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Why are solly's bad?

post #1 of 51
Thread Starter 
I know that there is alot of bad sentiment towards salomon, specifically their scream line, but why is this so. Everyone just blatently states that they stink, but never give any reasons why. So could people tell me in an objective manner why they stink.

BoB
post #2 of 51

Answer to your question

I'm not a big Salomon fan (especially X-Scream) because of the construction. With an injected-foam ski like the X-Scream they ski great for 5-10 days and then break down quickly. I'm a big guy who skis hard and I need something with some substance, not a great ski that breaks down one month into the season. I know plenty of people who love them (at least initially), but the construction dictates that you aren't going to get the mileage out them that you might get out of another ski.
post #3 of 51
salomon skis take a knock from a lot of people who are super aggressive, very technically accomplished skiers.

the reason for this is that the skis, due to their construction, do not hold up well when pushed as far as these skiers like to push their equipment. they notice that most salomon skis tend to "give" under these forces. by "give" i mean lack of torsional stiffness, chatter or other disconcerting high-speed habits, a lack of pop in the tail when it's really needed.

that said, many salomon skis ski really well for most people.

what it comes down to is performance target and personal preference.

it once was true that foam cores lost their snap, and i'm sure they still do, but to a lesser extent. foam technology has come a long way.

for an aggressive, technically accomplished skier, one of the greatest joys of skiing is laying a classic sandwich-construction wood and metal ski on edge at some ridiculous speed - and i agree!
post #4 of 51
I have to agree with the above posts regarding the Salomon skiis. I bought a pair of X-Screams 4 seasons ago (formerly skied on straight 205's). I absolutely loved them when I first started skiing them, but now they feel like they are tired. I have to work much harder to get them to perform than when new. For me, this translates to tired legs after several hours ripping groomers.

Don't get me wrong, they will still perform. I just have to exert more energy now than when they were new. I thought the problem may have been the tune. However, after a stone grind and then several hours in my basement, they just don't have the snap they had when new.
post #5 of 51
I am an okay skier and i have to say that I agree with most of your sentiments toward Salomon skis. I skied both the Crossmax 10 and the Scream 10 Extra Hot last year, and found similar results... mostly only from the Crossmax 10 though. The Xtra Hot is a very good ski. I skied it long (175) for my size though, so that may have made a difference. The crossmax seemed to lack snap and pop. Although very smooth and liked to arc it wasnt terribly fast. It had decent edgehold, but not what i would expect from that caliber of a ski. I do own a pair of Xscreams as well. They were a good ski for me to learn on when i was developing good technique. At this point i can pretty much over power them at any point while skiing, but i still will ski on them quite often when the conditions are crud or cut up powder.

I don't think it is due to the foam core though. At one point in time it may have been, but i dont think it is now. Mostly i think it is Salomon's ski charactersitic that leads them to perform like they do. They build skis to suit a broader spectrum of the market in stead of marketing to the top 5% of skiers. This is why their sales are so high from season to season. If you have ever skied a Salomon WC Stock race ski, you will quickly rrealize that they build some of the fastest skis in the business, that will hold an edge on anything you put them on. Ironically, they are usually a foam core ski (or a hybrid core). When you ski a Salomon you have to realize the target audience. When you compare the Crossmax 10 to a Fischer RX8, the 10 is blown away. Now think about how many skiers you know that can actually use an RX8 to its fullest potential. I would bet that it isnt very many.

It may also occur that when a skier demos a ski they do not really know what they are looking for. They might demo a ski that is similar to an RX8 and find it to have excellent edgehold, wile they are skidding all of their turns. You may put them on a ski like the Crossmax 10 and find that their skiing improves greatly, but after the demo they will rave about the RX8 just because they can tell that it is a higher performing ski. Whether a particular ski is right for them is another question. Personally i do not know very many skiers that can out ski a top of the line Salomon ski... I think they are a good ski for about 97% of the population on the snow... maybe even more.

I used the Fischer/Salomon example because i watched it play out during a demo day. My dad, on a Fischer RX6 said that he loved the ski. He claimed that he didnt like the Crossmax 10. When you then compared his skiing on the 6 versus the 10 - it was much much better on the 10. I would place the RX6 about at the same performance level as the Xmax 10, but with slightly more rebound energy. His skiing was much more smooth and controlled on the Salomon and it really looked like he was working with the skis instead of against them.

That being said, before you knock the entire brand, look at the target audience. Just because an every day expert hates the skis doesnt mean that your 15 - 30 day a year advanced skier wont do very well on them. They are designed to be skied by a wide range of people. I skied the Crossmax 10 just fine - no complaints - other than it isnt my ski of choice. If i was looking for a fun ski to just cruise on... the Crossmax is a ski that i would definitely consider due to its ease.

Later

GREG
post #6 of 51
I flex tested a Salomon SL ski at the ski show last weekend and was really surpised how much it flexed but was still stiff torisionally.

I might have to demo one this weekend.

I have Atomics for when I want to rip on hardpack and I have a pair of Salomons for when the conditions are soft and light or I want to hit some bumps.
post #7 of 51
Arre with all that is said. Add that skis like the scream seem to have a very wide "sweet spot" which is good for comfort level and can help you out when you're off balance but makes them feel unresponsive to subtle movements. Personally, I just don't care for the snow feel, and that is a very subjective thing. I must say that I haven't skied a Salomon for 3-4 years so it might be time to update my assesment. Love their boots.
post #8 of 51
I think Greg gave a very competent analysis.
There are the comments I might add.

The race stock skis are undoubtedly as powerfull as those of other brands. Yet, they lack the "right" sandwich feel most of us love so much - this might be a (subconsciouss) handicapp.

There are relatively/very few race stock Salomons around among (us)opinionmakers - just compare it to the neverending Atomic racestock discussions. It´s just now Salomon provides some LAB skis for the public (at least in Europe).

The plates. The Pilot system proved to be not very successful at hardpack skiing. The lack of pressure transfer on both ends of the Pilots (especially the rear part) again disqualifies the Pilot models for the most demanding skiers on hardpack.

The Hangl GS plates, also with screws on both ends, were definitely better but even though new plates built by VIST are being used now.

I have an older race stock GS with a standard VIST Worldcup plate. It´s a perfect ski which should habe been my rock ski but it´s so good that I probably never can use it that way.

Contact of shovels. I don´t know the English term for the fact that many Salomons tend to "open" at a point several inches before the front contact point only after being skied for an hour or two - irrespective of the snow/air temperature. I don´t know why.

Two examples: I have an older race-stock SG model 210 cm, in its glorious years one of the fastest skis in Czechia. It "opens" that way. Well, maybe it´s that less contact means no grabbing shovel and more speed, I thought.
But why does my friend´s Pocket Rocket do the same?
Is it intentional again?
They are all aspects that might become handicaps and infiltrate into the opinions of general public.
post #9 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by funkybob
I know that there is alot of bad sentiment towards salomon, specifically their scream line, but why is this so. Everyone just blatently states that they stink, but never give any reasons why. So could people tell me in an objective manner why they stink.

BoB
Nah...they don't stink. Some people just have a different preference. Skis like the original X-Scream, 1080 and Pocket Rocket created categories like midfat, BC Twin and Twin. As stated by other posters, Sallie makes gear for the mass populous of skiers and markets for mass appeal.

About the foam ski comments, there is truth to the quick breakdown of foam cores, but features like spaceframe and the new foam/wood hybrid cores (like on the Scream Xtra Hot) have helped to combat that effect.

If you are less than a true expert and weigh less than say 180 lbs. I feel that any Salomon will be fine for you. Mind you, I do my share of Pcoket Rocket bagging, as I like a more solid ski for variable off-piste conditions. However, my groomer/park skis are last year's 1080. I find that if you really ski Sallies with a more modern two-ski technique, they handle just fine. If someone wants to power a Sallie ski, it can be done, but again, a modern two ski technique is needed.

Anyhow...my two bits.
post #10 of 51
Actually the Salomon X-Scream Series has wood in the core. This is an old ski so it's not accurate to compare it to current models. The Pilot Hot and Xtra Hot both have wood in the core. In my opinion the Xtra Hot has enough beef for most all mountain skiers.
post #11 of 51
Good looks ont hat Lucky. I didnt mention that Salomon started about 3 years ago, to change over various skis int heir line to an entirely wood core or a hybrid wood/foam core. As he said, many of their newer skis use wood now. It might be a marketing ploy to put the consumer at ease, since there is such a taboo regarding foam cores, but they are making an effort to change the image. but as was said, very few people can actually outski a top end Salomon ski.
Later
GREG
post #12 of 51
My kids & their friends have been on twin tips of various brands & models for 7 seasons now. They stress their skis way beyond what most of us on this forum ever will. The 1080s have held up better than any of the models they've tried.
post #13 of 51
According to the current Salomon catalog, there are:
- 2 models with wood core (X-Scream series, Scrambler 400)
- 14 models with the combination power foam/wood
- 26 models with power foam PU
(adult models only, no junior skis, no snowblades)
post #14 of 51
I've had four pairs of Salomons over the last ten years or so, and the story is pretty much the same; they just don't hold up. My pair of Xscreams and Crossmax 10's were like noodles at the end of the first season. My pair of Prolinks delaminated after the first month of use, and I had to go through an act of congress to get them to do anything about it. My previous pair had to be sent back to Salomon because the bases were so warped that nobody could tune them without grinding all the life out of them. I agree that Salomon makes a ski that is suitable for the average skier, but when you're paying for high end stuff that's what you ought to get, instead of low level run of the mill stuff with a big price tag.
post #15 of 51
If you are a light person the Salomons will serve you right. If you are a heavy person and a very aggressive skier they may not do it for you and the Atomics may be a better choice. I went from a pair of rossis to the Xscream 10 a couple of years ago. I'm a decent skier and after switching skis I've skied Snowbird and Jackson Hole. I went everywhere (in/out bounds, powder, pack, bumps) and they were great. I have to agree that for hardpack the rossis had more recoil) BUT, although an aggressive skier, I'm a skinny guy (145 lbs, 5'10") so softer, damper skis float my boat. If some of you are right, a couple of years more and I may be changing skis.... So what?!
post #16 of 51
Not from experience, just from research, I think it's a marketing and skier handicapping thing. As mentioned elsewhere on this forum, most skiers think they are better than they really are. That's one reason why ski shop employees direct me to intermediate-advanced skis when what I would really be happy with is racing slalom skis. I'm sure they do it (decide that the reported ability level is higher than the actual ability level) to other customers too. Salomon, it seems, has just taken over that process from the ski shop employee. They market skis as skis that are suitable for experts running a super-g race on, when in fact the skis are suitable for intermediate-advanced skiers skiing at the upper end of the recrational range of speeds. Consequently people expecting the advertised phenomanal grip and stability at 60 mph are dissapointed.
As someone once said, "Salomon makes skis for people that think they're experts."
And truth be told, the customer base is much greater at the intermediate-advanced level than at the pro or ex racer level.
post #17 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
most skiers think they are better than they really are. That's one reason why ski shop employees direct me to intermediate-advanced skis when what I would really be happy with is racing slalom skis.
Ghost, I don´t want to argue your point
but as to the quote,
do you think skiers who would be happy with racing skis let themselves manipulate into "intermediate-advanced" models?
And, if so, are they really skiers who would deserve racing skis?
Maybe yes, I´m just asking. Maybe it´s a bit different in Europe?
post #18 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkracer
Ghost, I don´t want to argue your point
but as to the quote,
do you think skiers who would be happy with racing skis let themselves manipulate into "intermediate-advanced" models?
And, if so, are they really skiers who would deserve racing skis?
Maybe yes, I´m just asking. Maybe it´s a bit different in Europe?
No. They are not skiers who let themselves be manipulated into "intermediate-advanced" models, but that doesn't stop the salesmen from trying.
post #19 of 51
Thread Starter 

hmm

well, I am 5'11" and weigh 135lbs. I am a very advanced off trail skier (steeps, powder, moguls) So it would seem that Scream xtra hots would be a good choice for me. Right?
post #20 of 51
I think so. Try to demo them or rent a pair before buying.
post #21 of 51
I don't dislike Salomon as a whole. I can only speak from my experience with the Salomon X-Scream Series ski. I broke two pair within one season. I then switched to Atomic and haven't had any problems. I'm a fairly heavy (190 pounds) and aggressive skier, but I didn't mistreat the X-Screams. They are just poorly designed. I kept cracking them where those stabilizer bars were attached to the topsheets.
post #22 of 51
I've owned 4 pairs of salomons over the years and demoed probably a half dozen. The ones I owned:

'96 Prolink 3S, Pr7 (197 cm). Raced on it, and really liked it for EC freeskiing and bumps, and jumped on it plenty. It had alot of sidecut for it's day. I thought it was plenty stable at speed too, had some pop, with some livelyness to it, but somewhat damp. Had a solid wood core, no metal. Still felt great to me after 50+ days. It's too bad that they don't build them like this anymore.

Original 1080's, 177 cm. Ok, but too light and whippy. Feels like a intermediate ski. Still have them, with like 10 days use on them.

X-Screams, 195 cm. From a couple years back. Felt great when new. Some livelyness but damp, soft, but decent pop. Pretty done after about 20-30 days, feel had degraded, as had pop.

Xtra Hots, 185 cm. Really liked them at a demo, and got a deal on them from a bro. They are much, much more beefy than the x-screams. Heavy, lots of glass in there, don't know if there is metal or wood inside, though I know there is foam where the pilot system goes on (transverse bolts). The metal plates for the pilot sytem work pretty well, damping/beefing the ski, works way better than the old pilot crap that I hated. I feel like they have lost some of their pop since new, but they are not bad. We'll see. If you're a gaper, you can ski them and they won't kick you ass. However, if you really get on them and crank some hard, deep GS carves, they come alive and are quite solid.
post #23 of 51
And another thing, about feel in general.

I like the salomon feel. They have a decent amount of livelyness, with some dampness and moderate flex and heft. Pretty much middle of the road, IMHO.

The best feeling skis I have ever been on are stocklis. I own a pair (1st gen stormriders) and have demoed another (3rd gen stormriders), and am buying a set of 201 cm Asteroids. They f'ing rock. They are heavy skis with a decent amount of metal in them, and are damp, but not particularly stiff. However, due to either the cores or some sort of super mojo they put in there, they have this super *alive* feeling to them, where you can feel exactly what the entire ski is doing at all times. This is an awesome feeling to have in a pair of skis, and I highly recommend trying them.

After the durablity I've experienced in my salomons, and what I hear about atomics, I am never buying a cap/foam ski again, and probably never even a cap ski again. Only rectangular sandwitch construction from me here on in.

The worst ski? I absolutely HATE volkl cap skis. They feel dead, DEAD, as roadkill to me as far as snow feel goes, the exact opposite as stocklis. They suck, and I will never own a pair...well, I have a pair of P40 SL's that suck, that I bought before I figured this out. I've demoed about 4 pair of various types over the last few years, G3's, p60 sl's, and a few others....all crap. Probably the most overrated ski in the industry.
post #24 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway Star
The worst ski? I absolutely HATE volkl cap skis. They feel dead, DEAD, as roadkill to me as far as snow feel goes, the exact opposite as stocklis. They suck, and I will never own a pair...well, I have a pair of P40 SL's that suck, that I bought before I figured this out. I've demoed about 4 pair of various types over the last few years, G3's, p60 sl's, and a few others....all crap. Probably the most overrated ski in the industry.

HAHA, that should get a response =)
post #25 of 51
guys, go easy. it was his third post.
post #26 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by funkybob
HAHA, that should get a response =)
Yeah, I would think so. But that's my real opinion of them, not a troll or flamebait. I have yet to try a pair that I liked. They feel like a steaming pile of dog poopie.....wayyyyy too dead. If you are a big volkl fan and exclusively ski them, I suggest opening your eyes and trying some other skis.

I own a pair of newish Volkl DH boards that are pretty sweet, and a pair of race stock P30 rc's that are pretty nice too, but too narrow to be useful for much of anything. I liked my old p10's, sl and rs, even though they were too big and stiff for me. All rectangular construction.

BTW......I have also been pretty unimpressed with the feel of K2's over the last couple years. Not as bad as the volkls, but very dead feeling, even in their light, whippy models with no metal (axis x, for example). I own a set of 195 launchers that are half decent, but they do lack feel/livelyness for how whippy they are and how lackluster they are in crud.
post #27 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by unionbowler
guys, go easy. it was his third post.
Haha...I'll eat alive 99% of the people on this board, no need to stick up for me.

Thanks.
post #28 of 51
Here goes, everybody is different, some like ski A some like ski B. I happen to like ski V Volkl. The best Salomons I ever skied were the 3V SuperAxe. That yellow screem IMO when I demoed it was, lets just say, not a Volkl. The 3V was great, I could tell early on why all the race team kids loved there SuperAxe Teams. I sold it a couple of seasons later and I'm still kicking myself for that bone head move.

I have demoed the all of Salomons upper end skis at there Oasis project when it comes to Okemo each year. I even take a vacation day to do it. I like the Xtra hot best of all in there current crop. Ski it short I skied it in 165cm, I was 195lbs and I'm 5'11".
post #29 of 51
Is SCSA returning?
It's my opinion that people who tend to like German, Austrian and Swiss skis generally don't like Salomon skis. I have been on Salomons for the past 10 years and have never broken any of them. My skiing partner is a level 3, former freestyler, and speed skier and has also never destroyed any Salomons. He is a very powerful and aggressive skier and weighs over 200lbs.
post #30 of 51
Salomon makes good skis. If they didn't, they wouldn't be so prevalent.

Don't put too much stock in the hodge podge of opinions being hurled at you, just look up when the next "Oasis" event will be near you, then go demo all of their skis and then you'll have an opinion that's actually based on more than " my buddy sez so! ".
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