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Ski tune Rant! - Page 2

post #31 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by roundturns
The guy I met in Vail that did my tune( unfortunately it appears he didn't "polish" the edges and left me with the dreaded hanging burr, showed me a grey gummi stone a friend of his from K2 gave him. He told us the Mahres skis never saw a file. The edges were kept clean and sharp with a grey gummi stone. I was confused as I understood him to be telling us that the gummi stone should be run at a 45 degree angle on the side edge. The gummi had a groove in it that the edge of the ski fit in. I neer used a gummi stone, so I had no reference as to what he was showing me.

Maybe if he would have run the gummi down my edges I would have had a more enjoyable day last Saturday. Having said that , A- Man had me correct the hanging burr by running a stone square to the bottom edge to remove the burr, so the gummi wouldn't have helped anything running down the side edge?
This guy in Vail's name wasn't Rossi was it? Short bald, handlebar mustache?
post #32 of 55
No,the tuner I met was named Mark, Short guy, mid 50's , full head of hair. He was very knowledgeable and experienced talked about the World Cup races that were held earlier. It wouldn't have surprised me if he may have done some tech work for the racers when they were in town.
post #33 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by roundturns
No,the tuner I met was named Mark, Short guy, mid 50's , full head of hair. He was very knowledgeable and experienced talked about the World Cup races that were held earlier. It wouldn't have surprised me if he may have done some tech work for the racers when they were in town.
Good. Rossi has some real old-school approaches. Runs a stone down the edge at a 45 degree angle at the end of the tune. Tunes everyone's skis with a 3 degree base and 3 degree side edge bevel (and doesn't mention this to them) and other things.

He's been tuning for decades, is an amazing skier, just a bit - shall we say - unorthodox
post #34 of 55
I always simply specify exactly what angles I want (1 & 3) and that seems to do the trick -- I wouldn't neccessarily rely on them to know the right tune for each and every brand. I took mine to Canyons Sports (because of employee discount) and they did a fine job - but I specified a hand-done edge; if i had had to pay for that and a grind at regular prices it would have been over $50!
post #35 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scalce
No way man


Proper and frequent tuning is neccessary in the Northeast.

You are from Cali no?
Yes I am from Cali. Had some hard stuff out here right now works fine for me. According to a guy out here form back east says these would be powder days back east.

However, I have skied all over and get anywhere between 30-50 days a season in depending on my availibility. Seen all types of conditions.

Not to take away form what all of you are saying but maybe I have never expereinced this tune problem. The only bad tune I ever got was once whe I tried to do it myself.

Cheers!
post #36 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by SKEEMEISTER
Yes tunes do make a difference, however, seems like a few of you might be a little over sensitive??

Not to start a war but it seems that the grip is that the skis feels slightly different in many cases than to what you were used to. It my require a day or so on the ski to recalibrate your skiing to the ski in these cases. It might be a good tune not just to the same specs that you were used to.

Remember don't tune your skis too much or the ski will eventually loose its ability to be resharpened with the correct bevel, degree etc.

Cheers!

Originally posted by Scalce

No way man

I will not ski on my skis without a proper tune. Beleive me it is very easy to feel the change between a .5 or 1 degree difference in base bevel. I think some people may not notice the difference between a 2 or 3 side bevel but some of us gear freaks would notice. A 1 and 1 is just wrong and you shouldn't have to deal with a improper tune or learn to get used to it.

We do not use a file for daily maintenance so we don't have to worry about the edge material enough to worry about it.

My skis will be long replaced or busted before that happens.

Proper and frequent tuning is neccessary in the Northeast.

My opinion:

You guys are both right. I understand where SKEEMEISTER is coming from because I ski in the west and it is hard to tell how your skis are tuned in powder. I understand where Scalce is coming from because, as a Canadian, I grew up playing hockey and I remember how my skates felt different depending on the sharpening. Guess the difference is some of us choose to ski on snow and some of us choose to ski on ice.
post #37 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOLOCOMan
Quote:
Originally Posted by SKEEMEISTER
Yes tunes do make a difference, however, seems like a few of you might be a little over sensitive??

Not to start a war but it seems that the grip is that the skis feels slightly different in many cases than to what you were used to. It my require a day or so on the ski to recalibrate your skiing to the ski in these cases. It might be a good tune not just to the same specs that you were used to.

Remember don't tune your skis too much or the ski will eventually loose its ability to be resharpened with the correct bevel, degree etc.

Cheers!

Originally posted by Scalce

No way man

I will not ski on my skis without a proper tune. Beleive me it is very easy to feel the change between a .5 or 1 degree difference in base bevel. I think some people may not notice the difference between a 2 or 3 side bevel but some of us gear freaks would notice. A 1 and 1 is just wrong and you shouldn't have to deal with a improper tune or learn to get used to it.

We do not use a file for daily maintenance so we don't have to worry about the edge material enough to worry about it.

My skis will be long replaced or busted before that happens.

Proper and frequent tuning is neccessary in the Northeast.

My opinion:

You guys are both right. I understand where SKEEMEISTER is coming from because I ski in the west and it is hard to tell how your skis are tuned in powder. I understand where Scalce is coming from because, as a Canadian, I grew up playing hockey and I remember how my skates felt different depending on the sharpening. Guess the difference is some of us choose to ski on snow and some of us choose to ski on ice.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I ski in the west and in case you haven't noticed every day is not a powder day.

this discussion has nothing to do with ski conditions.

Some of the worst snow to ski in with a bad tune is wet fresh packed down snow like we get here in Washington, oregon, BC. Sun Valey snow is often man made and absolutely hard as a rock and very very sensitve tunes.

If you are always & I mean always skiing hero snow and a few inches to a couple of feet of pow then you are right, a tune doesn't much matter, but get a grip on reality, man. That just is not the real world!
post #38 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I ski in the west and in case you haven't noticed every day is not a powder day.

this discussion has nothing to do with ski conditions.

Some of the worst snow to ski in with a bad tune is wet fresh packed down snow like we get here in Washington, oregon, BC. Sun Valey snow is often man made and absolutely hard as a rock and very very sensitve tunes.

If you are always & I mean always skiing hero snow and a few inches to a couple of feet of pow then you are right, a tune doesn't much matter, but get a grip on reality, man. That just is not the real world!
Sorry you missed the joke! Besides, you're from Washington, do you really know what powder is? (oops, sorry I was being sarcastic again, I'll try to keep my posts on a dry, serious level so you can understand)
post #39 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOLOCOMan
Guess the difference is some of us choose to ski on snow and some of us choose to ski on ice.
I don't really choose to ski on ice but I am looking for work out West eventually.
post #40 of 55
Arcs was bought by their neighbor, Ski-N-See. I used to work there. Don't know what it's called now...
post #41 of 55
All I can say is, if you want it done correctly, do it yourself.
post #42 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity
All I can say is, if you want it done correctly, do it yourself.
In my case if I want it done correctly the last person I'd have do it is myself. I still try though... Seriousl, getting a pro tune is good for me because it helps me to see the difference for good or bad between my attepts and shop's attempts. Anyway, I don't have a grinder in my basement so some things you do have to 'outsource'.
post #43 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman

Don't forget to knock off that hanging burr on the side edge!
Was that a hanging, swinging, or dimpled burr?
post #44 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZacMan1987
Was that a hanging, swinging, or dimpled burr?
Burr this ! MF!!!!
post #45 of 55
I had a tune at the mountain shop last US season, and they were also almost unskiable, they felt so weird. I went and asked what bevel they'd done, and yep, it was 1 and 1. Stockli are 2 side and 1 base. So took them to a "proper" shop and got it done right, and they felt OK again.
post #46 of 55
A true correct 1 & 1 should ski fine. Might not hold as well on hardsnow but as long as the base bevel was a your skis would ski perfectly fine.

My guess is that either they were under beveled in the tip and/or tail or Yep , a hanging burr off the side edge. It will make them ski cuckoo evrytime regardless of the actual bevels!
post #47 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOLOCOMan
Sorry you missed the joke! Besides, you're from Washington, do you really know what powder is? (oops, sorry I was being sarcastic again, I'll try to keep my posts on a dry, serious level so you can understand)
Weird damn sense of humor? what joke?
post #48 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodro
In my case if I want it done correctly the last person I'd have do it is myself. I still try though... Seriousl, getting a pro tune is good for me because it helps me to see the difference for good or bad between my attepts and shop's attempts. Anyway, I don't have a grinder in my basement so some things you do have to 'outsource'.
I have had two bad tunes back when I used to pay for a season tune. One was before a trip out west to summit county. It took two retunes to get them right. One by the shop that I did that tune at and one by the small shop in Breck that only dose tunes. The other was after four days on my G31's, got them back and they felt different, the shop fixed them.

I have a lot of tuning equipment from when my son was racing so it became a natural progression to tune my own. The skis only go to the shop for a stone grind went they need it, maybe one time a year.
post #49 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity
I have a lot of tuning equipment from when my son was racing so it became a natural progression to tune my own. The skis only go to the shop for a stone grind went they need it, maybe one time a year.
Exactly, the less often the better. I need to see a lot of scratched before I'll resort to it.
post #50 of 55
Thread Starter 
Atomicman, My Atomic R11 skis were done 1 and 1 and they sucked! They were unskiable with that 1 and 1 bevel. They went from one of the best hard snow groomed run skis to a ski I could barley control on a easy blue run. The factory specs for the R11 is 2 and 1 and that is what the shop should have done, unless I had said I wanted 1and 1. if I wanted a cheap grind and go, I could have had that done for about $12.00 at one of the ski rental shops. I was paying for a "pro"tune and should have gotten just that. Instead I got some kid who said, "We do all our skis 1 and 1."
post #51 of 55
I find it really comical that people keep on keeping on about Atomic skis and their factory set bevels.

Trust me, the factory set bevels aren't that consistent. Not as bad as Volkl lately, but still not anywhere close to consistent in my book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Capacity
All I can say is, if you want it done correctly, do it yourself.
I'd really like to see how you manage to keep a consistent base bevel on the ski while doing it yourself. Side edges can be touched up, but to keep a base edge proper and square and not base high requires a machine. The geometry involved should be self explanatory.
post #52 of 55
I am referring to the recommended factory set bevels.

I am well aware that Atomic does not turn out a perfect 1 and 3. I don't think many companies have exactly what they recommend but my Salomon 1080s had a very good consistent 1 degree base bevel so I didn't get those tuned yet. I did reset the side edge on them to be 3 which is not the Salomon recommended side bevel. They ski great and hold an edge pretty well for a softer ski.

I got my new Atomic skis tuned and properly set after skiing on the factory tune a few times.

I agree that there is no substitue for a base grind to get a nice flat ski and a competent tuner with a ceramic edger to set the base bevel properly.
post #53 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Utah49
Atomicman, My Atomic R11 skis were done 1 and 1 and they sucked! They were unskiable with that 1 and 1 bevel. They went from one of the best hard snow groomed run skis to a ski I could barley control on a easy blue run. The factory specs for the R11 is 2 and 1 and that is what the shop should have done, unless I had said I wanted 1and 1. if I wanted a cheap grind and go, I could have had that done for about $12.00 at one of the ski rental shops. I was paying for a "pro"tune and should have gotten just that. Instead I got some kid who said, "We do all our skis 1 and 1."
Actually the factory spec for an R11 is 1 base bevel and 3 side edge. ALL ATOMIC SKIS from Downhills to Slaloms to sugars, you name it should have a 1 base bevel and a 3 side edge bevel.

The question at hand & I don't think you can answer it is: Was the 1 & 1 the first shop did, really a 1 & 1. My guess is the base bevel was off (under beveled). If they had a true 1 & 1 they would ski fine, maybe not hold quite as well on hardpack but you should not have had a grabby unpredictable ski.

Your 1 & 2 was also incorrect and you can't convince me 1 more degree in "SIDE EDGE BEVEL" MADE THE NIGHT & DAY DIFFERENCE IN THE SKIABILITY.

It is almost 100% of the time inconsistent base bevels or a hanging burr on the side edge (this sticks down into the snow past the base) that make your skis grabby and unpredictable, not the side edge bevel itself.

The 1 degree side edge would not hold as well on very hard snow. But you should really have a 3!
post #54 of 55
Rant On.

I have a fine old pair of Kästle SG skis . I've not been able to use them much the last several years (had to feed the kids instead of skiing), so they are not worn out. I've had them tuned at several places. No one quite matched the factory finish, but that could be all in my head. Nevertheless, I remember the edges being sharp when new, and when they were tuned. You could slice bacon with them.

They haven't been tuned for a couple of years (I mostly demoed bump skis last year), but I noticed that a tune up could be about due, so I thought about bringing them into my local shop, or buying the equipment and doing it myself. While in the shop I asked what tools they had to sharpen edges. They showed me what they used, and it seemed to me that the tolerances I could achieve with these tools were not what I wanted. I also asked what bevel to put on my skis. The shop person said that I wouldn't notice the difference in base bevels anyway. I thought I should take a close look at the tune up I had them do on my yardsale bargains.

I am not impressed with the tune they did on these skis . Not only did they not fill in a slight gouge, the edges are sharp enough under foot, but they are only sharp for the middle 80 cm; they are dull for the first 75 to 80 centimeters and dull for the last 35 cm:. I'm thinking maybe that's why these skis pivoted so nicely and did not exhibit the bite I expected from racing slalom skis. My Kästles which have gone three years without a tune and are begining to show slight signs of rust are sharper than thes freshly tuned skis: . I will not trust these people to tune up my Kästles.

As I said above, I have had skis tuned before, and they did more than sharpen the middle quarter of the ski. So, I guess I have to do it myself or travel long distance, and hope that the same people who tuned it two or three years ago is still there:. The last person to tune my Kästles came out to ask me if I wanted the factory base and side bevels, or if I wanted to change to a more popular choice. He knew what they were, having raced a pair some years previous. I can't remember what the base and side angles were, but I do remember that the SG HAD a base bevel (maybe only 0.5 degrees?), unlike the SL and SG of the day which was flat.

Ok. Tell me what I need to buy.

P.S. Note to shop owners: Doing a rotten tune on a cheap pair of skis will not make a customer buy new skis from your shop.
post #55 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
I only let the shop we use do a flat base grind on their computer controlled Wintersteiger & then I finish the rest. The base tune is waht is going to make or break the tune. Not to say side edge isn't important, but the base bevels if goofed up can really make your life miserable on the hill.
Exactly my experience and practice.
If I need 1 degree base bevel I ask for .5 and do the rest myself.
For final .5 just a flat base and the finish by myself.
I don´t trust anybody to tune the skis the way I need/want.
Only a few light strokes with the file may make the difference between poor and optimal base bevel.
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