort operator who embraces the changes that need to be made (and will be made by the market, regardless) to recapture the thrill and enjoyment of great skiing. Key will be revamping how instruction is delivered to customers. And that revamping itself offers exciting opportunities for those who are willing to set aside personal and institutional egos to move the industry forward.

Your thoughts?

- HT
post #111 of 212
HarvardTiger, Where are you getting your statistical information?
post #112 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
It reminds me of two women who came to our ski school desk last year. One said....."my friend needs a ski lesson". I said "OK, how about you joining her?" She replied, "Oh no........I learned how to ski yesterday!"
That's is funny, but also sad, in a funny sort of way. I'd bet many people actually carry this mindset forward, at least until they know enough to know better.

BTW, maybe you'd let us know who the 1st lady's instructor was so we could all get this "learning to ski" thing out of the way.
post #113 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach13
BTW, maybe you'd let us know who the 1st lady's instructor was so we could all get this "learning to ski" thing out of the way.
John Mason
post #114 of 212
wonder if the pussycat cares to share his finely honed perspective with us in this thread:

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=21834
post #115 of 212
Thread Starter 

...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
HT,

I'm not certain all your assumptions are correct. I think the vast majority of folks who take a lesson have a great time. Where are we getting these stats?

Snowboarders? The war is long ago over. They are a wonderful group of kids intent upon having a great time. You have raised an interesting point. From my perspective the going trend may well be the park, pipe, and twin tips. Twin tips and big mountain skiing are bringing young people back to twin planks. Give an 18 year old a steep couloir and he may well straightline it backwards.
My information comes from talking with people who have taken lessons and/or who have quite skiing for whatever reason. Purely unscientific. I have been trying to gather anecdotal information to get a feel for what ski consumers buy or have quit buying.

Clearly, I'm sure that people are satisfied with their lessons. But something is happening when only 1 in 6 never-evers return to ski again. I'm just asking, "Is it the lessons?" or "Is it the expense?" or "Why?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
Harald better figure out a way to convince legions of jibbers to never turn their skis as they spin, twist, turn, huck, slide, etc.
Interesting point!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
I think one issue is how easy skiing has become due to better technology. The days of 215cm skis, longthongs, leather boots, etc may have been a boon for instruction. It reminds me of two women who came to our ski school desk last year. One said....."my friend needs a ski lesson". I said "OK, how about you joining her?" She replied, "Oh no........I learned how to ski yesterday!"
Yep. Paradigm Shift #1 that brought skiing to the masses has happened. Why, then, with easier equipment and better destinations, has skiing declined overall? I think time is ripe for Paradigm Shift #2: A change in how skiers are taught and their on-mountain experiences.

I say on-mountain experiences because that's where there appears to be the biggest disconnect and expectations are not met. There are ways to do all this...it's incredibly interesting to me...and is why I started this thread (entertaining bonni aside...).
post #116 of 212
Well, Here I am again, agreeing with Gonzo.

It would seem that only the wealthy are invited to ski, have always been the chosen ones to ski, and that the ski industry continually perpetuates that ideal.

Hence, Let's Build Condos. Places for the wealthy to stay.
Even smaller hills are building condos on the side of the trails. Does this serve the general skiing public? No.
Does this do Anything to promote skiing? NO.

How many skiers do you think can afford a "second home", one costing probably more than the home they're already in? (Ok, probably all of the Epicski posters but me and Gonzo).

If Jibbers are holding up some of the ski "industry", how many JIBBERS are buying condos?

While the upper crust of skiers find this a wonderful thing, I don't see the value in it for bringing in new skiers. New mountain tenants, sure. I wonder how much of the money for a $200,000 slopeside condo is used for upgrading/maintaining the slopes, lodges, etc, or does it line the pockets of the owners of the hill only?:
post #117 of 212
skiing does not need "growth", moron.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarvardTiger
Lots of interesting conversation, guys!

Is there any way to pull all this together and work towards building a healthy (healthier) skiing industry? If you would indulge me, here are some of my observations--both personally and from others--that may certainly be impacting the shrinking demand for skiing.

Bad experiences in initial ski lessons. The ski school instructor is the face of the resort--most often the single touchpoint between the resort and its clientel. This (and it obviously doesn't happen all the time) underscores a huge disconnect between ski mountain operators and their customers.

Snowboarders. Several skiers I have spoken with have mentioned the antics of snowboarders, and the resorts unwillingness to police their rude or dangerous activities, as the primary reason "they don't care to spend upwards of $200 per day (lift, lodging, food, travel) to have to deal with punks."

Boredom. Trying to read between the lines of those who mention they just got tired of skiing, I sense that they did not feel they were progressing to new challenges. Perhaps this is a real opportunity for instruction?

As best as I can tell, and from my limited research, these are the three main themes that have led to the decline in skiing over the past twelve years.

There's a lot more that can be said about this topic. I've learned a lot reading your posts and the posts on other sites. Too, observing the industry it appears that there are real opportunities for the resort operator who embraces the changes that need to be made (and will be made by the market, regardless) to recapture the thrill and enjoyment of great skiing. Key will be revamping how instruction is delivered to customers. And that revamping itself offers exciting opportunities for those who are willing to set aside personal and institutional egos to move the industry forward.

Your thoughts?

- HT
post #118 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
wonder if the pussycat cares to share his finely honed perspective with us in this thread:

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=21834
Gonz, I doubt he can see that thread, it is in the lounge.
post #119 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Guy
John Mason
I've learned to make sure I'm not drinking anything when I read your posts.
post #120 of 212
hah. ya know how easy it is to see the light when they remove your blinders, Bonni? or when you remove them yourself? interesting how this sport of skiing is, in some folks' eyes, reducible only to dollars and cents.

these same maroons don't even stop to think that skiing has little to do with dollars and cents, and lots to do with the challenge of sliding downhill on two planks in a way that is controllable, enjoyable, and worthy of repetition.

instead, they see only skier $$$.

eedjits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonni
Well, Here I am again, agreeing with Gonzo.

It would seem that only the wealthy are invited to ski, have always been the chosen ones to ski, and that the ski industry continually perpetuates that ideal.

Hence, Let's Build Condos. Places for the wealthy to stay.
Even smaller hills are building condos on the side of the trails. Does this serve the general skiing public? No.
Does this do Anything to promote skiing? NO.

How many skiers do you think can afford a "second home", one costing probably more than the home they're already in? (Ok, probably all of the Epicski posters but me and Gonzo).

If Jibbers are holding up some of the ski "industry", how many JIBBERS are buying condos?

While the upper crust of skiers find this a wonderful thing, I don't see the value in it for bringing in new skiers. New mountain tenants, sure. I wonder how much of the money for a $200,000 slopeside condo is used for upgrading/maintaining the slopes, lodges, etc, or does it line the pockets of the owners of the hill only?:
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