New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Mis-mounted bindings?

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
I recently purchased a pair of Volkl Vectris 184 cm shaped skis with 8.1 marker bindings from a friend this past season, that had been skiied on maybe 10 days total. But from Day One, I had trouble controlling the tips, and ended up with black toenails. The tips are slightly unstable at any speed, and I guess I was overcompensating by pressing down with my toes. I'm a decent skiier who has tried a few pairs of very similar rental skis with no problems.

I suspect that the bindings are mounted incorrectly, but do not know how to go about figuring out whether they are or not. Any suggestions? Or is it something else?
post #2 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisg:
...I had trouble controlling the tips, and ended up with black toenails ... I guess I was overcompensating by pressing down with my toes ... I suspect that the bindings are mounted incorrectly...
Your comment that you were pressing down with your toes (perhaps you meant curling or "gripping", not actually pressing down) indicates that you were uncomfortable in the situation (for whatever reason) and suggests that there might have been times you were leaning back.

Black toenails usually don't come directly from curling your toes, but rather, come from a combination of boots with a sloppy fit (particularly, boots in which the ankle can move forward excessively) and leaning back. When you are doing the latter, your lower leg pivots on the rear spoiler of the boot, and this drives your whole foot towards the front of boot, which in turn jams the toes into the front of the toebox.

I have no way of knowing what was causing the instability that you felt. I can make some guesses, but that's all they would be without seeing you ski or having much more info on you, your equipment, the snow conditions, etc.

Bindings occasionally get mounted incorrectly, but this certainly wouldn't be my first guess. I would look first towards boot fit and technique. A half hour in your local ski shop will quickly rule fit, binding placement and other equipment problems in or out. I see you are in VA. If are in northern VA, the Ski Chalet in Arlington is a great place and would probably do a quick equipment check for nothing.

Good luck,

Tom / PM

PS - I just noticed your other post where you described skiing at Snowbird in heavy snow. It wasn't clear to me if this is where you got the black toenails. If it is, FWIW, from what I hear from other people, heavy snow generates more black toenails than any other condition. This is because many people who normally ski just fine on a firm surface need to refine their technique in spring slop, and tend to do things like muscle their turns around from the back seat. Couple this with a loose fitting boot and instant black toenails.

[ May 15, 2002, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: PhysicsMan ]
post #3 of 22
chrisg

Welcome to Epicski,

Black toes almost every time is caused by poor fit and poor technique.

The squirrly tips sounds like either poor tune or being in the back seat. If you are new to shaped skis this may be part of the issue. Take a lesson or get evaluated by an instructor to see where your balance is and get your self to a good fitter to make sure your boots are holding you tightly in the heel pocket.
post #4 of 22
Chrisg:

Contact a ski shop and ask them about where the ski boot should be mounted for your skis and boot size. If they give you the measurement to the toe of the boot, then you can check that at home. With the boot in the binding, mark the center of the bootmark on the side of the ski and then measure the distance on the boot sole from this bootmark to the boot tioe. Transfer this masurment to the ski and check with what the shop gave you. Half chord measurment still works on a lot of skis. Stretch a tape from the tip and measure the distance tip to tail (tight tape, don't follow the ski profile). Divide this distance in half and check if this fits where the toe of your boot is now. If it is, then it is probably right.
post #5 of 22
Norefjell: Vita-Man is absolutely correct, and that is why I didn't open a discussion of do-it-yourself measurements and stopped with my recommendation that the guy take them in to a shop.

If person who asked the original question can't find/see the ski mfgr's recommended binding location mark (and know what it means - ie, toe vs boot-center), he should take them in to a shop.

Except for a very small number of special cases, using the mfgr's mounting mark is clearly the best method. The technical reason for this is that there many different "centers" on a ski relevant to fore-aft binding placement. These include chord center, running length center, center of mass, sidecut waist, etc. Ski mfgrs take into acct all of these factors in a way appropriate for the intended use of the particular ski to decide on a recommended binding location. In addition, mfgrs are doing all sorts of things to the tips and tails of modern skis that will make a simple chord length estimate quite inaccurate. These things include SL tips, turned up tails on TT's, sidecut continuing to expand past the front contact point, increased or decreased shovel height, etc..

Tom / PM
post #6 of 22
One other point to add:
Don't go by the ski's graphics!
If you are comparing one ski with the other based on a colour, or word in the graphics of the ski, this is inacurate. The only marks on skis which you can rely on are the mounting marks, which tend to be etched into the ski top or side, rather than just a graphic line.

S
post #7 of 22
Tom:

You have good comments. However, I felt that this person deserved a little help beyond that of go take lessons or go to a ski shop. My statement was that half chord still works on some of the skis. If I checked the toe placement based on this method and it matched, then I would probably conclude that it the bindings are mounted correctly. If it did not, then I would check it another way including talking with a ski shop. I think your statement about checking the mounting mark vs. the boot center mark is the advice he should have been given. Don't know why I forgot to tell him that. Not sure why you feel uneasy about explaining something like that concept to a novice. Nobody is giving this person advice as to how to mount bindings, just a quick measurement.
post #8 of 22
Hi Norefjell -

That was a good thoughtful, probing question & comment.

Fore-aft binding location is an issue that I have been concerned about for decades. I first started experimenting with binding location in the late '70's on old Moog bindings, where it was quite easy to move the boot fore and aft by at least an inch in either direction. Over the years, I've continued to experiment with this on newer skis and newer bindings such as the Xentrix series.

In spite of my strong interest in this subject, there were several reasons I didn't go down this road with ChrisG:

1) The cause of black toes in probably 99% of the cases is either subliminal fear or a technique problem that makes the skier lean back while skiing. Although the title he gave to this thread was about binding location, his *real* problem was black toes. I was trying to help him solve his real problem as quickly as possible (ie, without him having to chase down dead-end possibilities) by diplomatically steering him away from blaiming his bindings. DChan was much more direct than me about this. It was a judgement call on my part, but this is the real reason I didn't mention the mfgr's binding mark on the ski in my first message in this thread.

2) I didn't go down the path of do-it-yourself measurements not only for the reason stated above, but also because they simply don't help all that much these days.

On modern skis with properly located bindings, the probability of getting close agreement (say to within 1 cm) between a chord center measurement and his actual boot toe location is reasonably small for the reasons Vita-Man and I gave above. Knowing this, I didn't want him to be encouraged in his hypothesis by having him discover "an error" that really wasn't an error.

3) For exactly the same reasons, agreement in a do-it-yourself chord length measurement would also tell him nothing. One would have no idea if the agreement that was seen was fortuituous or not.

4) Finally, in my experience, it takes a gross error in binding location (ie, more than an inch off) before most recreational skiers (especially those on a new pair of boards like he was) will notice a fore-aft problem ABOVE differences in fore-aft flex distribution and sidecut between the old and new skis. Its pretty unlikely that a tech would make this large a mounting error without noticing it.

Anyway, there is my $0.02 worth of rationalization on the subject [img]smile.gif[/img]

Cheers,

Tom / PM

PS - BTW, I'm curious: What language is your screen name, Norefjell from? The prefix, "Nore", sounds a lot like Nord, norr, etc. in Swedish, Norwegan, Danish and Icelandic, but not exactly.
post #9 of 22
Thread Starter 
Thanks to PhysicsMan and everyone else. This is a lot more info than what I was expecting!

Some more background to address PhysicsMan's discussion about technique, etc.: although my technique is not perfect, I have skiied on probably 5 or so different kinds of shaped skis of roughly the same length (183-188 cm), with the same boots I've owned for several years, in all kinds of conditions, with no problems.

You are right--I did ski at Snowbird in heavy snow this April, and had the black toe problem, but I also rented skis on the same trip and like magic the problem went away. I would also mention that the first time I had the problem was the first time I skiied on these skis, in relatively easy conditions at Snowshoe, WV.

I think that with this info, you'd agree that this indicates the most likely problem are the skis and/or bindings.

Someone else directed me to this discussion about tuning the skis, which may also be contributing to the problem:
http://www.goski.com/gear/volkl/1volkl11.htm

Do you think that the shop tuning the skis a degree or so off, would contribute to the black toe problem?

Either way, I'll have to find a good place to tune my skis next time and specify to them what the specs call for (thx for the Ski Chalet recommendation). I'll also look for the mounting mark, to put that issue to rest.

Does anyone know what Volkl mounting marks look like? Can anyone supply pictures?

Thanks again everyone!
Chris
post #10 of 22
Tom:

You present some very logical reasoning for your responses and present clear arguments. Relative to my screen name, it is the name of a mountain and ski resort in Norway where I used to ski when I grew up. Did a lot of ski racing there in the 60's. That resort is now run by an old ski racing friend and it is unbelievable how much they have put into that place the last ten-fifteen years. I was there last summer and had a tour. Hope to ski there sometime when I go back during wintertime.
post #11 of 22
Hi ChrisG -

Thanks for the new info ... so it really was something about those particular skis and/or bindings.

1) Easy things first - binding marks on Volkls: My several year old Volkl Explosivs (fatty) have a long (~3 inches), very clear, white fore-aft arrow on the sidewall pointing towards the front of the ski. The tip of the arrowhead is where the boot toe should be mounted. There is printing near the arrow that says "boot toe" in German. OTOH, my newer (2000-2001) Volkl p40's only have a small black line (1 cm long by 1 mm wide) running transversely (L-R), printed on the topskin of the ski to indicate where boot center should be located. I don’t remember seeing any writing or any other indication of the purpose of this easy-to-miss line. This line can get covered up by many bindings, especially those with plates running from the toe to heel pieces. (That’s the case with my p40’s.) Quite a few modern boots have a similar small transverse line on their underside to mark "boot center". If the lines on the ski and boot match up, you are done.

2) Possible edge bevel problems: In the case of your experience in spring slop, I can say unambiguously that the edge bevel angles had absolutely nothing to do with the problem you experienced. In soft snow like you described at Snowbird, you probably could have pulled the edges off of the skis and not have noticed the difference. OTOH, obviously, on firm snow, the edges really matter.

3) Finally, black toes & ski instability:

The only thing that can give you black toes is if your toes are driven forcefully into the front of the toebox. Altho I could be wrong, I don't believe any ammt of toe curling, an excessively tight front buckle, etc. could do it without your toes being simultaneously forced into the front of the boot.

Clearly, its possible to have a temporary fit problem arise from things like removing the inner boot (eg, to dry) and it then deforms and/or does not reseat itself properly when you re-insert it in the shell. Something like this could push your toes into the front of the boot, but I'm going to assume that you checked for (or would have felt) obvious problems like this.

So, assuming it wasn't some simple but transient problem with the boot, given the geometry and stiffness of ski boots, pretty much the only way for toes to get jammed into the front of the toebox is by being levered forward due to sitting back. When this happens, the upper rear lip of your boot presses into the rear of your lower leg and the lower leg pivots foward, around this point.

Because of the above argument, I maintain that even if it was slight and you didn't realize it, you *must* have been sitting back for some reason, and the reason is probably exactly what you said, ie, you were uncomfortable with the performance of those particular skis in that type of snow (since you clearly stated that you don't have this problem on other skis). Sitting back in soft snow is also consistent with your complaint of TIP instability (ie, in contrast to a complaint like tails washing out).

Assuming the binding location is OK, my best bet is that its the skis themselves, namely, you are using a ski that is classified as groomed snow carver in crud, and you didn't like what you were feeling, so you reacted defensively.

Those skis probably are too soft, too narrow, and have too much sidecut for (a) spring slop, (b) the speeds you were going, and (c) your weight. As I recall, the entire Vectris line (v31, v21, etc.) is fairly soft compared to skis like Volkl’s g4 and Atomic’s 10ex which are stiff crud-busting specialists. Also, I think the shape of the Vectris series is something like 105/65/92, which is more shapely and *much* narrower at the waist than skis like the g4 and 10ex (i.e., around 117/84/109).

Now, someone may chime in and say, “you can use any shaped ski in crud if your technique is correct … they are all so much wider than straight skis, etc. etc.”. While this is true, having an appropriate ski for the conditions makes the demands on your technique soooo much less.

Finally, a bunch of questions / suggestions:

What are some of the other skis that you had no problems on?

Do you still own any of these other skis? If so, why don't you do a side by side comparison and flex them by hand and see how their stiffness compares with your Vectris. Take a ruler and measure the other skis at their tip, waist and tail. Construct a table showing forebody sidecut (i.e., tip minus waist in mm) and aft sidecut for each of your skis. How do the Vectris’ compare to the others?

BTW, exactly which model of Vectris do you have?

What do you weigh?

To be continued ...

Tom / PM

PS - Take a look at:

http://www.epinions.com/otdr-review-...38893505-prod3

It appears that this guy considers the v20 Vectris suitable only for intermediates or light experts and "a bit narrow for powder, lacks drive in the crud ... a bit intimidated in the crud", ie, along exactly the same lines as I was thinking.
post #12 of 22
Thread Starter 
PhysicsMan,

Thanks again for your relentless (obsessive?) pursuit of this topic--I guess I found the right guy for the job!

Let me take things in the order of your last post.

1) Mounting marks -- thanks for the info. I promise to take a look for them tonight finally!

2) Edge bevel -- what you say about it not mattering in soft spring snow makes sense. However, my first turns on these skis were at Snowshoe, WV, in ice and hard packed groomed runs (frequently that's all they have). That's where I first noticed the toe problem. I ski this mountain every season, and have used a few different skis there, with no problems.

3) Boot issues -- I appreciate your opinion about the boot, but humbly disagree with your diagnosis. The boots have been the most trouble-free part of my gear since I bought them years ago, and have never given me problems. I believe that the black toenails are due to toe curling, and not from the toes being wedged into the front of the boot. I have never experienced boot fit problems of any sort, while using several different skis.

However, I do agree that I was probably sitting back on the skis. At least, that's what it felt like. As much as I tried to get the tips into the snow, I couldn't maintain stability. I guess my question is: why am I sitting back on these skis (forcing me to curl my toes), while on other skis I don't, on the same hills?

Incidentally, my next trip (after Snowshoe) with these skis was to Whistler in January, where we had similar conditions as Snowbird. They hadn't had fresh snow in a while, and it was warm. So, although there were some good spots, and it was better than Snowbird, the snow was very soft generally. The toenails got a little worse during that trip, and I felt pretty unstable, but I stuck with the same skis for all 5 days, because I wanted to make them work. O well.

4) Ski shape - maybe you're right about the shape of the skis themselves. However, I rented some K2 X-15's a few years back (188cm I think, but maybe 183) and I thought they had the same characteristics. I *really* liked those skis and was looking to pick up something just like them. Hence the Volkls.

5) Your questions:
Skis I've had no problems with: how about all of them? I skiied on Dynamic VR-17's 185cm straight skis for several years before trying out rental shaped skis to see which ones I liked. There were several of these, including the K2 X-15's, Solomon XScream (heavy but great in crud), and the Rossi Bandit X 184's in Snowbird, which I liked a lot too. I wish I could remember the rest but I'm bad with remembering this kind of stuff (which is not too useful for these discussions, and if I ever have to decide to buy!).

What do I still own? Only the Dynamics, which are very flexible, probably more so than the Volkls.

Model of Volkl: Vectris Carver. Purchased new just prior to the 1999-00 season I believe, by the guy I got them from.

Weight: 175 lbs. Height: 5'9"

Tune in tomorrow!

Thanks again,
Chris
post #13 of 22
CalG
Something else to consider is if your boots are too big and/or are starting to pack out, you may now be starting to move in the boots some. This movement may cause "toe bang" Sitting back on your skis will make it worse. Curling your toes will usually cause cramping in the arches. If you are not cramping under foot, I would have to go with Tom/PM on the toes are being jammed. If the boot lenght is correct and the boots are packed out so you get some movement, you maybe banging your toes against the toe box and not realizing it. It's a fine line.
post #14 of 22
Thread Starter 
DChan,

Thanks for the suggestion. I assume what you mean by the boots getting "packed out" is that they are getting bigger inside from lots of use or normal wear. It makes sense that that would lead to my toes jamming against the toe of the boot.

Keep in mind however that I used the same boots with different skis and had no toe problems. This occurred during my trip to Snowbird, where I started with the Volkls then rented Rossis.

I don't think this toe problem is being caused by my boots. However, I am definitely starting to think about getting some new boots for next year, even though I really like my current ones.

Thanks anyway,
Chris
post #15 of 22
> Thanks again for your relentless (obsessive?)
> pursuit of this topic--I guess I found the
> right guy for the job!

Hey! Bulldog is my middle name and anyway, I resemble that remark [img]smile.gif[/img] .

> 1) Mounting marks -- thanks for the info. I
> promise to take a look for them tonight finally!

Great. I'm really curious to know what you find. Altho the probability of a major mounting error is low, it certainly still is possible. FWIW, Mark Elling even mentions a situation like this in his book, "The All-Mountain Skier: The Way to Expert Skiing".

> 2) Edge bevel -- what you say about it not
> mattering in soft spring snow makes sense.
> However, my first turns on these skis were at
> Snowshoe, WV, in ice and hard packed groomed
> runs...

Ahh, that's right, you did mention this earlier. I don't know what to say -- this stumps me. If bindings are mounted too far foward, people compensate more by immediately sitting in powder (to prevent the instantly obvious problem of tip-dive) compared to the same setup on hardpack, where you may not be in the sweet spot of the ski, but the worst that is going to happen is that the skis feel overly 'turny' and you might compensate by introducing extra rotary input.

> 3) Boot issues -- I appreciate your opinion
> about the boot, but humbly disagree with your
> diagnosis. The boots have been the most
> trouble-free part of my gear since I bought
> them years ago, and have never given me
> problems. I believe that the black toenails
> are due to toe curling, and not from the toes
> being wedged into the front of the boot...

Could be. That's why I hedged my bets and said, "Altho I could be wrong, I don't believe any ammt of toe curling...". Feet and toes come in a wide variety of shapes and sizes so what happens to me may not happen to you.

> However, I do agree that I was probably sitting
> back on the skis. At least, that's what it
> felt like. As much as I tried to get the tips
> into the snow, I couldn't maintain stability.
> I guess my question is: why am I sitting back
> on these skis (forcing me to curl my toes),
> while on other skis I don't, on the same hills?

That's the $64 question!

BTW, just so you don't feel lonely, I'm sporting a black toe as well, and I know that all it took was just one emergency stop in spring slop.

> ...snip...

Gotta run. Keep me posted.

Tom / PM
post #16 of 22
Thread Starter 
Time to put the binding issue to rest.

I just checked the skis for mounting marks, and it looks like the bindings are mounted correctly. There's a small but distinct vertical etch marking on the side of the ski next to where the ski length and serial number is etched in. It lines up perfectly with the center marker on my boot, after I snap in. There goes that theory.

If I am reading all the advice correctly, I have these options:
1. Get new boots that fit better.
2. Ski better.
3. Monkey with the edge bevel.
4. Get new skis.

As I've mentioned previously, options #1 and #2 are unsatifying to me, since I skiied on different skis with the same boots and had a great time at Snowbird, on terrain that was very challenging to me. I'll be the first to admit that I am certainly no expert, but this kind of difference where the only thing I changed was the ski/ binding indicates there's something about the Volkl ski/ binding that just doesn't agree with me.

So, I am left with monkeying with the edge bevel, or go out and buy a set of skis that I know I like (Rossi Bandit X or K2 X-15).

Thanks again PM, DChen and everyone else. If anyone has any other suggestions, or if I've missed an option, please let me know.

See ya,
Chris
post #17 of 22
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisg:
DChan,

Thanks for the suggestion. I assume what you mean by the boots getting "packed out" is that they are getting bigger inside from lots of use or normal wear. It makes sense that that would lead to my toes jamming against the toe of the boot.

Keep in mind however that I used the same boots with different skis and had no toe problems. This occurred during my trip to Snowbird, where I started with the Volkls then rented Rossis.

I don't think this toe problem is being caused by my boots. However, I am definitely starting to think about getting some new boots for next year, even though I really like my current ones.

Thanks anyway,
Chris
It's quite possible that it is due to a number of things coming together at the same time. Poor/loose fit in boots in combination with a ski you don't feel like you have control over, (poor edges or tune) causing you to "sit back" thus jamming your toes into the toebox. Any number of things might fix this. Better fit on boot may resolve the problem, correcting balance so you are centered on the ski, or another ski that gives you the confidence to "throw yourself down the hill" and stay centered on the ski. A better fit may also keep you from getting black toes but would not fix the sitting back or feel of loss of control due to a bad tune. Better skis or better tuned skis or even just fatter skis might fix the problem by giving you the confidence to not sit back in powder/spring slop. A lesson might also fix the problem by giving you a some cues to keep you from sitting back. Good luck.
post #18 of 22
Oh well, Chris, it was a very reasonable hypothesis.

DChan, those were good solid suggestions. My own thoughts and suggestions are essentially just an elaboration of yours.

Chris, here's what I'd do if I were in your boots [img]smile.gif[/img] :

1) First, don't buy or sell anything immediately (unless you can't help yourself, in which case, you're forgiven ).

2) Over the summer, go to a ski shop with your skis and boots and, as I suggested earlier, get them to look over the equipment. Then spend the $200 - $300 or whatever it costs to get them to do a full stance evaluation / alignment / footbed for you. This should include not only transverse angles (eg, cant and cuff angle), but, most importantly to this problem, fore-aft angles like ramp, delta, and forward lean. If your liners are packing out, they may be able to pad it a bit, or if too worn, fit you up with a new pair of Zipfit or other liners.

This investment will be well worth the money and be appropriate for any set of skis you wind up with.

BTW, since you are in the DC area, I'd recommend "The Ski Center" in NW over my previous recommendation (Ski Challet) if you are going to go the full stance evaluation / alignment / footbed / new liner route.

3) Come next winter, get familiar with skiing on your newly adjusted boots for a few days, and then spring for a private lesson. Call ahead, describe your problem in detail, and demand an L-II cert instructor (or better) and someone who really knows equipment. In addition to getting his advice, ask him to shoot some video of you (for you to keep and maybe post here for evaluation).

4) If all this effort doesn't help with the problem, put the blankety-blank skis on e-bay, do a new round of demo'ing and treat yourself to a new pair.

Don't forget to keep us posted. Geeks love techno-mysteries like this.

Cheers,

Tom / PM
post #19 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by PhysicsMan:

1) First, don't buy or sell anything immediately (unless you can't help yourself, in which case, you're forgiven ).
I may not be able to stay away from eBay...

Quote:
Originally posted by PhysicsMan:

2) Over the summer, go to a ski shop with your skis and boots and, as I suggested earlier, get them to look over the equipment. Then spend the $200 - $300 or whatever it costs to get them to do a full stance evaluation / alignment / footbed for you. This should include not only transverse angles (eg, cant and cuff angle), but, most importantly to this problem, fore-aft angles like ramp, delta, and forward lean. If your liners are packing out, they may be able to pad it a bit, or if too worn, fit you up with a new pair of Zipfit or other liners.
Thanks again for the detailed help, PM.

Some questions about this stuff that I've never heard of before:
</font>
  • Will the tech who completes this routine adjust the boots, bindings, and/ or skis?
    </font>
  • Will any of those adjustments address the edge bevel issue? If not, how should I adjust the edge bevel? Just ask them to go with the factory specs?

    </font>
  • Is this all in order to correct the bad tune and balance problem, that dchan mentioned in his last post? (thx to dchan also)

    </font>
  • Do you suggest doing this each time you purchase a new set of gear? As in, if I buy another set of skis off eBay, should I go through with this? What about if I get new skis and new boots?

    </font>
  • If I decide to get new boots, what kind of measurements should I get, so I can get the right ones?

    </font>
  • Where can I find out more about all these adjustments and measurements you're suggesting?
    </font>
Quote:
Originally posted by PhysicsMan:
...ask him to shoot some video of you (for you to keep and maybe post here for evaluation).
That'll certainly be entertaining for everyone.

Quote:
Originally posted by PhysicsMan:
Don't forget to keep us posted. Geeks love techno-mysteries like this.
You don't say?

I'll keep you up to date, although we may not get moving on this for a while. I'm not sure when I'll be in the DC area again--I live about 2 hours south, in Charlottesville.

Feeling like a rookie again...
Chris
post #20 of 22
Chris,

There is a process called shell sizing.
tips

I think the 3CM listed in this tip however is a little large. Most fitters say 1/2" for an expert/racer, 3/4" for general recreational.

so 1-2 CM.

or use a gauge to measure the space between your heel and the shell. Micro Mag (AAA 2 cell) and use the light/head end for a recreational fit. tail end for a race fit.

DAve
post #21 of 22
ChrisG -

> Will the tech who completes this routine adjust
> the boots, bindings, and/ or skis?


The person you should have to do the stance evaluation and then adjust the boots, possibly make a footbed, etc is a true specialist (sometimes called a master bootfitter), and is rarely the same person as the ski tech who mounts bindings, runs skis through stone grinding machines, does p-tex and waxing work, etc. Finding a good bootfitter can be difficult exactly because it looks so easy. DChan and other people on this board can give you a lot of info on this. There are links to a list of master bootfitters and a boot fitting guide here:

http://www.epicski.com/Content/SkiAn...ndBootHome.htm

> Will any of those adjustments address the edge
> bevel issue? If not, how should I adjust the
> edge bevel? Just ask them to go with the
> factory specs?


Boot adjustments are almost completely independent of optimal edge bevel angles. Both have to be correct to ski well. I really don't think your problem is due to inappropriate bevel angles (or sharpness). However, even if this were a factor, my advice would still be: "Don't change too many things at once." In other words, when you take the skis in for the inspection, you can have them sharpen the edges, but stick with the factory bevel angles until after you get all the boot stuff done and have had an equipment-savy instructor comment on this issue (and your technique, in general).

> Is this all in order to correct the bad tune
> and balance problem, that dchan mentioned in
> his last post? (thx to dchan also)


Yes.

> Do you suggest doing this each time you
> purchase a new set of gear? As in, if I buy
> another set of skis off eBay, should I go
> through with this? What about if I get new
> skis and new boots?


If you buy used skis, you should take a true-bar (just an accurate straightedge) to them to make sure the bases are not seriously concave or convex. You should also inspect the bases and edges visually for damage and edge sharpness. Most serious skiers eventually buy a little edge sharpening tool (ie, holds a file at the correct angle) to do minor edge sharpening. You might want to consider doing the same. If everything is OK, I would then have the bindings mounted and see how they feel on the snow. OTOH, if they came with bindings mounted, *definitely* take them in and, at min, have the shop do a binding check. On the subject of bindings, if you are considering buying used skis with bindings mounted, before you do so, you really should familiarize yourself with the binding indemnification list (maybe somebody can post a link) so that you aren't stuck with a pair of bindings that no one will work on.

With respect to boots, DON'T go cheap and/or buy them used. First, have a stance and foot evaluation done by a master bootfitter, and then let him recommend appropriate models.

> If I decide to get new boots, what kind of
> measurements should I get, so I can get the
> right ones?


Don't do it yourself. Get a maser bootfitter to make recommendations after he sees you.

> Where can I find out more about all these
> adjustments and measurements you're suggesting?


There have been a huge number of posts on these topics right here on epicski.com, but I believe the search engine is temporarily down until the next software upgrade. Again, maybe someone will remember when these discussions occurred and post a suitable link. Three other excellent sources are the books:

1) The Athletic Skier
http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/...294445-6415127

2) Anyone Can Be an Expert Skier by H. Harb (vols 1 & 2),
http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/gla...harald%20harb& nsp=hotbox%01hotstore&sz=50&pg=1/4/8/qid=1022106871/ZS=1-4/104-8294445-6415127

and 3)

The Skier's Edge by Ron Lemaster
http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/gla...2501open%2502k eywords%2501Ron%2520LeMaster%26nsp%3Dhotbox%2501ho tstore%26sz%3D50%26pg%3D1/0/1/qid%3D1022107054/sr%3D1-/104-8294445-6415127/104-8294445-6415127

Cheers,

Tom / PM
post #22 of 22
My o my. I love to ski but damn you guys sure wrote a lot.

The real question here is: Have they found your ski yet Chris?

I am a friend of Chris and will be totally willing to shoot the video next year.

Also, I can not say enough good things about the Washington Ski Center. I went there to have my boots looked at before we went on the Snowbird trip and I was so stoked to find out that I could ski more than one run without having to unbuckle my boots. This have never happened before. The guys at that shop are awesome. And, they totally fitted my boots for free. But, I do buy all my gear there and they have a guaruntee on how your boots fit and will work with you to make it right.

In my case I went with a custome foot bed, they have a few to chose from. I also had my boots streched out. I am cursed with platapus feet.

Moral of the story, go to Washington Ski Center. They know what they're doing and guaruntee that you get a great fit.

Cheers,

Sean
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Gear Discussion