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Photo for discussion... - Page 2

post #31 of 45
Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat
Except I never wear skin tight clothing in public, and the fashion police would arrest me for red and grey...
Thanks for that! :-)
post #32 of 45
Originally Posted by lshull

Please clarify for me. With that much flex in the inside knee, how can he have too much pressure on the inside ski? Banking? I really don't think so. Look at some images of WC racers, they are WAY banked (and angulated at times) but manage to do a great job of regulating pressure on the inside ski by flexing their inside leg.....

For example (I couldn't find a good WC image but this one should do.)
This guy is way "banked" (he is also very angulated). He also has very little pressure on his inside ski. This is acheived by significant flex of the inside leg. (Just as WTFH has in his skiing just to a lesser degree). In fact if you look at the two photo's there are quite a bit of similarties (the position of the hands for example.)

I'm not saying your wrong, but I want a better explanation from you...
I apologize if my response came off a bit harsh. It wasn't meant to sound that way. Fox is definitely doing some things well. He's probably doing more things well than he is doing poorly. However, even those are a matter of opinion and expectation. A good stance width and general balance and steering are working well in this picture. Depending on where he is coming from (level of skier), these could be vast improvements over what he was doing only a day, week, month or year ago. But because I have no insight into that, all I can do is point out what could still be improved. We all need improvement, me included.

The racer in the picture is not banked. Banking is inclination without angulation. So to say that he is banked and angulated is contractictory. He is inclined and he is angulated. He is not banked.

The issue with how much flex Fox has in his inside knee is not material. You can flex a knee and hip with as much or as litlle pressure as you want. However, he is definitely banked. Some racers do bank in some situations just due to the extreme forces generated. Fox is not generating those kinds of forces in his picture. The dropped inside hand and low inside shoulder are the indication of banking. If the picture was taken from directly in front, I'm pretty sure you'd see that the angle created from the foot to the hip to the shoulder would be almost a straight line. If you took the same view and angles of the racer pictured, yu'd see a drastic angle from the foot to the hip to the shoulder. You can create the same line from the center of the feet to the belly button to the base of the neck to show that angle.

I'm actually surprised you picked on the banking. The banking is pretty easy to see. The bracing against the outside ski (pushing it away from the body and/or pushing the body into the hill) is a lot less obvious and I could easily be wrong about it. But based on the overall image, especially what looks like a stiff outside leg, I think it is the case. That stiff outside leg, as it slips away from under the body is another thing that makes too much pressure fall on the inside foot. Notice the picture of the racer has a good amount of ankle flex on the outside leg. This means he is generating forces with it. Fox's outside leg is not flexing the boot in this picture.

Does this answer your question lshull?
post #33 of 45

Thanks for the reply. Yes, you answered my questions.

You're right about the banking. I got my terms confused. Sorry. I hate it when that happens.

However, I still disagree about the amount of flex with the inside leg. I think it's 100% material. There's a reason his leg is so far forward and flexed at almost a 90 deg angle. I think that reason is to remove pressure from the inside ski. Now this pressure quite possibly is generated from the banking and if this is the case then you are right in that regard. A long inside leg would be take pressure and control off the outside ski, but that's not what we see with this skier. So with that, I think I can safely say, that he's doesn't have too much pressure on the inside ski. Unfortunately, we can't clearly see what's happening with the snow coming off the edge of the ski. To me that would provide a more definitive answer the question. If it's alot, then there's a lot of pressure on that ski and your right. If there's only a little, then my assessment is correct, and Fox is removing pressure from the inside ski. It looks to me that there isn't quite as much snow spraying from the inside ski as the outside which would indicate more pressure on the outside ski. But again, it's not clear.

I also think that his outside leg is long and rather functional. Could it be more active? Yes, but I don't think it's stiff enough that it is being pushed. There is flex in the knee on that side. Not a lot, but it's there. I guess the crux question is did the leg get longer or shorter after the photo was snapped. If it got longer I'll agree with you. If it got shorter, I think Fox is managing the pressure forces correctly. Again it's unfortunately we don't know the answer.

Again I think a big part of our disagreement is the fact that were looking at a static image of a dynamic sport. In exams it's one thing that helps and one thing that hinders. While we disagree, I think we both given Fox a thing that helps a person's skiing and a thing that hinders their skiing. To me the thing that hinders fox's skiing is the extreem tip lead. To you it's the banking. To me he's stacked on his outside leg, and this helps his skiing (again I'd like to see if the leg get longer or shorted after this frame.)

I also think your right about the boots. This also could be the cause of the lead change. A boot that's too stiff, preventing ankle flex, could be the cause from the increased knee and hip flex. It could also explaing a "stiff" outside leg. Those techinca's are know for being stiff. This might be an avenue to explore.

Fox, please understand we're not beating you up with this discussion. We're just trying to come to some conclusion based on two valid observations of the same photograph. I'm sure the same thing would happen to any of us if we were brave enough to post a photo of ourselves skiing (If I had one I'd post it !) To me, this makes me a better teacher. Drawing my own conclusions and then listening to other opinions and searching for validity in each. This process is not unlike the peer review process of a scientific journal. Good stuff.
post #34 of 45
Thread Starter 
OK, here's what I see as something which would resolve a few issues...
If my left arm/hand were further forward and up, then I wouldn't be able to drop down as much on that side, so, by bringing my hand forward, the whole stance would improve.
(as a side issue, I think the angle of the photo is making it look like there is a greater lead than there really was)
post #35 of 45

Just a thing or two then I promise I'll shut up and let others comment. :-)

I think of hands as indicators of stance/balance not "directors" of stance/balance. Try this. Find a sturdy wall and stand about 1-2 feet away from it with you shoulders perpendicular to it. Now inclinate the body to one side, leaning your shoulder up against the wall. Watch what your hands do. Most likely they'll move to a position to help keep your body in balance, even though the wall will hold you up (this isn't 100% perfect because the wall will "pinch" your inside shoulder.) Now move your hands to a new position (in your case up and forward). Pretty easy to do. Did this move your body off the wall? Most likely not. Now move your body off the wall without using your hands. How did you do it? Most likely by extending the leg that was closest to the wall. I think you've got the right goal, but I don't think simply moving your hands will do it. Hint: Look at the photo again and look at your inside leg!

I won't nit-pick the lead, because you very well could be right based on the angle of the photo. But here's what really telling to me. Look at the angle of your knee, it's almost 90Deg. Now look at the alignment of the ankles relative to the hip/shoulders. The inside ankle is pretty far forward. We would hope that this would be more inline with what we see on the outside foot which is in pretty good alignment relative to the hips and shoulders.

You can see what I mean in this photo.

EDIT (I meant to add this the first time): Try this. Standing flat footed, lift your foot off the floor from the hip so your thigh is parallel to the floor. Let your lower leg/foot hang free from the knee. What angle is your knee. It's about 90 deg isn't it. Now, close the knee joint and bring the ankle/foot to a position under your hip/shoulders. Now what angle is your knee? It's much less than 90 isn't it. That's what we're looking for.

I think one of the best attributes of your skiing is that you want to change it and your seeking an awareness of what your body can and can't do!
post #36 of 45
Thread Starter 
Don't shut up, keep talking!
post #37 of 45
I understand Nolo, I thought I gave him one good thing and one bad.

I guess other were a little harsh. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
post #38 of 45

Wrong Boots

You are in a boot that is too stiff for you.
post #39 of 45
I agree about the boots, Fox. I was skiing in a men's race boot for years and changed to a junior race boot a few years ago--I couldn't believe what a difference it made to be able to ski the boot and not have the boot ski you. Of course, you've heard this advice before...
post #40 of 45
I went from Lange's L10 Race to the 120 Comp this year. Man, what a difference. Sunday I had one of our examiners on staff tell me that he'd seen me skiing that day and I was "Skiing well". I'm light at 140lbs and the ability to flex my ankles better makes a big difference.

I think many of us get caught in the trap of buying higher performance equipment than we really need. I really didn't need the race boot and I had a really hard time flexing it. For example, I was constantly breaking at the waist in the bumps trying to get forward pressure on my skis. The ankles just wouldn't move. I still think that I could have gone a bit softer with the boots but these are much better than before. As a general rule, moves we make with our ankles have the largest effect on what our C.O.M. does, since this is the joint that is closest to the ground. If we can't move our ankles, then it becomes much harder to make those adjustments.

post #41 of 45
Thread Starter 

And now the answer to what I did...

So, I tried the 1000 steps (which is easy to do when the pistes are as long as they are around the Jungfrau region)
I tried bringing my inside leg closer to my outside (suggested on realskiers)
I tried a few other things.

OK, looking back up the slope, I didn't leave railroad tracks. (well, maybe sometimes)
What I did leave was an outside curve which was longer, with a more pronounced arc in it, and an inside one with less.
...between these two curves were my teeth.

Because no amount of drills or exercises can come close to the fun of being on vacation and just skiing.
(photos to follow)
post #42 of 45

And now the answer to what I did...


The tecnica boot your using does not allow you to flex at the ankles therefore I belive your not able to get pressure to the ski. Try Lange or Soly X-Waves.

post #43 of 45
Originally Posted by Taylormatt
It takes time to practice and engrain it into your brain about where hands/elbows should be. Keep at it.
Explain the hand/elbow thing. :
post #44 of 45
Rayl - I don't know what taylormatt meant - but I have been taught my hips should be lined up with my ankles & my shoulders forward of that line....

In order to help have shoulders there I need to have elbows forward of my ribs - not tucked in beside them.... also elbows should not stick out (they might hit something like a tree- also hinders good pole plant....)

Keeping my hands forward helps me stay well balanced over my skis - skiing with them "in my pockets" or "like a kangaroo" (think of skippy's hands) is detrimental to good balance... You can compensate though - my instructor tried to get a friend to get hands more forward so ankles could need to flex less ... friend was balanced with hands not so forward & shoulders not forward - but getting them forward would leave room for ankle flex to be an adjustment....

The staatlich I ski with says to activate core & then pretend to be turtle - stick head out of jacket(shell) this is similar to what I have been taught - activates core muscles & keeps shoulders that bit forward....
post #45 of 45
Thread Starter 
And here's the photos...
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