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are my base edges set at 3.5*?

post #1 of 35
Thread Starter 
first off, my skis are salomon crossmax 10's (4 days of use). im using the yellow edge tuner (forget which brand) from tognar and a set of diamond stones. tognar website shows the skis should be tuned 1/1.

ok so last night i noticed that if i set the tuner to 1* and pull across the base edge, i dont feel or hear any resistance. when i tune the side with a 1*, i can just barely feel a little resistance (but not much).

after reading that salomon ships with a 1* base, i began to question what the hell i was doing. i put the fine diamond stone in the tuner and gradually increased the angle until i could feel any type of resistance. it wasnt until the tuner was set at a whopping 3.5 degrees.

the 4 days i skied on them were absolutely fantastic and i didnt have a single complaint. what's going on here?
post #2 of 35
What tool do you have? I think you are talking about the Multi Edge Tuner

A base beveler will be accurate on the base and a side beveler will be accurate on the side. Even though the item description says that it works on both I would not recommend using it on your base edge.

Checking your base bevel with a side edge tuner is not accurate and may cause overbeveling or removal of base material.
post #3 of 35
Probably.
post #4 of 35
Anybody have any experience using the Swix Xactor T2000, base and side edger? I believe it was the same edger shown in Dipstick's base and edge repair slides.

I have one of these from my buddy and wanted to use it on my Metron's to be sure they were 1&3 .
post #5 of 35
Don't mess with the base edges on the Metrons unless they need maintenance.

If you really want to check the base bevel get the SVST trubar.
post #6 of 35
What have you found to be the issue with the Metrons regarding base edge filing ? After my Colorado tune debacle and how bad the skis were Sat. I've become obsessed with making sure these skis have the 1&3 edge bevels they started out with. I did use my stone on my bottom edge to correct the "hanging burr" suggestion. And they did ski better Sunday. However, I'd like to have the assurance they are in fact 1&3.

I don't have a true bar, and probably not the skill and experience to accurately gauge what the bevels are. I thought my best solution would be to use the Swix edger that can be set at the bevels desired.
I appreciate your inputs and respect your knowledge, I have a tendency to make a bad situation worse, and would like to avoid that !

To make matters worse I have zilch confidence in the two closest shops to me providing me the right tune . The one screwed up a pair of Atomic 9'12's so bad last year , I never did get them right again and sold them cheap at the fall tent sale.
post #7 of 35
A true bar is the best way to check the bevel, second best though instead of feeling for resistance, is to use a permanent marker - make the base edge black with it, let it dry. Then set your bevel tool as you did before using a stone and see at what bevel the ink is removed.
post #8 of 35
Ski on them and see how they feel.

I wouldn't unnecessarily use a file or base bevel guide to check for the correct angle.

The bevel is already set and all you will be doing is removing material for no reason and messing with a smooth edge.

But they are your skis so do as you wish.

Sometimes it's just better to leave something alone before you break it or make it worse. I have done this alot in the past and have learned to leave well enough alone.

If it is bothering you that much go get the SVST trubar and we can help you figure out the base bevel.
post #9 of 35
Thanks SMJ and Scalce your advice is well taken. I think you are also correct regarding leaving well enough alone for the time being. I think I'll breakdown and buy some tuning equipment files,stones ,file guides, trubar etc. and attempt to learn how to become somewhat competent at tuning. My last two machine tunes confirm that you don't necessarily get a great job and it would be good to have the capability of being able to fix something on your own.
post #10 of 35
I know how u feel about wanting to check the base/edge angles after a tune. I've also have had less than perfect tunes in the past. A good knife edge true bar will allow you confirm the base bevel.
post #11 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by roundturns
Thanks SMJ and Scalce your advice is well taken. I think you are also correct regarding leaving well enough alone for the time being. I think I'll breakdown and buy some tuning equipment files,stones ,file guides, trubar etc. and attempt to learn how to become somewhat competent at tuning. My last two machine tunes confirm that you don't necessarily get a great job and it would be good to have the capability of being able to fix something on your own.
IMHO, the only base bevel tool to use when you are filing the base of an Atomic ski is TOKO's.

http://www.reliableracing.com/winter...&category=2000

I have explained this in many other threads. Since this beveler spans the entire ski, the concavity that is in the tip and tail of your ski does not effect the bevel angle you get.

It only works with files and DMT diamond stones. So once i set the base edge with the TOKO beveler with a file, I then use SVST's Final Cut Bevel Guide with Moonflex diamond stones to finish polishing the edge.

http://www.race-werks.com/product.ph...0000&cat_id=16
post #12 of 35
As for checking bevel:

You can do it with a true bar (any true bar, not just SVST's), if you have a sharp eye and a steady hand.

You can do it with the marking pen method, at the expense of removing material, and changing the bevel, in the course of measuring.

You can do it with an expensive tool that's built for the purpose.

I wouldn't do it by "feeling" for resistance or that the stone (or file) is cutting. What you might be feeling is the difference between the stone evenly smoothing the edge it's flush against (little cutting) and it being tipped up so that it's hacking away at the point of the edge (more obvious cutting).
post #13 of 35
Thread Starter 
FYI: i am using the multi edge tuner like Scalce suggested.

it just seems intuitive (to me) that if i dont feel any resistance using the tuner set at 1*, then the base bevel must not be a true 1*. which is a little disheartening if true.

how do i go about measuring the angle? im guessing a true bar (any suggestions for something around the house?) and a set of feeler gauges along with a little highschool trig and voila. sound good?
post #14 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobalt
FYI: i am using the multi edge tuner like Scalce suggested.

it just seems intuitive (to me) that if i dont feel any resistance using the tuner set at 1*, then the base bevel must not be a true 1*. which is a little disheartening if true.

how do i go about measuring the angle? im guessing a true bar (any suggestions for something around the house?) and a set of feeler gauges along with a little highschool trig and voila. sound good?
Here's a thread with a description of how to do it. http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...+measur e+bar

If you have a very straight metal scraper or something you might be able to get an idea of the bevel, scroll down that thread for skidoc's instructions. If you hold the straight edge in such a way as to close the gap that light shows through on the base edge and then look at how much of a gap is between the other side of the base and the straight edge, it should be a very tiny gap 1mm approx. If it's a big gap then you have a big base bevel.
post #15 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz
Here's a thread with a description of how to do it. http://forums.epicski.com/showthread...+measur e+bar

If you have a very straight metal scraper or something you might be able to get an idea of the bevel, scroll down that thread for skidoc's instructions. If you hold the straight edge in such a way as to close the gap that light shows through on the base edge and then look at how much of a gap is between the other side of the base and the straight edge, it should be a very tiny gap 1mm approx. If it's a big gap then you have a big base bevel.
You must look at the gap at 60mm from the edge you are measuring. I have scribed a mark on my true bar at 60mm from the point of the bar. I line up the point of the true bar with the edge I am measuring and eyball the gap at the 60mm mark. 1mm gap at 60mm from the edge = 1 degree.
post #16 of 35
I think it's www.tognartools.com or www.tognar.com they explain a lot. I use the Swix 1* base tool only when I'm going to wax. I only check the edge with a old diamond stone to knock down any burrs that may scratch the iron. If I want to check the base bevel I use a black marker as stated above. Then run the swix base guide down with a file with very light pressure. I tune my edges with a 100 then 200 moonflex after everytime I ski.
post #17 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobalt
FYI: i am using the multi edge tuner like Scalce suggested.

it just seems intuitive (to me) that if i dont feel any resistance using the tuner set at 1*, then the base bevel must not be a true 1*. which is a little disheartening if true.

how do i go about measuring the angle? im guessing a true bar (any suggestions for something around the house?) and a set of feeler gauges along with a little highschool trig and voila. sound good?
Scalce didn't recommend the Multi-edge he just asked if that's what you were using and said it was "INAPPROPRIATE " for base beveling!
post #18 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Scalce didn't recommend the Multi-edge he just asked if that's what you were using and said it was "INAPPROPRIATE " for base beveling!
i wasnt implying he recommended the tool. sorry for the confusion.

i will attempt to measure the base bevel tonight and see what i come up with. if i do find it to be way off, do you guys recommend having the skis tuned by a shop? im guessing the ski will have to be stoneground or sanded to knock enough base material away so that a 1* can be achieved.

any thoughts on having this done?

like i said earlier, ive been on the skis for about 4 days and was happy with them. this was last spring during a big sierra storm though (read:lots of fresh powder).

maybe i should just leave them be? *sigh*
post #19 of 35
Thread Starter 
also...where do i place the scribe mark on the true bar? on the inside edge (next to the p-tex), outside edge, or split the difference?

or....does it even matter?
post #20 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobalt
also...where do i place the scribe mark on the true bar? on the inside edge (next to the p-tex), outside edge, or split the difference?

or....does it even matter?
60mm from one end or the other on the side you will be looking at when you measure your base bevel.

I hold the ski up to a light source in front of me with no light behind me. I put me ski at an angle over my left shoulder base up with the tip forward and with my right hand reach over the ski with the true bar in my right hand. I line the left most side of the true bar with the outside edge of the ski edge on the left side of the ski. Tip the trubar on the edge until you can see no light coming thru between the edge and the tru-bar. Now look at the gap at the 60mm mark. This gap is your base bevel in degrees. You can put the true bar flat against the base and slide the trubar slowly down the ski towards you. Watch the light coming through over the edge and watch to see if the amount of light is equal as you move the bar down the ski. Flip the ski around with the tail in front of you to do the opposite side. You can do both edges with the ski in the same position. you just have to put the true bar even with the opposite edge and adjust your position so the light hits the ski correctly

You should also scrape and brush as much wax as possible off the ski before starting the process.

You can also line up the scribe mark with the outside edge of the ski edge and look at the end of the trubar as I think you have described above.
post #21 of 35
All the information posted further reinforces it is a terrible idea to tune your own skis if you don't have the correct tools and the knowledge to use them. I could probably fly an airplane before I could correctly read a trubar.
post #22 of 35
Thread Starter 
well i thought i had the correct tools to get me by but apparently the multi-tuner isnt the way to go?

anyone have success with or like theirs?
post #23 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobalt
well i thought i had the correct tools to get me by but apparently the multi-tuner isnt the way to go?

anyone have success with or like theirs?
Wow, One more time!!!!!

IMHO, the only base bevel tool to use when you are filing the base of an Atomic ski is TOKO's.

http://www.reliableracing.com/winte...8&category=2000

I have explained this in many other threads. Since this beveler spans the entire ski, the concavity that is in the tip and tail of your ski does not effect the bevel angle you get.

It only works with files and DMT diamond stones. So once i set the base edge with the TOKO beveler with a file, I then use SVST's Final Cut Bevel Guide with Moonflex diamond stones to finish polishing the edge.

http://www.race-werks.com/product.p...00000&cat_id=16
post #24 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Wow, One more time!!!!!
i genuinely appreciate all of your input as well as everyone else's. i understand that edger i have is not the best out there. ive understood that since the 2nd post of this thread.

i was simply asking if anyone had any success/liked them. i guess ill stick to more reading and less posting.
post #25 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobalt
i genuinely appreciate all of your input as well as everyone else's. i understand that edger i have is not the best out there. ive understood that since the 2nd post of this thread.

i was simply asking if anyone had any success/liked them. i guess ill stick to more reading and less posting.
Check out my much earlier post those links work to base bevelers!
post #26 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobalt
i guess ill stick to more reading and less posting.
Don't be discouraged.

It's just that there have been a few recent posts that all ask similar questions and have answers in them.

If you haven't already, do a search and you will find a ton of posts.

Beleive me alot of us like to post about tuning.
post #27 of 35
Just ordered the Toko base bevel guide. Any recommendations for what is the best grit stone to use for finishing the base edge after filing?
post #28 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard
Just ordered the Toko base bevel guide. Any recommendations for what is the best grit stone to use for finishing the base edge after filing?
You really need a 100, 200 & 400.

100 is for knocking down burrs before filing.

200 kind of all purpose

400 to finish polsih the edges
post #29 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
You really need a 100, 200 & 400.

100 is for knocking down burrs before filing.

200 kind of all purpose

400 to finish polsih the edges
Hey A'man, your advice please. I respect you a lot from what I've read and keep buying things you say to I just ordered the Toko base guide, I already have a $42 FK Vario Base Beveler, but you convinced me on that.

I also already have four DMT Diamonds (Small black, blue, red and large blue) and recently bought a red Moon Flex (200) Now your last post has me wanting to get a 100 and 400 as well, althought the DMT's seem to work fine. It's another $70 at Artech, and my credit card fingers are itching already.

What should I do? In addition to my own skis and my family's, I tune for friends and have started a little side hand tuning business as well. I could use the DMT's for other's skis and save the Moon Flexes for me and family I guess. What do you think I'll gain with the Moonies over the DMT's?

Happy Holidays by the way.
Steve
post #30 of 35
SMJ,

The Moonflex 200 and 400 (which I have and use) are probably the more important ones to have but I would continue to use the DMT 100 to knock down burrs until it wears out and then get a Moonflex one.

You can skip the 400 grit if you want and go right to an Arkansas stone.

If you had to choose just one Moonflex the 200 would be the best all around one to have. It cleans up any edge nicks after using a 100 stone and smooths out any waves from filing and prepares it for polishing.

I would continue to use the DMTs for your side hobby as you will wear them out quicker and they are cheaper.
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