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Carving on ice: technique or gear or what? - Page 3

post #61 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by oisin
The skills transfer well. I taught a private level one lesson once to a fellow who had never skied and was an accomplished hockey skater. He was literally an almost instant level three
I've had similar experience. Had a kid who was a supurb hockey player start skiing late, as a JIII, and quickly became our teams strongest racer. As a teenager, only a couple years after starting skiing, he was kicking A.J. Kitt's butt.

I think the sensation of balancing on a thin, moving edge translates well from skate to ski, as does the feel of tipping that edge to change direction. Any of you guys who've amazed your friends with your immediate competence the first time you've laced up a pair of roller blades know that it works in reverse also.

As for the cross-over move on skates, it is very different from the cross-over move on skis, and I don't see much specific correlation or carry over. In a skating cross-over the Center Of Mass mass remains on the same side of the feet. In a skiing cross-over move it changes sides. In skating the cross over refers to the foot, in skiing it refers to the CM.

It is, however, great for developing the ability to move from foot to foot.

FASTMAN
post #62 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
As for the cross-over move on skates, it is very different from the cross-over move on skis, and I don't see much specific correlation or carry over. In a skating cross-over the Center Of Mass mass remains on the same side of the feet. In a skiing cross-over move it changes sides. In skating the cross over refers to the foot, in skiing it refers to the CM.

It is, however, great for developing the ability to move from foot to foot.

FASTMAN
Rick
I'm not familiar with the use of the terminology "crossover" in skating. I was simply comparing the movement of body mass from side to side, over the feet, to "crossover" in skiing. Its a familiar and common movement in skating as it is in skiing. The use of terminology in the two sports differs and could be confusing. Certainly I'm not going to want to cross my 180's over one another, although I used to watch Art Furrer do it nonchalantly on his 210's, often while doing some kind of "mambo" down the hill. Not exactly mainstream skiing though!
post #63 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Yes, all skills should be concious skills that can be turned off and on at will. Part of becoming an advanced skier is developing an acute awareness of what the body is doing and how the skis are reacting to it, and the ability to alter that body action to a new one at any desired moment.

FASTMAN
Thanks, I suspected as much, but this is not always easy.

A lot of coordinational movements are etched into so-called muscle memory. One approach to high performance (in many disciplines) is to train the correct movements into memory (by endless repitition) so that they come sub-conciously. For example recent thinking in football coaching is that the last thing an athelete should be doing before taking a free kick is thinking about movements required at a concious level.

Sometimes I think we may over-estimate the degree to which we are able to vary movemnets under concious control (when say dancing, swimming or skiing) when to the outside observer we are making exactly the same movements over and over again. I think ski instructors know this. I have had my skills assessed in a few seconds, when according to my own (probably misguided) perception, my skiing can be completely different when the conditions make it easy.

I am not disagreeing with you in any way (I have much respect for your knowledge and your ability to reason clearly), I am simply intrigued by the nuances of concious vs sub-concious skills - perhaps a topic worthy of a seperate post.
post #64 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpowrie
Thanks, I suspected as much, but this is not always easy.

A lot of coordinational movements are etched into so-called muscle memory. One approach to high performance (in many disciplines) is to train the correct movements into memory (by endless repitition) so that they come sub-conciously. For example recent thinking in football coaching is that the last thing an athelete should be doing before taking a free kick is thinking about movements required at a concious level.

Sometimes I think we may over-estimate the degree to which we are able to vary movemnets under concious control (when say dancing, swimming or skiing) when to the outside observer we are making exactly the same movements over and over again. I think ski instructors know this. I have had my skills assessed in a few seconds, when according to my own (probably misguided) perception, my skiing can be completely different when the conditions make it easy.

I am not disagreeing with you in any way (I have much respect for your knowledge and your ability to reason clearly), I am simply intrigued by the nuances of concious vs sub-concious skills - perhaps a topic worthy of a seperate post.
I don't think we apply skills consciously, as much as we do spontaneously, with awareness of the effect that those skills have. Conscious control of movement is much too slow to be effective in most circumstances. All the rest of Fastman's post was exactly right: you need to be able to use or not use any particular skill at any time depending on the circumstances under your feet.
One trap that many skiers fall into is to practice movements, rather than to develop skills. A particular movement may work sometimes, or even most of the time (as on the groomed), but no one particular movement pattern is efffective in all variable conditions. Anyone who has practiced movements will be lost in a new situation. Someone who has developed skills that can be applied spontaneously will adapt to new conditions pretty quickly. The "etched into muscle memory" movements you referred actually prevent high level performance in most sports. Football coaches condition players to do certain things (like turning downfield after catching a pass), but those are not specific movements that imprint themselves in muscle memory (as in lead with the right foot).

John
post #65 of 87
The mind is a wonderful thing; at times it can think through the equivalent of an encyclopedia in an instant, at other times changing a single angle of a single joint conciously takes too much time.

Some reflexes are good to have trained into ones automatic arsenal. For example, a sudden edge set to avoid an unforseen obstacle. Or turning a steering wheel in a car clockwise to turn right to avoid the car that suddenly appeared in your lane. You don't think "I want to turn right..so I have to turn the wheel clockwise." Another example is a karetaka who has trained the countless individual motions into a kick or punch; he doesn't think about each movement when someone surprises him with an attack; he just punches.

You still decide when to use what technique though, and if your good you decide wether to let the reflex happen or not. (Othewise the karateka's wife would be sueing for divorce )
post #66 of 87
My fencing coach would teach us a movement (actually you learnt the guard positions first... then the movements).... when the movement was well learnt you learnt how to use the movements....

One of the things he had us learn was how to "focus" on a particular sequence that we thought would score on the opponent. The sequence would have a cue - such as an attack the opponent preferred to use.... After focusing on the sequence REALLY HARD for a minute you would simply "push it aside" ..... the next trick was to start playing with opponent & trying to elicit the desired attack from him/her.....

If the "focus" was well performed the body woudl perform quite intricate movement sequences all ON CUE when the oponent presented the cue.... it was VERY fast & required absolutely no input from the conscious mind..... Which left one watching what appeared to be a slow motion replay as you body neatly placed the oponent on the end of your sword....

I tend to use the focus technique when I'm skiing... the focus does not need to be a complex set of tasks ... it can be a simply command word "be patient" is my ice focus.... or "soft feet" may be another....
It is really only necessary to use that STRONG focus before starting out -the body will do what you ask if it has the training to understand the message....

You simply set it to work....

No advanced skier thinks through the set of "instructions" he was given as a beginner skier to turn ...the brain pathways are established & you think "I wanna go THERE" and it happens.... most of the time...
post #67 of 87
The application of skills happens within three specific domains-

The first is the MECHANICAL. This is where the skill/movement is first learned, repeated, and practiced. The conscious focus is on the parts and patterns during this phase.

The second is the HABITUAL. This is where the skill/movement is repeated with more frequency, usually within a consistent environment, until it can be done without direct conscious thought.

The third is the INSTINCTIVE. This is where the skill/movement can be applied at will, in virtually any situation/environment, without conscious thought. Awareness, yes, but not conscious thought.
post #68 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Cole
2. Ski sections of a run that have loud powder and feel the slide. Now go back, with ear plugs, and ski the same run.
The best skier I've ever known also says a similar thing. He says not to listen to your skis if you can avoid it, that the sound of ice scares people, but if they ignore that sound it's easier to ski it. As John said you tense up, and as so many have said in this thread you need to relax to ski ice.

Pierre, do you thus believe that MORE than a 1 degree base bevel helps ice skiing? This flys in the face of common thinking that too large a base bevel makes it hard to get to the edge and that a larger than 1 degree base bevel works well in soft snow but not hardpack or ice.
post #69 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
With you're last point. I don't need sharp edges or skis that are really good for ice. My skis are butter soft and meant for soft conditions. When you first really start to venture into ice good edges are a blessing but are hard to control without some base beveling.
The more acute the angle, the better. .5 base rocks on hard snow. 3 degree side edge is a minimum for acceptable performance. Skis must have good torsional rigidity.

Anyone that claims they can ski well on ice with dull edges.....rrrright. Show me the video.
-Garrett
post #70 of 87
Today at Heavenly, Gunbarrel had a sign at the top, posted by Ski Patrol featuring a skull and crossbones with the following text:

You Can Die
Warning Icy Conditions.
This is your Decision Point

Someone left the snow guns running and they watered the slope then refroze. Interesting trip down! My 6* skis were freshly sharpened, but I still lost the edge at one point. I was going to let it go to my head, but then a female instructor came swooping down the hill with about 6 young kids in tow. Now THAT is a lesson!
post #71 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz
Pierre, do you thus believe that MORE than a 1 degree base bevel helps ice skiing? This flys in the face of common thinking that too large a base bevel makes it hard to get to the edge and that a larger than 1 degree base bevel works well in soft snow but not hardpack or ice.
More than one degree is not a good idea and the better you are the less you need it. I have recommended a bit more than 1 degree for light intermediate skiers who are on stiff skis that are way to long. This is not to say that improving their skiing is not the way to go. What it is saying is that if you do not intend to take a lesson today you just might enjoy the rest of the day.

Remember that the context that my answer was given in was for skiers who are not racers and are intimidated by ice. Not you hair ball racers.

The same goes for dull edges. Dull edges is a matter of degree. Dull for one skier is not for others. I would never recommend dull edges for someone who is going lickty split on ice. My answer should be taken in the context that it was given in. I thought the previous postings to mine were excellent but above may recreational skiers. My answer was given to those who just can't see themselves ripping down the hill on ice and always find chatter. You don't have to have world class techinque and pro tuned skis to still enjoy ice.
post #72 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman
The more acute the angle, the better. .5 base rocks on hard snow. 3 degree side edge is a minimum for acceptable performance. Skis must have good torsional rigidity.

Anyone that claims they can ski well on ice with dull edges.....rrrright. Show me the video.
-Garrett
Better yet I will show you in person. Remember DULL isn't always bad cuz I get to pick the terrain.
post #73 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
More than one degree is not a good idea and the better you are the less you need it. I have recommended a bit more than 1 degree for light intermediate skiers who are on stiff skis that are way to long. This is not to say that improving their skiing is not the way to go. What it is saying is that if you do not intend to take a lesson today you just might enjoy the rest of the day.

Remember that the context that my answer was given in was for skiers who are not racers and are intimidated by ice. Not you hair ball racers.

The same goes for dull edges. Dull edges is a matter of degree. Dull for one skier is not for others. I would never recommend dull edges for someone who is going lickty split on ice. My answer should be taken in the context that it was given in. I thought the previous postings to mine were excellent but above may recreational skiers. My answer was given to those who just can't see themselves ripping down the hill on ice and always find chatter. You don't have to have world class techinque and pro tuned skis to still enjoy ice.
This is a fascinating subject for me, because I know an amazing skier, and 35 year tuner in Vail who swears by a 3 degree base and 3 degree side edge bevels. I did this to my and my fiance's skis and skied a whole season like that. One day on my skis this year with the base bevel returned to 1 degree and it was much better.

I've searched for SOMEONE who agreed with him, in fact that's how I first found EpicSki, so his advice at least had some good effect. Noone believes this is a good idea.
post #74 of 87
Your base bevel is essentially what determines how soon, and at what angle your edge hooks up. Unless a beginner skier wanted to (and planned to) slide their turns on ice all day i would never send them with anything over a 1 degree base, and in fact would urge them to use a flat base. A large base bevel will let the skis run ont he base longer, and hook up late in the turn. In order to use something like a 2 degree base bevel efficiently it requires aggressive transitioning so that youre moving from edge to edge without spending a lot of time standing in transition (your skis should more or less rebound and float across the fall line). A 1 degree bevel or less causes your skis to feel "hooky" because they will relly want to bite into the ice at the top of the turn. They will also require the skier to be able to carve a clean arc, or they will jut want to run straight. Obviously lower level skiers wont be able to do this, but they should be able to skid a turn on ice. If they ever want their edge to engage at the angles they are going to be getting they should keep the bevel low.

I personally ski a 1 degree base and a 3 side on most of my skis. Last season i did however ski my GSX with a 2 degree base and a 3 degree side. I soon found that the ski worked great at this setup, but was only good when i was going fast in a steep course. I have since changed the base to .5 on the GSX, and i will change them as i see fit. I decided that it was better to have to drive them at the top of the turn versus have no edgehold at the top of the turn. If i like this kind of tune i may keep it for the GSX and try it on my new Nordica SLR's that should be in at the end of the week.

Later

GREG
post #75 of 87
An interesting thing i just ran across while looking through the ski press canada fall 2004 issue... On page 43 there is a Head Ad that shows a skier carving on an ice skating rink next to a speed skater. The add goes on to tout the best edge grip on any surface, but for those of you who were looking to start ice skating, it might be a good way to demostrate the similarities. The only difference you see with the speed skater is that the person is slightly more banked in the turn (versus angulated).
Later
GREG
post #76 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz
This is a fascinating subject for me, because I know an amazing skier, and 35 year tuner in Vail who swears by a 3 degree base and 3 degree side edge bevels. I did this to my and my fiance's skis and skied a whole season like that. One day on my skis this year with the base bevel returned to 1 degree and it was much better.

I've searched for SOMEONE who agreed with him, in fact that's how I first found EpicSki, so his advice at least had some good effect. Noone believes this is a good idea.
I personally know a couple of kids that skied in the 50-60 points region (when that was impressive in this region) on three degree base bevels. Most people think its silly, but it does have its benefits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
Better yet I will show you in person. Remember DULL isn't always bad cuz I get to pick the terrain.
Fair enough. I'll be there.
post #77 of 87
Let me bring up another side of this interesting issue -- _not_ carving on ice. At some point, unless one posses the ideal equipment, finesse and terrain one is not going to be able to hold an edge. At this point, what is the best transition?

For me when the edge won't hold the most satisfying thing to do is get your skis as flat as possible and rely on very subtle mostly rotational movement (with a little nudging from the edges). Otherwise, you're skidding. I find I can get by far the smoothest feeling turns this way. The interesting thing is that there doesn't seem to be much of a middle ground between hard edges and sliding/pivoting. Am I making any sense here?
post #78 of 87
In my experience (and I have some), not having and edge on ice means landing on you hip and sliding until you either self-arrest using the ski edges or hit a stationary object or reach the bottom....whichever comes first.
post #79 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodro
Let me bring up another side of this interesting issue -- _not_ carving on ice. At some point, unless one posses the ideal equipment, finesse and terrain one is not going to be able to hold an edge. At this point, what is the best transition?

Am I making any sense here?
You are making sense. See my post on page two of this thread dated Dec 1 at 4:22AM
post #80 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman
I personally know a couple of kids that skied in the 50-60 points region (when that was impressive in this region) on three degree base bevels. Most people think its silly, but it does have its benefits.


Fair enough. I'll be there.
The purpose of base bevel is to soften the edge and reduce chatter. There are two reasons skiers develop chatter.

One reason for base bevel is that the skier is light weight, they are in overly stiff boots and/or skiing on equipment that is two long or stiff for them to properly decamber. That would be the case of many kids.

The second reason is that the skier simply does not possess the skills to really gain an early edge in icy difficult conditions. Chatter happens before the edge hooks up or near the end of the turn when the skis are oversteered (late for the gate or defensive skiing)

In either case a 1 degree base bevel will soften the chatter considerably. I ski with 1 degree base bevel because I don't race and I teach in virtually all the skis that I have. A 1 degree base bevel makes slow speed demonstrations a breeze verses an exercise in exact science. The second reason is that I am normally skiing very short runs where turns are very short. 50% of my teaching is bumps.
post #81 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider
In my experience (and I have some), not having and edge on ice means landing on you hip and sliding until you either self-arrest using the ski edges or hit a stationary object or reach the bottom....whichever comes first.
Losing the edge on ice and landing on the hip usually means that a skier is use to banking their turns and weighting the inside ski to much. While a skier can get by with banking in softer conditions, ice is unforgiving of this technique. Ice demands outside ski dominance even at low edge angles and slow speeds.
post #82 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
You are making sense. See my post on page two of this thread dated Dec 1 at 4:22AM
Ahhah. Had missed that. Yes, this captures what I am talking about well. Cirque, it all depends on the terrain -- one can probably perform a "death-scratch" more easily than a carved turn and perhaps this is what many of us revert to on really sketchy terrain. But where possible, it is much nicer to be able to do a low-angle "scarving" (as Pierre refers to it) turn than to desperatly try to claw one's way into the ice.
post #83 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
The purpose of base bevel is to soften the edge and reduce chatter. There are two reasons skiers develop chatter.

One reason for base bevel is that the skier is light weight, they are in overly stiff boots and/or skiing on equipment that is two long or stiff for them to properly decamber. That would be the case of many kids.

The second reason is that the skier simply does not possess the skills to really gain an early edge in icy difficult conditions. Chatter happens before the edge hooks up or near the end of the turn when the skis are oversteered (late for the gate or defensive skiing)
Yup. And the third reason for a one degree bevel:

Very few shops can get you a consistent bevel of less than one degree.
post #84 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiingman
Yup. And the third reason for a one degree bevel:

Very few shops can get you a consistent bevel of less than one degree.
That's probably true.
post #85 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevensMan View Post

I opened season at Whistler (actually Blackcomb) yesterday. It was raining couple of days before and then -11C yesterday, so whole mountain was frozen. There was 1-2 inches of fresh snow on the top. Everyone was skiing the same run and by sliding around pretty soon almost entire run was very slick – very smooth hard snow. I had a lot of trouble trying to carve in this type of snow. I had 2 pairs of skis: new Atomic SL:11 165 WC version and Volkl Vertigo Motion 191. Early in the morning skiing was great, I had a lot of fun. Later in the day, when this glass-like surface formed I suddenly realized that I can not curve any more on especially on stepper/icier places. My Volkls were skidding sideways, both skis, not tail or tip but entire ski! It was strange feeling and I could not stop it: as soon as I put ski on edge it started skidding. I switched to SL:11s, they were MUCH better, but I was still no able to create high edge angle. Also after 2-3 carved turns I was going too fast for crowded slope. I tried different things and some helped a bit. Wider stance, more pressure on front and less aggressive initiating of the turn helped. Still results were less then ideal, especially on Volkls. So what is the right way to carve on ice? Is it really possible to create high angle aggressive turn in those conditions? WC racers are definitely doing this, however I do not know how slick the race course is/should be and if it matters at all. Please share your thoughts.


WC racers are not worried about going "too fast for a crowded slope". They would ski the same ice very differently (less carving, more skidding and more traversing) if they were trying to ski slow and avoid hitting people.

 

I look for a clear alley, make a few carved turns until I'm going too fast for the run/crowds then scrub some speed by skidding early in the turn and then lightening the skis at the end of the turn so I'm not just sideslipping down the hill and then traverse some more to look for a lane to let er rip again.

 

post #86 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClayCole View Post



Quote:
Originally Posted by StevensMan View Post

I opened season at Whistler (actually Blackcomb) yesterday. It was raining couple of days before and then -11C yesterday, so whole mountain was frozen. There was 1-2 inches of fresh snow on the top. Everyone was skiing the same run and by sliding around pretty soon almost entire run was very slick – very smooth hard snow. I had a lot of trouble trying to carve in this type of snow. I had 2 pairs of skis: new Atomic SL:11 165 WC version and Volkl Vertigo Motion 191. Early in the morning skiing was great, I had a lot of fun. Later in the day, when this glass-like surface formed I suddenly realized that I can not curve any more on especially on stepper/icier places. My Volkls were skidding sideways, both skis, not tail or tip but entire ski! It was strange feeling and I could not stop it: as soon as I put ski on edge it started skidding. I switched to SL:11s, they were MUCH better, but I was still no able to create high edge angle. Also after 2-3 carved turns I was going too fast for crowded slope. I tried different things and some helped a bit. Wider stance, more pressure on front and less aggressive initiating of the turn helped. Still results were less then ideal, especially on Volkls. So what is the right way to carve on ice? Is it really possible to create high angle aggressive turn in those conditions? WC racers are definitely doing this, however I do not know how slick the race course is/should be and if it matters at all. Please share your thoughts.


WC racers are not worried about going "too fast for a crowded slope". They would ski the same ice very differently (less carving, more skidding and more traversing) if they were trying to ski slow and avoid hitting people.

 

I look for a clear alley, make a few carved turns until I'm going too fast for the run/crowds then scrub some speed by skidding early in the turn and then lightening the skis at the end of the turn so I'm not just sideslipping down the hill and then traverse some more to look for a lane to let er rip again.

 


Felt the need to criticize the opening post of a 7 year dead thread about a poster who has not been here in 3 years? FWIW it is nice to see a new poster who has actually learned how to use the search function of the site. beercheer.gif Welcome to EpicSki.

 

post #87 of 87

A clear sign that a new season is right around the corner.  People digging out threads from before the INTERNETZ.

 

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