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Is it Worth The Price to Live in Utah? - Page 5

post #121 of 148
Don't bother checking Janesdad, Over all Utah is about 75% LDS. Utah County Provo is about 90% Salt Lake is around 50/50 LDS to un LDS. Park city is about 80% non LDS.
Lets see water recreation close to SLC Less then an hour is the Jordenell, Rockport, Echo, East Canyon reservoirs. a little further out Pinview, Deer Creek and tons of small lakes in the Unita mountains. Not bad for the 2nd driest state in the Nation.
But everybody will be much happier in Colorado. I mean look at all the songs writen about how great Colorado is? Know any about how great Utah is, bet you can't name one.
post #122 of 148
Don't know what to say other than maybe move further west, I hear the Truckee area is really nice.
post #123 of 148
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTKook View Post
Mining. Would've said 45% Roman Catholic myself though.
If so, that percentage is due to the rapidly growing Hispanic population in SLC. Hispanics now dominate some segments of the region, and they're predominantly Catholic.

Go to the lily white suburbs (where we resided), and you're talking LDS. In Cottonwood Heights, 100% of our known neighbors were Of The Church.
post #124 of 148
jeebus, people in Utah universally refer to it as "the church" so arguing over its predominance is sort of silly.

Rhode Island is 64 percent Catholic, but I sort of doubt you can refer to "the church" in casual conversation with anyone anywhere in Rhode Island and have them know exactly what you are talking about.

As of 1990, ootah is 72 percent LDS. As Utah49 pointed out, Utah county is about 90 percent "the church" and more or less closed on Sundays.

Trying to pass the religious aspect of Utah off as not much different than anywhere else to outsiders requires one of three things: residence in PC, dishonesty, or apathy/disinterest.
post #125 of 148
[Trying to pass the religious aspect of Utah off as not much different than anywhere else to outsiders requires one of three things: residence in PC, dishonesty, or apathy/disinterest.[/quote]

I think your a littel off on this. I have lived here for more then 10 years. I would ad one more thing to your list, Tolerance. A littel Tolerance goes a long way to making life here a lot better.
the Catholic Church gets right in there and mixes it up in politics in places like Boston and Chicago. Go to areas of the Bible belt South and the Christian Right is by far more controlling then anything I have ever seen here in Utah by The LDS chruch. Christian Evangelical Churches are far less tolerant of other faiths then members of The LDS Church.
post #126 of 148
Well, OK.

But there ain't no chance in you-know-where that I'm ever going to move to one of those southern locales. Utah is unique because it has the kooky religion and stuff that compels some of us godless coasters to move there. So yeah, there are definitely kookier places, but none that are on a skier's short list of places to go...
post #127 of 148
Any truth to the rumor that a splinter sect of the Church of Steezus Christ of the Unreformed Latter Day Powder Mystics is forming a Little Cottonwood Canyon Stake? I saw some guys up at Alta with shaved heads, 100-mile stares, and 100-mm skis chanting some mantra from Dolores LaChappelle... Then again, it could have just been some local animists...
post #128 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by viking kaj View Post
Mormons... I've actually had a number of them to my house for dinner
Yeah, but how do they taste?
post #129 of 148
Gnarlito, Nothing to worry about. Those are just your average everyday run of the mill Altaholics when there has' been a powder day in a few days.
post #130 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Strato View Post
Viking: Your comments are balanced and fair. I can see how some people just roll with it, and don't get bothered. You're lucky.

I seem to have a reactionary streak in me; responding to a contradictory (hypocritical?) value system.

On one hand, Mormons come across as "family values", while wrapping themselves in the flag (most I met were staunch Republicans). Yet, they subordinate the flag to their church, crafting laws that favor church policy, while turning a blind eye - or offering tacit support - to polygamy which coerces young girls into unions with men who could be their grandfathers.

I found the "wholesome" structure to be hollow - a house of cards that collapses upon scrutiny.

Doubtless, there are Mormons who don't approve of polygamy-pedophilia, and who respect political integrity (don't support laws which favor and cede power to the church). I just didn't meet many.

Where we lived, it was ALL about the church. "So, where did you do your mission?" was often the first question I was asked. Translation: "Are you one of us?"

After a year, we gave up.

Also factors: blistering summer heat, and no access to water recreation.

The skiing, though, was everything promised - Bountiful!
As regards the reactionary streak, this could be the source of a lot of your problems. You have to go along to get along to some degree. You would't happen to originally be from Jersey or Pennsylvania, would you?

As regards the hypocracy, every organized religion has plenty of this. I beleive the relevant phrase is "white washed seplechure". Every religion has people who live their faith, and others who use it as an excuse to engage in immoral behavior with everyone who doesn't belong.

As regards where I did my mission I just say Germany and Sweden since I lived over there for eight years and I try hard to live what I beleive in every day. (As a Lutheran this includes swearing a beer, since Luther did plenty of both. But I also beleive in treating all people fairly, since this is the best testimony of all.) A lot of morms are scandinavian and they all know where they come from so there may be a hint of racism at work here, I'm not sure.

Finally, as regards the summer stuff, in addition to sailing I also like backpacking, dry fly and river kayaking, so I can always find something to do in the west in the summer.
post #131 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmillar View Post
Yeah, but how do they taste?
I don't know, we both had the beef!

Alternate answer: Hopefully with their tongues?

post #132 of 148
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by viking kaj View Post
As regards the reactionary streak, this could be the source of a lot of your problems. You have to go along to get along to some degree. You wouldn't happen to originally be from Jersey or Pennsylvania, would you?
Nope. I'm as Scandinavian as they come - born in Denmark with 100% Dane blood, and raised in Vancouver, BC (as left-coast liberal as there is).

I actually don't consider the "problem" to be mine. Yes, I do respond, but in this case I consider it appropriate and reasonable.

I've lived a lot of places, and I've never felt as fed-up as I did in Utah. Mostly, I was disappointed.

We arrived in Utah, optimistic, expecting Mormons to be decent, salt-of-the-earth type folks. We encountered the opposite.

The Mormons we met in Cottonwood Heights wallowed in their "holier than thou" posturing and judgment of others, with either direct or tacit support for coerced polygamy. Virtually all discussions converged on The Church. Casual conversations became and exercise in ducking the recruiter.

None of this would have seemed so hollow, if they weren't so petty. Our neighbors clearly reveled in their self-imposed sainthood.

Moreover, they had no qualms about The Church imposing its rules on non-members via political influence.

The Mormons we met talked a lofty game, but that was it.
post #133 of 148
Please let's leave the ad hominem, anti-LDS stuff off this board. In general, LDS people (at least the ones I know/ have worked with) are loyal, diligent, clean-cut, extremely polite, dependable, and honest. Not exactly the kind of people who tend to appear on the post office bulleting board. And if they are behaving like that to be self-righteous, it doesn't matter. They're great colleagues, but colleagues who won't go out for a beer after work. Not one has tried to convert me.

But in Utah, it's different. It's their Zion. The things about LDS life that many keep private, relatively, outside of Utah/southern Idaho are all out in the open there. For non-LDS folks, including me, it would be too much. I go there a lot on business and ocasisonally for pleasure. I have spent enough time there to know that the local political and business culture would drive me nuts since I didn't get married in the Temple, do a mission (it's always the next question after "What's your name?"--my hair is long enough that I am obviously not a Mormon, but they still ask), and I only tithe to myself. And, I get a little tired of being reminded that at least my birth certificate under Mt. Timpanogos will go to the Celestial Kingdom. And then, when you think you're escaping to a haven of universal secularism, you see that even bookstores like Borders have a large LDS section right near the front door.

But, as others have said, there are many other places in the country where certain religious communities are the dominant population. Utah seems different because it is a whole state (less PC), and the LDS church is deeply involved in all politics and business all the way up to the state level (and national, when you see whom they send to DC).

Yet, many non-LDS people have made a home there and love it. Anyone who is not LDS and is considering moving there should visit first lest they be beaten harshly by the iron rod of truth once they get there.
post #134 of 148
Thread Starter 
Faber: Apart from your first paragraph, your stance regarding issues with Mormon Utah is more compelling than mine.

My posts are observations based upon living within Zion, not next door to a Mormon family in Chicago.

We did go there, and it DID drive us nuts, as I believe it would for many. The brow-beating borders on harassment. It's not all fluffy "live and let-live" as some would have you believe.

If you're not used to a Church that lusts for political power, and control over everyone within its environs (member or not), don't move to Utah.

It's a tough pill to swallow.
post #135 of 148
Captain Strato, we certainly understand each other. Utah is tough to handle for non-LDS people. I don't think people who have never lived in the Rocky Mountain West could possibly understand just how tough.

The first paragraph of my previous post was not really directed to any specific post, but just a direction that some throughout this lengthy thread were taking. Mormons, as a whole, are not bad people. But in a place like Utah where LDS private life(style) becomes a public one, it can be stifling for those who do not have as much at stake in Utah (pun intended).
post #136 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mani_UT View Post


As a French, liberal, atheist, wine drinker,
All you have to say is French... we assume the rest!
post #137 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Utah49 View Post
Go to areas of the Bible belt South and the Christian Right is by far more controlling then anything I have ever seen here in Utah by The LDS chruch.
That's pretty true. (I'd say the two groups are equal in their own environemnts...) Anyway, before we moved here, I was talking to Bob and some other folks from snowbird about Utah. We lived in NC at the time, they said to us, "Well there are the mormons...", and my reply was, "We've got the southern baptists...(Of which techincally I am one). Then next part was, "And the liquors laws are kinda goofy..." "Yes, but we aren't big drinkers..." Finally "And the politics are messed up, Orin Hatch", to which I could reply "Jessie Helms..." They said, "Come on out, you're gonna love it...."

Living here is about finding a circle of like minded friends. If you can do that, then you are fine. If not, you'll hate it. (Kinda like everywhere else).
post #138 of 148
Cottonwood Heights is known for affluent mormon climbers.

I think it would be a very annoying place to live, but Utah in general isn't bad at all. I really think you chose a bad neighborhood.

If I knew you I would have recommended Sugarhouse or any of the Avenues, Harvard Yale neighborhoods. Ogden is way better than where you lived.

I think you plunked yourself right smack dab in the middle of future apostle/mission leader general station. That is a very competitive area.

Bad choice.

Plus, you may be a little dogmatic yourself. I hate to admit it but some of the most arrogant and dogmatic people I have ever met were liberals from Vancouver. They come off as self righteous and smug. Being a lefty myself I can say this with love in my heart.

You may not have helped yourself any.

Just saying.
post #139 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Strato View Post
Nope. I'm as Scandinavian as they come - born in Denmark with 100% Dane blood, and raised in Vancouver, BC (as left-coast liberal as there is).
Min hustru aer fraan Skaane. Danskar och Sudsvenskar brukar vara till en visst grad envisa ocksaa. And then there is the Canadian thing as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Strato View Post
The Mormons we met in Cottonwood Heights wallowed in their "holier than thou" posturing and judgment of others, with either direct or tacit support for coerced polygamy. Virtually all discussions converged on The Church. Casual conversations became and exercise in ducking the recruiter. None of this would have seemed so hollow, if they weren't so petty. Our neighbors clearly reveled in their self-imposed sainthood. Moreover, they had no qualms about The Church imposing its rules on non-members via political influence. The Mormons we met talked a lofty game, but that was it.
Sounds like the neighborhood from hell. Unfortunately, it is conveniently close to the Canyons. In my past experience Mormons leave you alone once you tell them you are saved and that you don't believe in the angel Moroni.

Do you think Sandy would have been better? Sugarhouse, and the U district would be my first choice.
post #140 of 148
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by viking kaj View Post
Min hustru aer fraan Skaane. Danskar och Sudsvenskar brukar vara till en visst grad envisa ocksaa. And then there is the Canadian thing as well.

Sounds like the neighborhood from hell. Unfortunately, it is conveniently close to the Canyons. In my past experience Mormons leave you alone once you tell them you are saved and that you don't believe in the angel Moroni.

Do you think Sandy would have been better? Sugarhouse, and the U district would be my first choice.
Fellow Viking: Unfortunately, my reading of Danish is non-existent. Verbally, though, I can hold my own with most people from Jutland.

Yes, we chose our neighborhood based upon proximity to the Canyons. It looked perfect from a "Home and Garden" standpoint.

In retrospect, probably anyplace else would have been better. But then, we only know what we encountered.

We met some of the local "Ski Elite" through our landlord, former Ski Goddess: Kristen Ulmer. If you think my observations of Mormon Utah are cynical, they pale in comparison to what some of those folks expressed.

They claim to also have arrived in Utah with an open, innocent attitude. But, like us, they too were "beaten harshly by the iron rod of truth" (an apt description by FABER).

If you can build a social circle outside the intolerant, judgmental mind-sets we encountered in Cottonwood Heights, and ignore a political structure managed by the LDS Church, I'm sure life in SLC can be tolerable, even enjoyable.

Although I preferred skiing in LCC and BCC, we found Park City to be an oasis of reason and normalcy. Park City has some wonderful people, and a nice buzz.

If you're going to hang in Utah for awhile to enjoy the alpine bounty, I suggest PC.
post #141 of 148
CS,

How many years ago was this?
post #142 of 148
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
CS,

How many years ago was this?
2003-2004
post #143 of 148
Wow Captain, I'm left wondering how hard it is to get along with you no matter where you live. I'm an atheist and a liberal and I've never been very good at holding my tongue or acting the part. That being said, I haven't had any problems here in UT, never had a lack of friends or made to feel unwelcome. I'm sure there are people here who hate me and would love to see me leave but how is that different than any other place? Hell, the pres of the United States (shrub), said that atheists shouldn't be allowed to be Americans, should I cry and move to France?
post #144 of 148
Yes 3Z you should cry and move to France. But then the French are snobs and Rude. When you do move you could leave your skis with me. I promise to ship them as soon as you ask.
I'm kind of a shy quiet guy. Just hiking on the trails around here this past summer I met people and made Friends.
Oh well I give up.
post #145 of 148
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag View Post
should I cry and move to France?
If you're unhappy, perhaps.

Suggesting I'm "difficult to get along with" is an irrelevant comment. I may or may not be so, but it's not part of anything that's been said.

One's willingness to accept (or not) a circumstance, isn't necessarily related to how one interacts with others.

My interactions with neighbors in Utah were cordial and polite. But, that doesn't mean we accepted or respected what they represented, or sought to impose.

If Utah works for you, cool! That doesn't mean you're easy to get along with, and me not.

You could alienate everyone who meets you, yet be happy as a clam. I could be the friendliest bloke on the block, yet reject everyone.

Likely, neither is true.
post #146 of 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Strato View Post
If you're unhappy, perhaps.

Suggesting I'm "difficult to get along with" is an irrelevant comment. I may or may not be so, but it's not part of anything that's been said.

One's willingness to accept (or not) a circumstance, isn't necessarily related to how one interacts with others.

My interactions with neighbors in Utah were cordial and polite. But, that doesn't mean we accepted or respected what they represented, or sought to impose.

If Utah works for you, cool! That doesn't mean you're easy to get along with, and me not.

You could alienate everyone who meets you, yet be happy as a clam. I could be the friendliest bloke on the block, yet reject everyone.

Likely, neither is true.
You win

I was feeling a bit testy after a night of no sleep. You can tell my thoughts weren't organized that well.
post #147 of 148
To clear up some of the exagerated LDS percentages posted above, these numbers are from an article in the SL Trib (July 24, 2005):

In 2004 there were 1,540,686 Mormans in Utah, 62.4% of the population, down from 69.5% in 1994.

Some other counties:

County LDS Pop LDS %
Salt Lake (SLC) 508,782 53.3%
Utah (Provo) 344,268 78.7%
Weber (Ogden) 118,168 56.4%
Davis (SLC burbs) 185,825 69.1%
Summit (Park City) 11,349 32.3%
post #148 of 148
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zion zig zag View Post
You win

I was feeling a bit testy after a night of no sleep. You can tell my thoughts weren't organized that well.
A gracious reply.

BTW, don't move to France.

We're in the home the stretch with our beloved President. With a bit of luck, he won't blow us up, and we'll make it through 2008.
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