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What is banking: right/wrong

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 
What is wrong with banking?

This is a question that was asked in another thread and I did not want to muddy the original intention of that thread by devling into this separate issue.

I would say that banking is not wrong; skiing, no matter how you do it is never wrong. I would say that it is not as efficient as other techniques.

"Banking is the inclination (tipping) of the entire body, without anglulating."

My directional question would be that if you bank your turn, what do you have to do in order to start your next turn and is that move efficient?
post #2 of 27
Try banking on a steep icy slope, when you have slid all the way to the bottom I bet you will agree that it's "WRONG"!
post #3 of 27
Thread Starter 
Banking can actually be a lot of fun. Get some short skis with huge side cut and "drag your knuckles." Banking can also allow skiers that might not be as athletic, to make low-energy turns. This is why the term "WRONG" is subjective.

Banking, simply, just is not as effective or as effecient as inclination of the body with proper angulation.
post #4 of 27
Of course banking isn't wrong. Its another tool that comes in handy in the bag of tricks, especially when blended with a whole lot of proper angulation.

Go ahead and show me a winning SG or DHer that doesn't use some straight up banking now and again.
-Garrett
post #5 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman
Go ahead and show me a winning SG or DHer that doesn't use some straight up banking now and again.
-Garrett
Good Garrett!

Your answer keys in on the reason it's sometimes the appropriate body position in a turn. The body positions and angulations we choose to use in any specific turn is based on how high the centrifugal forces of that turn are, and what body position will counteract those forces enough to provide balance.

The faster and sharper the turn, the bigger the forces. The bigger the forces, the further inside we have to move out center of mass (CM). Banking serves to move our CM inside more than any other body position, so it's therefore obvious that the highest centrifugal force turns are where it should be used.

For a more comlete explanation of these forces, and how they relate to CM position, see the "A little quiz" thread.

FASTMAN
post #6 of 27
Thread Starter 
what i want people to tell me is if we are in this position of banking...what do we have to do to initiate our next turn? is this movement efficient? if not, why and what is a better movement? the focus is to find out why banking is not efficient and why inclining of certain body parts with proper angulation is the better, more efficient technique
post #7 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powder8
what i want people to tell me is if we are in this position of banking...what do we have to do to initiate our next turn? is this movement efficient? if not, why and what is a better movement? the focus is to find out why banking is not efficient and why inclining of certain body parts with proper angulation is the better, more efficient technique
seek neutral
post #8 of 27
Just flat out banking moves your CM way to the inside and forces you to pressure your inside ski to stay on your turn. Angulating gets you the same kind of high edge angle without bringing the CM so far inside, thus not robbing the outside ski of its power and shortening the distance the CM must move to crossover.


Or at least I think thats the case...
post #9 of 27
Maybe we should look at where a skier should bank if at all. At the top of the turn, middle of the turn or at the end of the turn. Is there a place in the turn that would be more beneficial to banking? Hummmmmmmm.--------------Wigs
post #10 of 27
In 1944 in Germany where I first started skiing seriously on skis without edges, not needed, and where the bindings consisted of bear traps and leather strap around the heel holding the low boot in the traps, Heavy rotation and banking was the only way one could ski.

When I have a lot of vertical today with ankle deep snow and a wide open slope I do some banking turns, they are less tiring if done right. Those turns are a Schwung/swing in the truest sense, long lazy turns, and to go from one turn to the next is very easy, like and upside down pendulum, the skier lessens the bank toward the end of the turn and just lets the body flow over the skis which changes the edges. It is done with a closes stance, the skis touching each other.

These were the turns used by the old women in long flowing skirts in my home town when they came from the woods loaded with heavy bundles of chopped branches for firewood strapped to their backs with ropes.

Take a tour of the off-piste with a guide in the Arlberg and you will see the guide skiing the 5000 ft vertical in long sweeping banked turns.

Now to modern packed and groomed skiing here. Banking is impractical, unless you are doing a mambo, because it is too slow in the corssover and does not lend itself to quick turns. I wrote it often here and say it many times: "Whatever you move one way in making a turn you will have to move back to start the next turn." When a good skier makes modern turns his skis may go from 10 o'clock to 2 oc'clock but his upper body mass only swings from 11 to 1 o'clock, and in fast wedeln or short swing may not turn at all. Everything is done from the hip down.

For great banked turns I wish you could have seen the old timers like Fred Iselin, Fridl Pfeiffer or Hannes Schneider.

....Ott
post #11 of 27
Just above everything everyone else has written is right, but I'll add just one thing. Most turns require at least a little higher edge angle than whatever angle you get by banking alone. That's the only reason you need to angulate. All turns require continual adjustment of the edge angle to keep them going where we want to go. If you only bank, somewhere in that turn you will find yoirself wiyhout enough edge angle. There may be some combination of speed, radius and terrain that allows you to complete a decent turn by banking alone, but it doesn't occur very frequently.
Racers in speed events frequently begin a turn with some banking, but they develop some angulation as the turn develops. They are constantly adjusting to maintain the best edge angle for whatever line they are on. That's completely different from a less skilled skier who banks because he is unaware of how to control his edge angle, or (as Ott wrote) from a skier who banks to make big lazy turns.

John
post #12 of 27
My name is Lurking, and I'm a banker.

The problem with banking is that you have to start the next turn by moving your center of mass down the hill, so the movement starts very high up the kinetic chain.

If you believe that the new turn should be started by tipping the new inside foot inside the boot, this is very hard to do while banked in the other direction.
post #13 of 27
Under what conditions should we bank? I bank for fun. It is a wild feeling to stay tall and lean the turn. I think it is a more difficult balance and it does put pressure to the inside ski, but it can be a blast to feel your CM so far away from your skis. I suspect it looks weird. I usually find the right conditions once or twice a season for me to do some banking. Sometimes I intentionally bank to a fall just to see how far I can push it.

As far as managing it, I think it is about the natural carved turn shape. As you come down the fall line, your speed increases and the acceleration of the turn increases the pressure on the skis causing a tighter arc that flings you back up and over. I think the movements, then, are minor adjustments in angulation to adjust balance. I never really analyzed it, though, and I don't have any video of me banking to know exactly what is going on. I think a flexible ski with a short radius allows this to be done at a reasonable speed.
post #14 of 27
The perfect condition to bank is whenever you feel like it, but its usually not the best way to do things. But not all skiing is about being the best...
post #15 of 27
banking is wrong if it locks you up and doesn't allow you flexibility for snow condition changes... so how you bank is as critical as whether you bank... if you're all stacked up and somewhat statue-like, banking is gonna be fun for a fleeting moment and then a pain in the arse when it comes time to make your next move... unless your next move is a hipcheck or faceplant.
post #16 of 27
Banking or total body inclination is a valid part of skiing and motorcycle racing.

When there is ample edge grip or traction we can bank against this grip. Notice a road racer with stickie tires throwing the bike down in a turn. they actually lean inward farther than the angle of the bike. Conversely, watch a speedway racer or flat track racer both of which ride on slippery dirt and anticipate sliding. These athletes angulate their bodies to the outside while tipping the bike to the inside.

My point being.... when there is good grip we can tip the whole body a bit more (requires less effort and fatigue) to make turns, However; when the snow is hard we need more edge angle and must keep the cm over that edge more.

To answer the turn initiation question, when banking turns the flexion toward the turn completion and a relaxation of the outside leg will aid in moving the cm across to the new turn. The hips, feet, and shoulders tend to stay more coordinated.

If conditions allow it, I like to bank and I don't apologize for it!
post #17 of 27
For any size turn radius, the cm must be in a proper position from a purely Newtonian physics dynamics reasoning. How far this position is inside the curve of the skis depends on the speed. The curve traced by the skis depends only on the edge angle. If your curve requires more edge angle than your speed allows, you must use angulation to achieve it. If your curve requires less edge angle than your speed would require you may even have to use reverse angulation, though conditions rarely have sufficient grip for that.

If your are performing a series of curves, you bring your cm over your skis before finishing the last turn to begin the next, basically letting your cm take a straighter line down the hill than your skis do, (bonus: this also helps keep your speed up). This move requires constantly adjusting the amount of angulation to suit the available grip and speed. The question should not be wether to use angulation as opposed to banking, but how to be able to vary the amount of angulation at will.

I like to get the most lean during the tightest part of the turn. I live for g-forces. I also don't care what it looks like. As far as using both skis, since my legs have wonderfully mobile joints at the hips and ankles and still serviceable knees, I have no difficulty pressuring either part of either or both skis no matter what angulation or banking I'm at.
post #18 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
For any size turn radius, the cm must be in a proper position from a purely Newtonian physics dynamics reasoning. How far this position is inside the curve of the skis depends on the speed. The curve traced by the skis depends only on the edge angle. If your curve requires more edge angle than your speed allows, you must use angulation to achieve it. If your curve requires less edge angle than your speed would require you may even have to use reverse angulation, though conditions rarely have sufficient grip for that.
Good stuff Ghost. This is the bottom line for determining when banking is appropriate, if balance is the goal.

FASTMAN
post #19 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott Gangl
These were the turns used by the old women in long flowing skirts in my home town when they came from the woods loaded with heavy bundles of chopped branches for firewood strapped to their backs with ropes.
....Ott
Great post Ott

BTW....anybody know what a bundle of sticks is called?

Ott, does sitzmark translate into bathtub?
post #20 of 27
No Rusty, a sitzmark translates as a mark your sitz leaves when you sitz in the snow...

.....Ott
post #21 of 27
So far Rick and Ott have got the best take on banking...

Banking turns are fun but they are very low energy compared to higher levels of skiing...the edge angles are low because the center of gravity is high.
However, you guys should be talking about inclination and then angulation...
If you incline too much it becomes banking BECAUSE THE PRESSURE BALANCE IS WRONG,THE PRESSURE CHANGES TOO MUCH TO THE INSIDE SKI AND THE CARVE IS NO LONGER CLEAN,ENERGISED.

If you do not follow this stage with angulation then you fall uphill.

The correct relation between inclination and angulation is the fine line where the high-side crash awaits.
See youcanski.com
post #22 of 27
What g-force said:
Quote:
Banking turns are fun but they are very low energy compared to higher levels of skiing...the edge angles are low because the center of gravity is high.
What Rick said:
Quote:
The faster and sharper the turn, the bigger the forces. The bigger the forces, the further inside we have to move out center of mass (CM). Banking serves to move our CM inside more than any other body position, so it's therefore obvious that the highest centrifugal force turns are where it should be used.
These two statements are not in agreement.
post #23 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powder8
what i want people to tell me is if we are in this position of banking...what do we have to do to initiate our next turn? is this movement efficient? if not, why and what is a better movement? the focus is to find out why banking is not efficient and why inclining of certain body parts with proper angulation is the better, more efficient technique
Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but... raise the CM vertically.

There are so many variables in a "banked turn" that generalizing is almost folly; however, I'll attempt a response.

In a highly inclined turn, the centripetal forces of the ski on snow are aligned with the centrifugal forces of the CM pushing against it. This alignment must be broken to stop the turn. Gravitational forces will break the alignment at some point if the banked turn is allowed to continue.

The challenge is to move the CM from the inside of one turn to the inside of the next. If the CM is kept high in the plane bisecting the skier from front-to-back, then the distance the CM must travel is at it's greatest, and the energy required to raise it in the plane bisecting the skier side-to-side is also maximized.

One way to break the centripetal/centrifugal alignment is to re-cant the "tower" by jamming the inside pole in the ground and pushing the tower over. Highly inefficient (and most likely ineffective). Once a certain degree of inclination is surpassed, the only available movement is to raise the CM vertically before it can be moved across the skis by any means. Conversely, with angulation, in the right circumstances it is possible to cross the skis under the CM, or move the CM over without raising it first. (faster transition)

Another variation is to lower the CM in the side-to-side plane, which lowers the energy needed to move it vertically and shortens the distance traveled. However, some force is still needed to move the CM vertically to "roll it" up and over the skis. Lowering the CM would be accomplished by reducing the distance of the CM from the base of the tower (feet). This is accomplished by breaking forward at the waist or moving it down and back by dropping the bum. Not the most desirable movements.
post #24 of 27
Good posts

I think alot of my chatter problems are from doing more of a banking turn instead of inclinating after reading how it puts too much weight on the inside ski and I can't properly weight the outside ski. This also leaves me in the backseat sometimes when I hit a compression which causes way too much muscle power to recover and tires me out quicker.

The most recent Ski actually has a few small instruction articles about this.
post #25 of 27
Banking is the term most commonly used when the body is in a long, fairly aligned stance, resisting the forces of a turn. It also encourages balance "against" the ski, rather than balance "on" the ski.

In certain circumstances, it is easy, somewhat effortless, and no doubt, aesthetic. But as several have commented on previously, when the going gets tougher, that stance does not allow for much flexibility or the loss of purchase in the snow. It also does not promote shorter turns or the efficient skiing of irregular terrain.

There has always been an argument in ski instruction circles about the difference between inclination and banking. For my purposes, I have always defined them relative to where in the turn it occurs. I view it as inclination if done prior to the fall line, while initiating and working WITH the natural forces of the turn. I then view it as banking after the fall line, when it then works AGAINST the forces of the turn.

But the greater argument among instrs over the decades has been whether banking/inclination are forms of angulation. If you read back in the various books which originally detailed all of these premises (especially Joubert), he does include them all together, under the idea that they all create some degree of edging. But others will argue that because of a lack of separation (angles) of functioning body parts, that they are not related.

But back to the initial question.
Banking as I view it, is not the most functional or efficient means by which to create an edged ski, IN MOST CIRCUMSTANCES. It causes delayed transitions by virtue of the amount of mass which much be moved, and limits verstility in turn size, shape, and terrain.

Whereas various forms of angulation allow for smaller body parts to be moved quicker, more accurately, with greater effectiveness, and allowing far greater versatility.
post #26 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scalce
I think alot of my chatter problems are from doing more of a banking turn instead of inclinating after reading how it puts too much weight on the inside ski and I can't properly weight the outside ski.
This will be true if you don't flex your inside leg enough to get your weight more balanced on the outside ski. You can incline (bank) and keep your weight balanced appropriately, however.
post #27 of 27
Why I mentioned the old ladies with a load of branches skiing by baniking is that if you carry a 50 pound pack stacked bones are needed, angulation really does a number on you carrying such a load. Also those women usually were in a foot of snow where edge purchase is not so important and on wide open ungroomed slopes.

In my book inclination and banking can be interchagable, it's the leaning of the whole body into the turn instead of leaning the lower body more and the upper body less as with angulation.

....Ott
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