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Your top pick car for skiing? - Page 7

post #181 of 437
Currently - Chev. Avalanche. '02 Z-71. Previous rides, 2 @ Subaru Outbacks, Nissan Pathfinders, Ford F-25O, and 8 various VWs and 2 Porsche 911s. The AV is one of the biggest, heaviest rig I've owned yet. I needed a rig that would haul full sheets of plywood in covered area, pull a kayak trailer, haul 5 adults and all their ski or kayak gear. Any of the crew cab full size pickups were MUCH TOO LONG the Avalanche fit the bill for me. Son and I can even sleep in it if we want quick overnighter to Whistler, Baker, etc...I've done some tweaking and tuning on the 5.3l engine and am at 350hp now, getting avg. of close to 20 mpg (best 19.8) on freeway at 80mph. I've got BFG AT tires, rated one of the top snow AT tires made, never slip, rarely go to 4 wheel, unless in 4 " or more fresh unplowed. Last year traveled to and skied, Whistler, Fernie, Big Mtn, Red, Big Sky, Bridger, Jackson, Alta, Snowbird, Snow Basin, Canyons, PC, Bachelor, Squaw, Kirkwood, Alpine, Bachelor, Hood and all local areas in my AV, many times chasing and driving in some nice dumping storms. The 4X PIAA lights are awesome for driving between areas at night, leather heated seats warm the back and buns.. If I'm running up to the Pass with just one other person or myself for some quick turns after work I'll borrow my wife's Outback.

As a skier, did I buy it for the name??? NO, but it is a coincidence that I'm an expropatrolman, having done much AV work and now drive one! :-)

Anyway, my 2 cents!

Where's our snow here in the PNW????????????? Turns next week??????
post #182 of 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
And what makes you think there is a problem if a wheel lifts?
Torsen diffs do not transfer torque when one of the drive wheels is off the ground....or on a very low traction surface.
-Garrett

Quote:
Originally Posted by howstuffworks.com


The Torsen differential* is a purely mechanical device; it has no electronics, clutches or viscous fluids.

The Torsen (from Torque Sensing) works as an pen differential when the amount of torque going to each wheel is equal. As soon as one wheel starts to lose traction, the difference in torque causes the gears in the Torsen differential to bind together. The design of the gears in the differential determines the torque bias ratio. For instance, if a particular Torsen differential is designed with a 5:1 bias ratio, it is capable of applying up to five times more torque to the wheel that has good traction.

These devices are often used in high-performance all-wheel-drive vehicles. Like the viscous coupling, they are often used to transfer power between the front and rear wheels. In this application, the Torsen is superior to the viscous coupling because it transfers torque to the stable wheels before the actual slipping occurs. However, if one set of wheels loses traction completely, the Torsen differential will be unable to supply any torque to the other set of wheels. The bias ratio determines how much torque can be transferred, and five times zero is zero.



The Torsen differential* is a purely mechanical device; it has no electronics, clutches or viscous fluids.

The Torsen (from Torque Sensing) works as an open differential when the amount of torque going to each wheel is equal. As soon as one wheel starts to lose traction, the difference in torque causes the gears in the Torsen differential to bind together. The design of the gears in the differential determines the torque bias ratio. For instance, if a particular Torsen differential is designed with a 5:1 bias ratio, it is capable of applying up to five times more torque to the wheel that has good traction.

These devices are often used in high-performance all-wheel-drive vehicles. Like the viscous coupling, they are often used to transfer power between the front and rear wheels. In this application, the Torsen is superior to the viscous coupling because it transfers torque to the stable wheels before the actual slipping occurs. However, if one set of wheels loses traction completely, the Torsen differential will be unable to supply any torque to the other set of wheels. The bias ratio determines how much torque can be transferred, and five times zero is zero.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential10.htm
post #183 of 437
I think his "How Stuff works" defintion is old because in a Quattro system with Torsen the car can be driven by one wheel.

I will find this information and forward it to you!

Best Regrds

A-man!
post #184 of 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
I think his "How Stuff works" defintion is old because in a Quattro system with Torsen the car can be driven by one wheel.

I will find this information and forward it to you!

Best Regrds

A-man!
Which is achieved, as a kludge, by applying brakes via the ABS/EBD system.

The torsen differential itself still has the limitation.

However, you should take a junk one apart sometime. Its like taking a clock apart. Fun stuff. Not fun if you have to reassemble it.
-Garrett
post #185 of 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by audi's site
If one of the wheels on an axle loses grip and starts spinning, propulsive power has to be diverted to the other wheel by this axle’s differential. This used to take place by means of a mechanical differential lock. Now the Electronic Differential Lock is used. This transfers the excess power of the spinning wheel to the other wheels with better traction. If on an Audi with quattro drive both wheels on an axle start spinning, the continuously controlled locking of the centre differential makes sure that most of the torque is transmitted to the other axle. In this way, propulsion is guaranteed in (almost) all situations.
Marketing hype for a kludge that replaces expensive mechanical systems.

The South African site is a little bit less BS, a little closer to the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audi SA
The electronic differential lock (EDL) permits smooth, comfortable starts on road surfaces that do not have a uniform coefficient of friction. If a wheel starts to spin, EDL brakes it as necessary so that power is transmitted to the wheel with the better traction. EDL reduces tyre wear and works up to about. 40 km/h (quattro®: up to about 80 km/h). EDL is part of the electronic stabilization program (ESP) and the traction control (ASR).
Everything you wanna know about the history of quattro at this site:

Quote:
The electronic differential lock (EDL) employed by VAG is not - as the name suggests - a differential lock at all. Sensors monitor wheel speeds, and if one is rotating substantially faster than the other (i.e. slipping) the EDL system momentarily brakes it. This effectively transfers all the power to the other wheel.
post #186 of 437
Anyone tried a Ford Freestyle yet? Looks like a pretty functional ski car. Same AWD system as Volvo uses, 27 MPG, big time space, reasonable price.
post #187 of 437
From Autoworld Magazine: 5th paragraph


THE QUATTRO SYSTEM



AUBURN HILLS, Mich.-For many people the words Audi and quattro are inseparable. This has been the case since 1982 when the first all-wheel drive Audi quattro was introduced to the North American markets. Now called the Ur-quattro (original quattro) by the enthusiasts who still covet these cars, the vehicle. set about rewriting the rule book on high-performance automobiles. On the road, quattro brought all-season capability to a class of cars that were previously a fair-weather indulgence. On the race track, quattro proved time and again that all-wheel drive traction could beat the unharnessed horsepower of rear-wheel drive competitors--in fair weather and foul.

A brief recounting of Audi's quattro racing success would include the 1983 World Rally Driver's Championship, the Driver's and Manufacturers Championships in 1984, the 1987 Safari Rally in Kenya, and the U.S. Pikes Peak Hill Climb Championships in 1985, 1986 and 1987. In 1988, the production-car based Audi 200 quattros swept the Trans-Am championship for both drivers and manufacturers against purpose-built race cars, while the Audi V8 quattros took the German Touring Car Championship in 1990 and 1991. Proving its merit once again in 1996, in all seven countries where Audi lined up on the grid (Germany, Great Britain, Italy, Australia, Belgium, South Africa and Spain), it won the Super Touring Car title with the Audi A4 quattro. They even enjoyed a one-two finish in the Touring Car Grand Prix to complete the 1996 season. So successful, in fact, has been the quattro system that from 1998 onwards, the World Motor Sport Association (FIA) has forbidden four-wheel drive in their events as an "unfair advantage.

Now entering its eighteenth year on the roads of North America, quattro continues to set new standards--in active safety and all-weather performance. Quattro is a full-time all-wheel drive system that- is constantly at work putting power to the pavement through all four wheels. Available from Audi's all-aluminum luxury flagship, the A8 4.2, to the affordable A4 1.8 T sports sedan, quattro is a proven concept, not a rarity. It is accessible, not exotic. And most of all, it brings a sense of control and security to the driver like nothing else.

Audi's experience with all-wheel drive results in the fourth generation of the quattro, system at a time when other companies are still on square one. The key to quattro has always been to vary power distribution to all four wheels, all of the time, at any speed. The latest addition is Electronic Differential Locking (EDL) which operates on both the front and rear differentials. This feature detects and limits wheel spin and redistributes the drive torque from side-to-side to take advantage of available traction. This traction enhancing overlay to quattro's basic strength operates automatically and unobtrusively at speeds up to 45 miles per hour. Combined with the front-to-rear power distribution capability of the TORSENV (TORque SENsing) center differential that distributes up to 66 percent of the traction to whichever axle has the most traction.

The fourth generation of quattro is so capable that a single wheel with reasonable traction is sufficient to get the car underway.

Many manufacturers are beginning to offer some form of all-wheel drive in their vehicles because they recognize the inherent benefits of it, a conclusion which Audi reached long ago. Audi's quattro tradition enables its technology to be generally more efficient in terms of packaging when compared to other all-wheel drive systems. Specifically, these advantages include no ride height penalty, less added weight, less extra space required for the system, and lower parasitic drag than other all-wheel drive systems. All of this is made possible by the basic drivetrain configuration and the design of the quattro system.

Compared to the "disabling" technology of some traction control systems-where engine power is reduced until wheel spin is under control-quattro is an "enabling" technology. The traction seeking capability of quattro, reads the road, putting the power to the pavement and reducing wheel spin even as it begins.

In recent years the addition of models with automatic transmissions and the *TORSEN is a registered trademark of ZEXEL-GLEASON USA, INC. change to a stand-alone option policy have made quattro accessible to an ever wider range of Audi owners. For 1998 through August, over 80 percent of all Audis sold in the U.S., and more than 90 percent in Canada, were equipped with the quattro all-wheel drive system.

Among luxury car manufacturers, only Audi offers the incomparable quattro allwheel drive system.


Copyright © 1985-2001 Auto World / VIS. All rights reserved. *Values are subjective opinions based on the Staff of NABA / VIS and recent market conditions. National Automobile Bankers Associates / Vehicle Information Services is not responsible for actual or claimed deviation. Copyright 2001 NABA/VIS. Auto World a service of VIS. 561-394-0610.
post #188 of 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman
The fourth generation of quattro is so capable that a single wheel with reasonable traction is sufficient to get the car underway.
Good enough to get you underway. Doesn't sound very impressive to me.

Its a cost effective solution with great marketing panache. It is not, however, tremendously capable or impressive in any way.

In fact, I'm not sure just what you can do with it that you can't do (with due care) in a Civic with good rubber. Actually, that is a lie. Axial donuts. Axial donuts are fun. I enjoyed some in the Jeep this evening.

At 60mph, your omnipotent Quattro is just an understeering pig.
-Garrett
post #189 of 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman
Good enough to get you underway. Doesn't sound very impressive to me.

Its a cost effective solution with great marketing panache. It is not, however, tremendously capable or impressive in any way.

In fact, I'm not sure just what you can do with it that you can't do (with due care) in a Civic with good rubber. Actually, that is a lie. Axial donuts. Axial donuts are fun. I enjoyed some in the Jeep this evening.

At 60mph, your omnipotent Quattro is just an understeering pig.
-Garrett
Garrett, Your full of it!
post #190 of 437
Yes, yes I am.

In what way do you mean?
-Garrett
post #191 of 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman
Yes, yes I am.

In what way do you mean?
-Garrett
BS!!!!!!
post #192 of 437
- At 60mph, your omnipotent Quattro is just an understeering pig.

Can't stand it any longer - I've got to respond hahahaha...

Conjecture. Understeers compared to? It doesn't handle as well as an M3 or a Vette, or a 911 and anything in that league (which would be a poor comparision anyways) but it it's right on par, (BMW 3 series) if not better, than any other *AWD* in it's class.

I'd rather have the confidence of AWD over a FWD or RWD car in the snow any day. In fact, this is the precise reason I drive an AWD car - I can't bring myself to go back to a 2WD vehicle with the amount of time I spend driving in the deep stuff; some of the storms we get it can be a while before the trucks make it to my road to plow. I pass the 2WD cars parked at the bottom of my hill, driving alongside the footprints going up.

I do driver's schools and this like during the spring/summer/fall and I'd love to have an M3 or old school 911, something that is better suited to spirited driving but frankly the Audi is the most practical compromise of both worlds - having summer fun with the car and an effective winter driver. Just put snows on it.

I'm not out to convice anyone of my viewpoint but a 2WD car in the vermont winter is not even a consideration, IMO.
post #193 of 437
This topic brings out the worst in everyone. It's too personal. Everyone thinks they know best (myself included), and we are all to eager to share our "expertise" ... if you get to the mountain, are comfortable doing so, and can make your payments ... then your car is the best.
post #194 of 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate Crasher
- At 60mph, your omnipotent Quattro is just an understeering pig.

Can't stand it any longer - I've got to respond hahahaha...

Conjecture. Understeers compared to? It doesn't handle as well as an M3 or a Vette, or a 911 and anything in that league (which would be a poor comparision anyways) but it it's right on par, (BMW 3 series) if not better, than any other *AWD* in it's class.

I'd rather have the confidence of AWD over a FWD or RWD car in the snow any day. In fact, this is the precise reason I drive an AWD car - I can't bring myself to go back to a 2WD vehicle with the amount of time I spend driving in the deep stuff; some of the storms we get it can be a while before the trucks make it to my road to plow. I pass the 2WD cars parked at the bottom of my hill, driving alongside the footprints going up.

I do driver's schools and this like during the spring/summer/fall and I'd love to have an M3 or old school 911, something that is better suited to spirited driving but frankly the Audi is the most practical compromise of both worlds - having summer fun with the car and an effective winter driver. Just put snows on it.

I'm not out to convice anyone of my viewpoint but a 2WD car in the vermont winter is not even a consideration, IMO.
Gate Crasher, Thanks!

Rotofury, I agree with 100%. I was not saying Audi is the best of anything, but comparing a Quatto to a Honda Civic with "Good Rubber" is ridiculous, as is the notion RWD or FWD is better than AWD or 4 wheel drive, Ridiculous IMHO, and I have had all of the different drives at one time or another with & without snow tires all season and the like.

I'll happily keep driving my Quattro past all the other stuckees!
post #195 of 437
I thought this was a "what would your ultimate ski car be" thread...you know for fun. Not a why subaru's are best thread or who knows the most about subes. Jeeez. Next topic :
post #196 of 437
I threw my vote for my Subie Forester because it is MY ultimate card. But as said above part of why it works for me is I can afford it and afford to run it. Ultimately that's what matters.

If I was on someone else's nickel I would love a volvo XC70 or the new audi beefed up wagon sort of almost SUV thing. I haven't driven either one but suspect they would both be sweet rides for what I do. Not going to argue it with anyone though and also not going to fork out for either of those rides at this point.
post #197 of 437
The 4motion System in the VW passat is the exact same system as the quattro system.

I don't know about eveyone else but in California they won't let you over the summit in a storm unless you have AWD or 4wd. That is why I really see the need for AWD for myself.

AWD does pose some problems. They don't stop nearly as well as 2wd becasue of the heavier AWD system. All other factors even.

However, like in a previous post I am still going for the Audi A8L Quattro.

Killer car with smooth lines and a lot of room for more friends and there gear.

Cheers!
post #198 of 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman
That ain't the reason why they are in the ditch.
heh, yeah. No matter how many wheels you have driving, you still only have 4 to stop and 2 to turn with.
post #199 of 437
Just since his work (from 1958) has been discussed this is from this weeks AutoWeek

"Vernon Gleasman, inventor of the Torsen differential, died Nov. 18 at the age of 92."
post #200 of 437
Atomicman, did you consider be Audiman? just kidding, just kidding.
how about simple and reliable 4Runner?
good on snow, excellent offroad etc etc.
post #201 of 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by igorig
Atomicman, did you consider be Audiman? just kidding, just kidding.
how about simple and reliable 4Runner?
good on snow, excellent offroad etc etc.
I have thought about it, actually started out as Volklman! Switched to Atomicman in 2000
post #202 of 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate Crasher
I'm not out to convice anyone of my viewpoint but a 2WD car in the vermont winter is not even a consideration, IMO.
Hahaha.

You weren't born in VT, were you?

Pragmaticskier: The Torsen diff is truly a beautiful thing. Too bad Quattro doesn't use them where it should.
-Garrett
post #203 of 437
All these BMWs, Volvos, Land Rovers, Range Rovers, VWs, Audis, etc, arent even heavy duty vehicles.

The most widely used and respected 4x4 in the world is the Toyota Land Cruiser. With traction control and descent tires you cant even spin the dang thing out. It is the ultimate ski car.

If you need smaller go for a 4runner. Any year.

MM
post #204 of 437
For snow - A car with AWD (audi, volvo, subaru etc) and snow tires will beat up on a regular 4wd any day - even a Landcruiser or a 4runner....the fact that an AWD car has an open center differential allows it to deal with slippage alot better than a static, traditional truck 4wd system -

now the Landcruisers, and other SUVs (almost all the new ones) that are equipped with AWD will be good too - but still an AWD car remains the better choice becuase of their lower center of gravity.

The only time you really need a truck in snow - is when you are dealing with deep enough snow that an AWD cars ground clearance becomes an issue - or if you are in some REAL hairy stuff and a locking front or rear diff (ala landcruiser, most landrovers) can get you out of most anything.

Otherwise no need to buy a truck to drive in the snow - youll just be wasting money on gas.


BTW I own a Tacoma and love it
post #205 of 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by godwinaustin
For snow - A car with AWD (audi, volvo, subaru etc) and snow tires will beat up on a regular 4wd any day - even a Landcruiser or a 4runner....the fact that an AWD car has an open center differential allows it to deal with slippage alot better than a static, traditional truck 4wd system -

now the Landcruisers, and other SUVs (almost all the new ones) that are equipped with AWD will be good too - but still an AWD car remains the better choice becuase of their lower center of gravity.

The only time you really need a truck in snow - is when you are dealing with deep enough snow that an AWD cars ground clearance becomes an issue - or if you are in some REAL hairy stuff and a locking front or rear diff (ala landcruiser, most landrovers) can get you out of most anything.

Otherwise no need to buy a truck to drive in the snow - youll just be wasting money on gas.


BTW I own a Tacoma and love it
Excellent!

Of course if you have an allroad or a Touareg they have 4 pOsItion adjustable suspension for those "DEEPER" DAYS
post #206 of 437

Audi's experience with all-wheel drive results in the fourth generation of the quattro, system at a time when other companies are still on square one. The key to quattro has always been to vary power distribution to all four wheels, all of the time, at any speed. The latest addition is Electronic Differential Locking (EDL) which operates on both the front and rear differentials. This feature detects and limits wheel spin and redistributes the drive torque from side-to-side to take advantage of available traction. This traction enhancing overlay to quattro's basic strength operates automatically and unobtrusively at speeds up to 45 miles per hour. Combined with the front-to-rear power distribution capability of the TORSENV (TORque SENsing) center differential that distributes up to 66 percent of the traction to whichever axle has the most traction.


thats crazy man - if that system does what it says that car would be close to unstoppable in slippery/snowy conditions...thats impressive stuff (and would require a new morgage on the house if it breaks!)

does anyone know when Audi started offering this latest version of the quattro system? what model year did it start in?

I'm not kidding I might go out and buy an audi if this is something that can be had relatively cheaply used- thats real impressive technology. The power of locking F and R diffs in a car? And the one problem with locking diffs, traditionally, is driver error in utilizing them - anyways that is cool stuff
post #207 of 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by godwinaustin

Audi's experience with all-wheel drive results in the fourth generation of the quattro, system at a time when other companies are still on square one. The key to quattro has always been to vary power distribution to all four wheels, all of the time, at any speed. The latest addition is Electronic Differential Locking (EDL) which operates on both the front and rear differentials. This feature detects and limits wheel spin and redistributes the drive torque from side-to-side to take advantage of available traction. This traction enhancing overlay to quattro's basic strength operates automatically and unobtrusively at speeds up to 45 miles per hour. Combined with the front-to-rear power distribution capability of the TORSENV (TORque SENsing) center differential that distributes up to 66 percent of the traction to whichever axle has the most traction.


thats crazy man - if that system does what it says that car would be close to unstoppable in slippery/snowy conditions...thats impressive stuff (and would require a new morgage on the house if it breaks!)

does anyone know when Audi started offering this latest version of the quattro system? what model year did it start in?

I'm not kidding I might go out and buy an audi if this is something that can be had relatively cheaply used- thats real impressive technology. The power of locking F and R diffs in a car? And the one problem with locking diffs, traditionally, is driver error in utilizing them - anyways that is cool stuff
EDL was introduced in 1994 and ESP(Electronic Stability Program) in 1997. ESP can be manually disenegaged with the push of a button on the dash. It is damn near unstoppable especially with M+S rated tires. Buy or lease a new one, all repairs and routine maintenace are included (includes oil changes, wiper blades, disc pads & rotors) for 48 months or 50K miles whichever comes first. I lease a new one about ever 3 1/2 years!

We also have a 1991 Audi 20v Quattro Sedan. You can manully lock the diferentials with a button on the console. It has 4 Pirelli P-Zero Nero M+S on it. An absolute beast in the snow and a very low center of gravity. Very advanced vehicle for '91, Quattro, antilock brakes, airbags, 5 Cylinder 4 valves each, Sunroof, spoiler, leather interior. Damn sharp little rig!
post #208 of 437
Holy smokes, well, everyone will obviously have their own preference as to what constitutes the perfect skiing vehicle. What's necessary and what isn't, likewise, will be up to each. My preference is an S4.

The experiences I've had with my fleet of vehicles has shown severe snow and ice performance ranking of 1) Suburban 2)S4 3)Mountaineer. S4 has the best system of all, but the Suburban performs a bit better in the end just because it has a heavy footprint. That being said, the S4 is better overall. I'd drive either in any condition and only opt for the Suburban due to snow depth and seats/cargo requirements. (Obviously, the Suburban sucks for fuel economy, so it only comes out to tow the TT in the summer or I get a load of seats filled to go skiing.)

Despite Skiingman's clear objection, the S4's Quattro system works as advertised, as does their traction control system.

Chris
post #209 of 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by godwinaustin

The only time you really need a truck in snow - is when you are dealing with deep enough snow that an AWD cars ground clearance becomes an issue
Or, when your haulin 4000 lbs of race course salt!

Put that in your little girly man Quattro!

FASTMAN
post #210 of 437

An ode to minivan

Forget about Quattros and AWD sedans. They aren't roomy enough. Sure they drive nicely in all weather conditions. Don't have to convince me. My primary car is a 330xi, but heck if I want to take it skiing in a day-in, day-out basis.

Forget about SUV's. They suck up too much gas. I had one. A Toyota 4Runner. Forget it. And unless you go for one of those MONSTERS, they generally aren't that roomy either. Besides, they don't handle that well to justify the price and the gas mileage penalty.

I am holding out for a good minivan with AWD. My current skiing ride? A 1998 Pontiac Montanna minivan with blizzark tires. It's got 130K miles on it. It is sufficiently beat up so I don't worry about gravel, rocks, salt, and parking lot dings and bashes. The freedom of not having to worry about keeping the ride pristine is worthless on a skiing trip. A minivan is the perfect thing, unless, of course, you are the type who is concerned about your image as you step out from your ride in the resort parking lot. The only thing I would want next is AWD on it.
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