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What are the Effects of Technica's Dual Pivot on Alignment?

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
I have a couple of questions concerning the axis alignment function in Technica’s Dual Pivot mechanism.

Technica says that the axis alignment function “is used to increase edge efficiency for performance.” An example given in their manual (rewritten slightly for better clarity) is that, if in flexing the cuff your knees normally tend to turn inward, you can adjust the Dual Pivot (the axis) so that the movement of the cuff around the new axis will encourage the knee to turn more outward, counteracting the natural inward flex to produce a more neutral flex.

The questions are:

(1) Does this stress the muscles and/or ligaments in the ankles and/or legs negatively?

(2) If you adjust the axis in one boot but not the other (in order to correct the tendency of one leg to flex to the inside more than the other), would the difference in pivot points and pivot axis between the two boots and ankles be a problem from a practical point of view?

Any other comments in regard to the effects of the Dual Pivot would be appreciated.

post #2 of 23
There are a lot of boot guys here that can give you the technical aspects of what is happening with the boot..... I can only tell you how it skis. I am in last years ICON (Alu?)
The Dual Pivot appears to be the cant mechanism---adjust it either way (knee in/Knee out) and the boot does the rest---I have no idea how---but it works. I beleive it adjusts the cuff at the same time. I think (and its an educated guess) if you need to adjust the two boots differently it should work. You would, after all, be adjusting to your "normal" stance----just different on two sides. I notice no "stress" or other issues due to adjusting this. I have the Hot Form liner and frankly the boot is the best performing bedroom slipper I've ever owned. I only use an "el-cheapo" footbed and have done no other custom work to the boot.

I owned the orange TNT's before this and that had a cant adjustment (which locked it) on the side of the boot. Interesting note---I see a Chiropractor and my "leg length" can be off up to 3/4" from leg to leg at times from spinal misalignment. I had to change the degree of cant on that boot following spinal adjustments or I was noticeably on an outside edge. No matter when I step into the Alu's they always seem to work. I spun the dual pivot adjustment from the factory setting when I first got in them and that was the last adjustment I made.

I think (and again don't know how) that adjustment unlocks the boot on a given side allowing some lateral flex and it seems to adjust constantly. Wherever you go ---- It goes.

If you are thinking of a pair--go with the Hot Form liner. The "Fit" liner is much thinner (esp in the ankle & heel) and it's really nice not having to pull the liner out of the boot to dry it. Plug the Hot Form liner in overnight and they are dry in a few hours and warm the next morning.
post #3 of 23
the way it works is changing the axis on which the boot rotates. you cant the outside one direction and the inside the other, thus causing the boot to rotate on a tilted or distorted axis. this in turn guides the knees in the right direction-either in our out(forced by the boot). At least this is what I gained from the technica clinic. details are a little foggy though, it was about a month ago.

I don't believe this has any adverse effects on the knees...boots have had canting for a while now. if anything I would think it would decrease the risk of injury because it is helping your skiing, and reducing the risk of a fall or faulty technique
post #4 of 23
Real quickly and simply the adjustment changes the tracking of the shaft which changes the way the boot will roll onto an edge. example: if your knee tracks straight ahead and the boot shaft is set up to track to the outside when flexed, when you flex forward the boot will roll the ski onto an inside edge. this is not the same as canting the sole of the boot which will adjust the tracking of the knee so your knee tracks straight ahead instead of changing the shaft tracking to compensate for the misalignment of the knee tracking due to canting issues. A little marketing department influence at Tecnica. "If it were an important adjustment or feature it would be used on the world cup". It isn't. It's cause and affect. I believe instead of putting a band aid on the affect, fix the cause.
post #5 of 23
Looks like a little of all of the above. "Tracking of the shaft" and "rotate on a tilted or distorted axis" as bud and Shea-bird have written, is a better way of explaining it rather than lateral flex as I tittled it.

From the Technica Instructions included with the boot (Yeah I went and dug for it).

"FLEX BLOCK" "Some models are supplied with 4 extra screws and bushings...............it is possible to block longitudinal flex of the cuff almost completely, thereby enhancing the performance of the boot."
"Note (using the dual pivot mechanism for this function will negate the ability for Axis alignment)"

I would expect that those on the WC tour would be inclined to "lock" the cuff to increase response, thereby needing to grind the boot or cant the ski as bud heishman has mentioned.
post #6 of 23
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie
I would expect that those on the WC tour would be inclined to "lock" the cuff to increase response, thereby needing to grind the boot or cant the ski as bud heishman has mentioned.
As evidenced in some other recent threads, WC boots tend to have straightforward "lateral" hinge axis, and no adjustment for canting. The adjustment is done via planer/jointer/router. The cuff is naturally "locked" so to speak.

I would very much like to play with changing the axis of the hinge while keeping everything else equal, and I have just the pair of boots to attempt it with.
post #7 of 23
What would be the effect if you were a pronator and your knee when flexed tracks to the inside? Could you adjust the hinge mechanism to compensate for this resulting in your knee tracking straight ahead. If so, wouldn't this provide the same alignment benefit as boot sole canting- balancing ?

I'm obviously very confused !
post #8 of 23
Actually roundturns I think you have it......You can indeed (at least in the Tecnicas with the Dual Pivot feature) adjust for the knee tracking inside or outside naturally. There is a small plate with two screws on the outside (buckle side that is !) of the shell. You simply unscrew it and flip it around and screw it back in. That's it .......From the factory it adjusts the boots rotational axis for the knee moving one direction---flip the plate 180 degrees and it adjusts for the knee moving the other way.

Previous to skiing this boot I canted 2 degrees on one side and 1 on the other (usually). Skiing in this boot once I adjusted the Dual Pivot control I needed to do nothing else.

One note---I keep hearing on all these threads as roundturns has stated above, "Can you adjust..........resulting in your knee tracking straight ahead ?"

IMHO---NO----Well, not without breaking and resetting your legs ! As I see it whatever your body does will not be effected by an adjustment of the boot. In a properly adjusted boot ---you move naturally---the boot is designed to adjust TO YOU and keep the ski flat (or slightly inside if you prefer).

Again IMHO the Dual Pivot adjustment system on the Tecnicas does appear to negate the need to cant the boot sole or the ski.

The advantage to me personally is following Chiropractic Spinal Adjustments I need to do nothing to further adjust this boot. In my old boots there were times when (following a spinal adjustment) I hopped on my skis and promptly "crab walked" a simple straight run ! It was pretty funny---back inside to make an "on the hill adjustment"---try it again---then go skiing !
post #9 of 23
Thread Starter 
Uncle Louie, rotating the plate 180 degrees changes the cuff alignment. To change the axis alignment you need to remove the cap and screw that are in the plate on one side of the boot and exchange their positions, putting the screw back where the cap was and vice versa. You choose the side of the boot on which to do this based on which way you want the shaft to flex (i.e. to the inside or outside).
post #10 of 23
different dynamics are happening with the two options. When someone is undercanted (ie: "A" framey) and pronated, the method most used is to support the pronation with a footbed and check the lateral alignment and adjust accordingly by planing the boot soles. By correctly aligning the cant angle of the boot sole the knee will track pretty much straight ahead.
Let me digress here....I am assuming that everyone here understands that for years boot companies have been calling their shaft adjustments "canting" adjustments and that this is less than accurate.
with this in mind I will continue....with the Tecnica dual pivot adjustment the shaft tracking angles can be changed. will this make someone who pronates and is knock kneed balanced? I would like to experiment with this one but my hypothesis is it gives the skier a couple presets to choose from and just like other adjustable shafts these adjustments generally miss the masses (ie: are maxed out to one side or the other). My advice is get your alignment assessed by an expert and have your boot balanced. This will give you a more accurated alignment and yes will be less stressful on the knee joint when you are aligned properly.
post #11 of 23
How do I highlite someone's post to quote them?

Uncle Louie, I respectfully disagree with your last post! I am happy that the boots shaft adjustments happened to work for you, but really.... are you suggesting that with this one little feature on a boot everyone can be balanced properly?

post #12 of 23
Skier---You are correct about the screw under the DP plate, I had totally forgotten about it.

bud heishman- It's healthy do disagree and no offence is taken. What I would suggest is that if you haven't---go out and ski the boot. Your "bio" shows you are shop owner/boot fitter and CLEARLY more qualified than me understanding the mechanics of boots and fitting them.

All I can tell you is this small feature has done everything I need it to. Given my "leg length" changes (and therefore the alignment of my lower leg) based on Spinal alignment at a given time and not having to adjust anything on a regular basis--In my case---well yes---I'm Balanced. For everybody----I have no idea !
post #13 of 23
When dual pivot is accurately applied (for rotational not lateral issues) it is somewhat effective and may reduce or even eliminate, in minor instances the need for lateral/medial canting. It is NOT canting, nor did it enhance the range of lateral cuff adjustment on Tecnica boots. It is very important to Loctite the pivots after adjusting them, even on the diablo w/ the new, improved locking screw. (which strips very easily)
post #14 of 23
Thread Starter 
Is the idea to align the axis with or against your natural knee tracking? For example, if your natural knee tracking is to the inside would the correct adjustment be to change the axis so that the shaft also tracks to the inside, or would you change the axis so that the cuff would want to track to the outside? The manual seems to suggest the latter.
post #15 of 23
OOPS--I'd like to correct something I said in post #8----I was absorbed in the Intsruction Manual when I wrote it....

If you are "knock kneed" it is the INTERNAL dp plate that you would adjust.
post #16 of 23
BooTech'S information reagarding the screw being prone to becoming stripped is great information to know . How can an expensive innovative product having the features that Tecnica has developed be compromised by screws that strip?

That drives me crazy. I sripped the cuff "cant" screw on a pair of Head WorldCups two years ago and was lucky the shop could fix it. Had to install a Rossignol screw.

How bummed would you be buying a $700 boot becasue you desired this dual pivot feature and then not being able to effectively use it. I am of the mindset that one would be better served getting a boot that is fitted correctly and if canting is needed , going wth the traditional sole planing.
post #17 of 23
Here is my experiance with the DP cuff, I sell a couple hundred per year. The DP cuff will allow a small degree of tracking adjustment, ie if your knew flexes on an inward track the cuff can made to allow the knew to flex on an outward track. This is not correcting alignment but it does help and can reduce or eliminate the need for canting (grinding the boot soles or under binding strips). The guy who owns the shop I manage is a level three psia and has tried out for the Demo team, he is also as bow-legged as they come, we have found that in his case the DP cuff along with a Zip-Fit liner has reduced the amount of cant needed by 1* on the right (the bad side) and by .5* on the left. We play around with alignment alot at our shop by using our indoor simulator (a revolving carpet) and find that the DP cuff works for some skiers and does nothing for others, I feel that Tecnica makes a good boot but I would not tell a customer to buy one for the DP cuff, if they happen to fit the Tecnica the DP is just a nice bonus that might help them.
post #18 of 23
The boot works great for me. I have been in it for almost two seasons. My fitter adjusted the cuffs and now I have less additional pieces in my boots as compared to the previous boots.
Don't think about it, just ski.
post #19 of 23
BootDude---Thanks ever so much for the response. My guess is that I happen to be one of the "lucky few" it works for.
post #20 of 23
Originally Posted by BootDude
We play around with alignment alot at our shop by using our indoor simulator (a revolving carpet)
I'm afraid I lost interest in the rest of your rather good post when I read this. How cool is this thing? Where can I get one?
post #21 of 23
We manufacture them, about 35k and you can have one in your living room.
post #22 of 23
How do you adjust the dp cant on tecnica rival boots? how do those two discs on either side of the boot work?
post #23 of 23
Originally Posted by Uncle Louie
All I can tell you is this small feature has done everything I need it to. Given my "leg length" changes (and therefore the alignment of my lower leg) based on Spinal alignment at a given time and not having to adjust anything on a regular basis--In my case---well yes---I'm Balanced. For everybody----I have no idea !
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here and ask the obvious question - Uncle Louie how do you know you are balanced in your boots and skis? Did you actually have yourself checked when in your boots or are you just reporting that you "feel" balanced? There's a big difference between the two.
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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › What are the Effects of Technica's Dual Pivot on Alignment?