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DIN settings

post #1 of 33
Thread Starter 
Do you set DIN settings yourself? What tables to you use?

I ask these questions because the techs that installed bindings on my new skis probably did not set the DIN's right. I can get my boot out of binding by simply twisting my leg, without too much force. Also, yesterday I made a hard hockey stop to avoid bumping into a guy, and my both skies got detached (I guess rear bindigs let go) when I started breaking. The spead was not that high and I was keeping everything under control untill I lost my skies.

I wanted to increase the DIN setting a bit, but I am slightly afraid to do so after reading all the worning in the manual that came with my mindings. Also the manual says that the binding setting table is not attached intentionally, because only certified professionals should set DIN's.
post #2 of 33
Take them back to the shop that installed them and have them tighten the settings some. Ask them to show you how to do it on the bindings you have. There's nothing wrong with being able to twist out of your bindings. It's only a problem if you can twist out of them too easily.
post #3 of 33
Sometimes DIN settings are correct but the binding installer fails to apply the correct forward pressure. When the bindings are closed, the boot should be firmly against the toe piece. Since DIN settings themselves are a no-brainer, I am more inclined to believe there are other settings to blame. Also, the shop should have done a release check using a torque gauge.
post #4 of 33
If you set your bindings yourself, you must:

-Understand what forward pressure is, and what the appropriate setting is. There is always an indicator, and there are many forms and locations of such.
-The actual setting, which is now an ISO standard BTW, is based on several factors. Simply looking at the chart will not get you the appropriate setting.
-Unless you own a Vermont calibrator, you have no idea whether or not the bindings release appropriately. Perhaps 10 percent of bindings require an adjustment to be judged as compliant. Those are some lousy odds to gamble on in my book.

Or, your local shop will do it for fifteen bucks. If you are unhappy with their work, go back and ask the technician. If you are:
-Over 50
-Chose a skier type less than 3
-Have a height/weight combination far outside the mean

...it is likely that your bindings were setup in accordance with the ISO standard, but that isn't in accordance with what is correct for you.

I can twist out of any binding set below 11 or 12, so that isn't a bad thing at all.
-Garrett
post #5 of 33
I think the "din should only be set by skilled professionals" is only there for liability. It is BS.

However, usually DINs are not the reason for pre releasing (although people often compensate for it by cranking up the DIN)
post #6 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by nealric
I think the "din should only be set by skilled professionals" is only there for liability. It is BS.
...
Quote:
However, usually DINs are not the reason for pre releasing (although people often compensate for it by cranking up the DIN)
These two statements seem to contradict each other.

My credentials:
-I've skied in pretty much every modern binding.
-I'm a big fat kid.
-I have no sense of finesse. I'm the kid that tacos every rim on every bike, suspension or not. I therefore have a lot of experience with this "pre release" thing.

IMHO, the leading factors that cause pre-release:

-Binding design. Sorry, but Marker and Salomon etc. just don't have the elastic heel travel my FKs have. My trial and error heel setting in the old crap Atomics was 14. My trial and error setting in Salomon is around 12.5. My trial and error setting in a axial/FK is 10. Thats a pretty massive difference if you look at the release torque for those settings.
-Insufficient forward pressure. The factory setting is often not quite enough, and in the case of some is a rather vast "range" that works well at the close end but not the loose end. Overdoing this will dramatically increase your chances of injury. When forward pressure is pinned, the binding doesn't release....period. The location of the heel changes dynamically as the camber of the ski does, ******** marketing of binding systems notwithstanding.
-Improper adjustment of Salomon toes.
-Worn bootsoles. Any noticeable wear is too much.
-Binding chart "peculiarities" that bite certain groups of people. Like aggressive 50 year olds. The chart does a good job of assessing risk, but certain groups of people ski better than their risk assessment allows them to.
-Last, but not least: the release settings. Increase these with care. There is almost no reason to increase the toe setting as much as the heel setting. With modern skis and technique, I feel that the chart should be realigned to have the heel settings perhaps 20 percent greater than their current proportion to the toe settings. Meanwhile, you can ride an extra point or two in the heel. If you still come out recheck the above, starting with the first and most important.
-Garrett
post #7 of 33
Quote:
These two statements seem to contradict each other.
My point being that you dont need to work at a shop. You DO need to know what you are doing.
post #8 of 33
Setting DIN is nto rocket science but if you don't know what you are doing the results can be bad.


DIN seetings are determined by a few factors age, weight, boot sole mm length, and type skier. If yo are very young or I think th e cut off is 40 you will recieve a step down from your normal DIN setting.

Essentially all these factors get used on a matrix adn the output is your DIN.

For example I am 28, 215 lbs, 325mm boot sole, adn a type III skier my factory preassigned DIN is 8.5. I usually keep it there or abouts 9.0.

I fyou are pre-releasing it is likely you do not have the correct forward pressure. It is also possible that one of the fatctors inputed was wrong or the bindings are faulty.

Take them back to who you took them to originally and tell them they don't work correctly and you want them readjusted.

Shops should have a machine that measures the resistance it takes for your bindings to release based upon what they are supposed to be set at. Sometimes the machine works a little crazy and to get the bindings "to pass" you must lower the din. Bindings like Look/Rossi and Marker casue havoc on the machine because of the amount of elastic travel (the distance your foot can travel in the binding with out being released) Look/Rossi have the most.

Take them back and insist they fix the problem. Do it nicely otherwise ( at least at the shopp I work at) people tend to shut down.

Cheers!
post #9 of 33
Thread Starter 
I guess it is that statistical "outlier" problem in my case... I called the shop and they confirmed that they measured all pressures and forces using my boots and special devices, and they based the forces that they set up on my height/weight/age/level and standards.

But apparently the DIN setting of 5 is nothing for me - it is not that I can twist my leg out of it - I can just pull my leg to release the rear binding, and the required force is only about half the force it takes to take off a boot after a day of skiing... I just cannot believe it can be right. I guess my 138 lbs weight confused the "formula" - my wife at 120 lbs got 4, which is probably right for her. But, for example, the weight I squat with is about 5 times bigger than her workout weight (and about 3 times as big as the weight of my body), while the release settings are almost the same.

I guess I'll adjust it to 5.5 - it should not be a big difference. Also, I wonder why they do not use any strenght-based variables in their formula. Height and weight are extremely poor variables for making generalizations.
post #10 of 33
Having your din set by a certified binding tech does allow you some recourse should you get hurt using their product, whereas if they are not installed by a certified binding tech you could be screwed. Having worked for a larger binding distributor I can tell you they get several inquiries daily regarding liability. The courts are very quick to dismiss a lawsuit that cannot show that the liability stands with the company regardless if there is a defect. Basically...if you are not certified, and you mess with your bindings, you get hurt or worse, tuff luck. If you are certified, or get your equipment worked on by a certified tech, you get hurt or worse....$$$$. Be careful. Just for the record, knowing this, I still set my own DIN.
post #11 of 33
Since I am over 50 years old. My din setting by the charts dropped by 2 points from the day I turned 50 They went from a 7.5 to a 5.5. ( hence my user name Utah49 The 5.5 setting is way to soft of a setting for how I ski. When i have bindings mounted at the shop they set at 5.5 as the charts say they should. I don't ask them to set higher becuse it puts them at risk of a lawsuit. I take the skis home and I re-set my bindings at the old 7.5. They release when they should and I don't have any problems with pre-release.
post #12 of 33
mdb, what is your height, weight, boot sole length, and skier type?
post #13 of 33
Just becasue tey set it it does not mean that the binding can not be faulty.


A shop is going to defend there position at all costs you need to insist that they re-examine the bindings for proper settings and for any faulty behavior.

Remember most of these guys testing your bindings are under the age of 20 and for many of them it is their first job.

IN theory yes the bindings were done correctly but it definetly sounds like they ar enot working to the level in which they should.

Insist on additional help and give them good reason for it like I just spent a bundle at your shop, I have enjoyed the service until this, I have snt other people your way etc. They angry wronged customer usualyy doesn't get anywhere.

Chees!
post #14 of 33
I worked in a shop for a while and got to know a few different binding systems. That can actually be as bad as not knowing anything. Case in point - I thought I'd worked on enough Salomon's that they were all the same. I haven't really seen a Salomon chart much different. Then I got some new skis last year and set the bindings myself. Just for fun I went into a shop to check how well I did and noticed I was off on the DIN by 1.5. That's not bad, and almost certainly not enough to get hurt, but I was still off.

So you have a nice baseline to work with. Just crank it up about 2 or so. When they asked you what level of skier you were, what did you say? Generally that alone is worth 2 notches. (By the way, 5 seems really low, especially if you're a big guy. I would expect a 5 to be someone about 5'5", 150lbs, average skier.) I don't think there's much to worry about when messing with the DIN - I'd be more worried about other adjustments like boot sole length, etc. If you get hurt, you get to keep all the pieces and console yourself by knowing there's no one except yourself to blame.
post #15 of 33
A few thoughts:

- A particular DIN number corresponds to a particular torque necessary to release the binding. It's the same for all bindings, made by all manufacturers except for bindings that aren't working properly. A 5 is a 5 is a 5. When they test the binding in the shop, that's what they're testing. The appropriate machine can test it with a good degree of accuracy.

- How much torque you want to be necessary to release your binding is a whole different question. It's ultimately an estimate, and a compromise between two dangers: your binding not releasing when it should, and your binding releasing when it shouldn't. The DIN chart proposes an estimate, based on relatively easy-to-determine factors (height and weight, as an estimate of bone strenght; boot sole length, which relates torque at the toe to torque at the bone; and skiing style, which estimates the relative danger of failure to release vs. premature release). No ski shop has a machine to measure what it should be.

- If (i) the shop figured (estimated) your DIN setting should be 5, (ii) they tested the binding correctly and (iii) they set your bindings to 5, then: that means your bindings "work," in the sense that when set to 5, the torque required to release them is what it's supposed to be. While this doesn't guarantee that if you set the DIN to 7, the torque will be what it's supposed to be at 7, that's highly likely. It also means that the forward pressure (and anything else that needs to be set, like toe height) are correct. Those adjustments don't change as you adjust the release setting (DIN).

If you fear the shop didn't test them correctly, you could have them (or someone else) test them again.

If you're confident they did test them correctly, but just estimated the appropriate DIN setting too low, you might increase the DIN setting.

Also:

Quote:
I can get my boot out of binding by simply twisting my leg, without too much force.
Depending on what you mean by "too much force," that's normal. I can twist out of my bindings.

Quote:
Also, yesterday I made a hard hockey stop to avoid bumping into a guy, and my both skies got detached (I guess rear bindigs let go) when I started breaking. The spead was not that high and I was keeping everything under control untill I lost my skies.
Without being there, it's not possible to say for sure, but that sounds like something that shouldn't have happened (particularly the part about losing your skies ... you should never lose your skies unless you go indoors).

It is not unknown for people to set the toes and heels differently. If you think about it, this isn't that strange: the torque required to release the toe isn't the same as the torque required to release the heel. The force required to release the heel is just a value that standards-setters think would be right for someone for whom the corresponding toe-force is also right. In particular, I could see a higher setting on the heel making sense for someone with very long feet.
post #16 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by nealric
I think the "din should only be set by skilled professionals" is only there for liability. It is BS.

However, usually DINs are not the reason for pre releasing (although people often compensate for it by cranking up the DIN)
You are partially right. The standards approach has turned the helter skelter, unsafe ski world of the 70s into a safe one for all of us. In general, setting bindings should be left to someone who is a certified pro but it is not that hard to learn. As for proper settings, the tables should be used. Experts, racers, and others might set them higher. There was another thread with a long discussion on that.

A lot of people who set their own bindings do not know that there is a third "setting", forward pressure. If that is not correct the system will not work properly. Also, do it yourselfers don't take into account all the variables and use something like the twist out method for determining the correct setting. That has not seriously been used since the DIN standards were implemented 25 years ago.
post #17 of 33
For further safety (faster binding release), is reducing a few pounds to our real weight a sensible thing to do?I'm just 50, Wife 41, son 6.

Tks again.
post #18 of 33
What you are forgetting here is that what is in the window is just a point of reference. It is what the binding torques at that is important. If the window says "8" but torques (I do not know off hand what the "range" is) as a "10", it is a "10". This is the main reason that a shop should check and set your bindings. Unless you have a Vermont Calibrator to test your bindings, a shop should do your adjustments.

The newer the binding is, the less chance the the spring is off, but it does happen. IIRC, if a "new" binding is off a certain amount, it should be sent back, but I forget what those perameters are.
post #19 of 33
Agreed, Phil. This is why some of the manufacturers are now laser inscribing the DIN scale as the final step in manufacturing: they calibrate the springs and etch the scale based on measurements.
post #20 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Pugliese
What you are forgetting here is that what is in the window is just a point of reference. It is what the binding torques at that is important.
I'm not sure who you're responding to. What I said was:

If (i) the shop figured (estimated) your DIN setting should be 5, (ii) they tested the binding correctly and (iii) they set your bindings to 5, then: that means your bindings "work," in the sense that when set to 5, the torque required to release them is what it's supposed to be. While this doesn't guarantee that if you set the DIN to 7, the torque will be what it's supposed to be at 7, that's highly likely.
post #21 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjjohnston
I'm not sure who you're responding to. What I said was:

If (i) the shop figured (estimated) your DIN setting should be 5, (ii) they tested the binding correctly and (iii) they set your bindings to 5, then: that means your bindings "work," in the sense that when set to 5, the torque required to release them is what it's supposed to be. While this doesn't guarantee that if you set the DIN to 7, the torque will be what it's supposed to be at 7, that's highly likely.

I am sorry, I read right over your post. But I said basicly the same thing, but added that what is in the window is always the same as what the spring is.
post #22 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by nealric
My point being that you dont need to work at a shop. You DO need to know what you are doing.
And a darn good point it is.

SSH: The bindings have always been tested at the factories. The new laser inscribed calibration setup is there to reduce costs. It doesn't mean that the binding will be perfect out of the box, and it definitely doesn't change the fact that wear will change results over time.

I really wish I didn't have to do torque tests. Anyone who has done one can probably understand why.

Phil: the "send it back" range for a new binding is anything out of the perfect torque by more than about 30 percent, which is really huge if you think about it. Literally, the difference between TWO skier types. So one binding can be set at Type I, test close to Type III, be turned down, and still "pass".

In fact, the binding can be set at Type I, test very close to Type II, and pass with no adjustments.

It isn't nearly as precise as it should be. My personal standards when I do tests are quite a bit tighter.
-Garrett
post #23 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman
Phil: the "send it back" range for a new binding is anything out of the perfect torque by more than about 30 percent, which is really huge if you think about it.

-Garrett
Thanks, I forgot what it was, it has been years since I was in a "back-shop"
post #24 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpaul
For further safety (faster binding release), is reducing a few pounds to our real weight a sensible thing to do?I'm just 50, Wife 41, son 6.

Tks again.
Binding settings are conservative and will work fine for you and your family. Just correctly assess your skill level...type I, II, or III.
post #25 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdb
But apparently the DIN setting of 5 is nothing for me - it is not that I can twist my leg out of it - I can just pull my leg to release the rear binding, and the required force is only about half the force it takes to take off a boot after a day of skiing... I just cannot believe it can be right. I guess my 138 lbs weight confused the "formula" - my wife at 120 lbs got 4, which is probably right for her. But, for example, the weight I squat with is about 5 times bigger than her workout weight (and about 3 times as big as the weight of my body), while the release settings are almost the same.
So you squat 400 lb..........

You're in alot better shape than the average Joe. It's not just weight, but strength that causes the releasing.

I'm 6'1, 180 lb, 26, in decent shape, expert skier, 293mm bootsole (short). My recommend din is 8. I ski properly adjusted salomon race stock and 997 drivers (retention oriented bindings). I'd say my "normal" spot on them for DIN is a 12, though I ususally ski a 13 since I favor retention. 11 gives a pretty easy release.

I suggest you go up to about a 7 or 8 din, and see how that works for you.
post #26 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star
So you squat 400 lb..........

You're in alot better shape than the average Joe. It's not just weight, but strength that causes the releasing.
The ISO standard doesn't take strength into account for good reason. While height, weight, and age are good predictors of the strength of a persons bones, strength is a very poor predictor. While it is true that strength training can increase bone strength, AFAIK there is no surefire way to relate strength to bonemass.

This is why the over 50 guys get annoyed at the chart. It predicts your risk of breaking a bone, not your risk of pre-releasing. So the over 50 crowd still skis well and needs retention, but the chart downgrades them since they are at higher risk due to decreased bone density.

You have your bindings running that high because you aren't in the best heelpiece on the market. Change your binding brand, and you could likely bring it down to 10 or 11 no problem.
-Garrett
post #27 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman
The ISO standard doesn't take strength into account for good reason. While height, weight, and age are good predictors of the strength of a persons bones, strength is a very poor predictor. While it is true that strength training can increase bone strength, AFAIK there is no surefire way to relate strength to bonemass.

This is why the over 50 guys get annoyed at the chart. It predicts your risk of breaking a bone, not your risk of pre-releasing. So the over 50 crowd still skis well and needs retention, but the chart downgrades them since they are at higher risk due to decreased bone density.

You have your bindings running that high because you aren't in the best heelpiece on the market. Change your binding brand, and you could likely bring it down to 10 or 11 no problem.
-Garrett
You are right except that over 50s who weight train regularly maintain high bone densities. The table makes a lot of assumptions and are generally safe to follow but they do not take into account all the individual variables. That would be impractical.

I do set my bindings a little higher but not as high as I once did and due to my training regimen feel that I am safe in doing so.

However, most recreational skiers are well served by the DIN tables. They have helped to make our sport much safer in the past 25 years.
post #28 of 33
I'm 44, 225 lbs, a level 8 skier. How do I learn what my DIN setting should be. The shop that set me up has my bindings at 7. Is that right?
post #29 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by jstraw
I'm 44, 225 lbs, a level 8 skier. How do I learn what my DIN setting should be. The shop that set me up has my bindings at 7. Is that right?
Can´t you get the chart somewhere?
It´s no secret info.
post #30 of 33
The links for DIN Charts shown below were distributed a few years ago. One of them mentions possible changes to the DIN chart, so be aware.

http://www.terrymorse.com/ski/din.html
http://home.online.no/~stigbye/skiin...djustment.html
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