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Hit and Run From Behind - Page 7

post #181 of 186
Skiingman thinks he is going to win arguments by belittling what others say (or just belittling others). I suspect he just likes to argue. He sure does post a lot.
post #182 of 186
Originally Posted by ant
Skiingman thinks he is going to win arguments by belittling what others say (or just belittling others). I suspect he just likes to argue. He sure does post a lot.
I belittle Confused on that one. I was completely serious about changing where you stand. If you don't feel safe at work, something is wrong. It isn't about something you are doing wrong, its about other people not respecting the skier code and general common sense. Obviously you can't always be looking uphill, and I understand that its not an easy thing to protect yourself from. I hope for your sake that you find a way to increase your level of comfort and safety.

The rest of your post is pretty true, 'cept the posting a lot. 100 posts a day is a lot. If my posts annoy you, I welcome you to use the ignore feature that the people at Jelsoft have kindly included.

I'd like to note that after I started whining too, there have been far more posts about how to fix this problem and less about punching snowboarders in the face. So even though I'm a real jerk (not gonna claim I'm not) I think the results have been pretty good.

Suggestions that really have caught my eye so far:
-Videotape of liftline areas
-Added enforcement in same.
-Amnesty for people that hit someone, then stop and help.

All of which are more effective and intelligent than:
-Punching offenders in the face

I think being a vigilante and chasing people down is a bad idea as well. Why? A couple reasons:

-Who are you to say that you can catch up with them in a safe manner? After all, you are angry because they are skiing irresponsibly. So if you see someone get hit, how do you decide whether or not you are putting yourself and more importantly others in danger when you are "chasing down" the offender? The human psychology involved here is why many people are killed each year by law enforcement officers chasing people for petty violations.
-If the incident was serious, and the person involved really doesn't want to be held accountable, how do you know that you'll be able to safely deal with their reaction? Having a CCW on you is a bad idea at a ski area, in my book anyway.

Anyways, try not to let a punk on the internet boil your blood too much. Catbutt is on the right track.
post #183 of 186
Originally Posted by Colossus178
Here's the solution (or at least a rough draft): treat skiing like driving, with criminal penalties for reckless skiing. When a person is convicted of dangerous skiing, they have their skiing priveledges revoked. If they're caught skiing while under suspension, they face criminal charges.

To make this scheme work, a workable skiing code of conduct would have to be created. Obviously, if someone collides with another skier/boarder while intentionally skiing too close (as in the case of PhysicsMan), or if someone is seriously injured (as in the case of Claudia Karbone), it's cut and dried: clearly, the guilty party was skiing/boarding recklessly. There would be other cases that weren't so clear, as in the example given by someone who noted that they've been cursed for skiing within ten feet of a timid skier. There would have to be some mechanism for settling disputes between fast, aggressive skiers/boarders and those who think anything but sedate cruising is wild and crazy.

There needs to be a mechanism that holds responsible those who behave recklessly. Trying to make the ski resorts responsible for reckless behaviour only punishes you and me, by driving up the cost of skiing. Revoking the skiing/boarding priveledges of those who put others at risk, and punishing them with criminal charges if they disregard this penalty, would go a long way towards making people behave more responsibly.

It's interesting as far as you take it but what about enforcement? You only address this by saying the resorts shouldn't be responsible. Who then?
post #184 of 186
Originally Posted by jlb
They're downhill of you, you hit them = your fault, period. No ifs, ands or buts. Ski within your abilities and take a lesson on speed.
What if the downhill person stops in a place where they cannot be seen from above and in the flow of traffic?
post #185 of 186
Originally Posted by lshull
What if the downhill person stops in a place where they cannot be seen from above and in the flow of traffic?
They are a dumb/igonorant/irresonsible, but the uphill rider still has the obligation not to overski their site distance.

Rephrase the question to What if the downhill person takes a fall where they cannot be seen from above and in the flow of traffic.....

Wait, if you take a fall, then you must have been skiing out of control... The argument goes circular....

Nothing written in stone I 'spose.
post #186 of 186
I think that everybody participating in this discussion is in agreement that people should not (if at all possible - ie, they haven't fallen) stop in the middle of the trail, should ski predictably in a lane, etc., but my sense is that this is not what this section of this thread is about. My sense is that it is more from the perspective of a better skier who has good control of speed and line, and what choices they should make.

Originally Posted by lshull
What if the downhill person stops in a place where they cannot be seen from above and in the flow of traffic?
This is probably preaching to the choir, but a stopped, downhill person can almost always be seen from above, even if it is only a moment before impact. The question is, "will you see them in enough time to avoid them?". Excepting jumps (where you can't change your trajectory after launch), if you are going really fast, you may not have enough time to react and avoid someone stopped around a blind corner. If you are going really slow, the corner will not be "blind", and you will almost always have plenty of time to avoid them. At an intermediate speed, you may or may not be able to avoid the stopped skier because of differences in skiing ability, snow conditions, other traffic, width of the trail, etc.

So, I think it comes back to the common-sense understanding of skiing that you should not be going faster than your ability to stop given the high probability that someone ahead of you will do something unpredictable. The choice of appropriate speed can't be stated in a formula or mandated by some arbitrary rule because of the constantly shifting geometry and density of people ahead of you.

When the mountain isn't crowded, yes, there is a lower probability of someone stopped around a corner, but there still is a chance that someone will be there, right in the middle of the trail. So, when your sight range is limited and "the mountain is empty", you have to make the judgement about how you will feel if you come blazing around a corner and to discover that some little kid has just fallen and is right in your path, with his parents stopped a hundred feet further down the trail.

Courtesy and caring about the safety and feelings of others should tell every skier to err on the side of caution and be constantly evaluating their surroundings and be constantly adjusting their speed accordingly, but unfortunately, this is not the case with many arrogant / ignorant skiers. The first category will think, "He shouldn't have stopped right in front of me", or, "What's he complaining about, I knew I wasn't going to hit him". The second category will think, "Gee, I never expected him to stop right in front of me".

I often will "open it up" for 30 sec when I see a patch of skier-free slope in front of me, and then slow right back down as I approach an area of higher skier density. If this stop-go type of skiing gets on my nerves and I want to "open it up" for more than 30 sec at a time, I'll go early or stay late when there are fewer people on the mountain. If someone really wants to seriously "open it up", they should consider racing, where closed courses would be available.

Tom / PM
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