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Definitions: Fall Line and Turn Radius? - Page 2

post #31 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado
Hmmm...sounds simple. But it's not quite that simple! ... Sorry--things are rarely as simple as we'd sometimes like!
I have noticed the absence of HeluvaSkier on this topic now that it's been revealed that both definitions are considerably more complex than the over-simplified and flippant ones he so willingly proffered earlier in the thread.
post #32 of 57
I was abstaining from the conversation. The definitions are simple. The applications are more complex and require knowledge of skiing and knowledge of terrain, and then how to adapt your skiing to that terrain and/or turn shape. You asked what they meant, i answered. If you had asked how they apply to your skiing, you may have gotten a different response. Luckily others here took your question to one of intelligence, but i cant say that i feel the same. Both are very simple concepts integral to skiing, that if you dont understand them (or at least have common knowledge of them - without knowing specific terms) i have to wonder how you are able to ski. In all honestly i didnt take your question seriously because i didnt think that someone would ask something so straight forward and rather absurd. I thank you for calling me out though, so that i might rejoin this lovely conversation on two terms, that like is done so often here, are getting beaten to death.
Later
GREG
post #33 of 57
Didnt Steven Hawking recall about 30 years of his work about a year ago... and in doing so lose one of the biggest bets in scientific history? Just a thought...
Later
GREG
post #34 of 57
Thread Starter 
Whether Hawking's theories had merit or not, the analogy remains legitimate. Understanding is one thing; communicating is something else entirely. Take you for example, I understand that you are a fin-de-siecle toughguy, an Information-age bully who throws virtual pebbles from behind his monitor and chuckles devilishly when one hits. But communicating this sentiment requires words and challenges that if articulated will result in the unfortunate byproduct of reducing me to your trollish level. So I must either find an alternative way to convey your laughable egomania, or simply trust that the fellow posters on this board will draw their own conclusion without my guidance. I elect the latter.
post #35 of 57
Do your research before posting please. I'm sure there are being conclusions drawn... whether or not your 'guidance' is being valued is another story. A troll however... I am not. Oh well. Enjoy learning that whole turning/fall line thing. One question though: How does a person who can make reference to Hawking not know what a radius is? Your original post my look slightly trollish... or maybe i know nothing of skiing and im completely over simplifying the discussion.
Later
GREG
post #36 of 57
RotoFury, You asked a couple of questions, the answers to which provided enlightenment and entertainment, and to me, that is the essence of EpicSki.com. You did a service to this community and I urge you to carry on.

I also get a kick out of Heluvaskier's unadorned honesty. I can never fault a guy for calling 'em as he sees 'em.
post #37 of 57
Thread Starter 
I am not going to continue the bickering with you Heluva. I just returned from your hometown of Buffalo, and I realize there is nothing much to do there other than sit behind your PC and stir the pot. Though, of course, when I was 22, I am sure I could have found something -- or someone -- considerably more entertaining than the EpicSki message board (no offense EpicSki moderators).
post #38 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
Since many manufacturers do publicize this number, is it a meaningless marketing ploy or an important characteristic of a ski?
The sidecut radius is, I think, an important characteristic of a ski. It's A Good Thing, to my mind, that ski descriptions nowadays typically include the sidecut dimensions. It would be nice if there were a standard way to describe flex too, at least generally, but that hasn't happened yet.

I'm not sticking my nose, or any other part of my anatomy, into the Heluva/RotoFury showdown
post #39 of 57
If you have questions like this, there's a real great book that can help. It's called the "The Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing, 3Ed.". This is probably my favorite ski book. I've heard it's out of print but I've also heard the guy who wrote is doing a 4Ed. sometime in the next few decades:-)
post #40 of 57
Thread Starter 
Thanks, Learn. I think I am as read up as I can be without confusing myself. I just have to get out there and "do" it more, you know? It's like hitting a baseball: someone can be able to recognize all the pitches on paper, be able to write a thesis on various pitchers' throwing motions, and buy the best bat possible ... but without taking a few hundred thousand cuts, they aren't going to be able to make consistent contact.

Take my wife for example: she had no idea what a fall line or turn radius is, but she's been skiing since she was four and is one of the most technically proficient skiers on the mountain, any mountain. She took her few hundred thousand cuts, so to speak.

This site is great for information. And some members are awfully proud of their textbook knowledge and expansive topical vocabulary, but the idea is to get out there and do it. I posted this thread because I didn't know what the sidecut radius of 12 meant and because I had a vague definition in my head of fall line and I wanted to fully understand the graphic illustration of how to carve expertly. Then the thread turned into a bit more than I bargained for.
post #41 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by RotoFury
Then the thread turned into a bit more than I bargained for.
Be careful what you ask for around here because you will definetly get it. LOL

Bob explained the radius point in such straightforward but complete detail that I think even I get it now.

BTW, Hawking didn't "recall" his theories, he modified them to match current observation and insight. Thats why its called "science" and not "theology".
post #42 of 57
Thread Starter 
Bob's post was awesome wasn't it. I am dying to go to the ETU now!
post #43 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by RotoFury
I just returned from your hometown of Buffalo, and I realize there is nothing much to do there other than sit behind your PC and stir the pot.
Hey DodoFury,

To bad you don't ski, Buffalo is a hot bed of alpine activity in the winter. The locals there are also blessed with natural resources that provide for a multitude of other high quality outdoor recreation possibilities. Only the pathetically sedentary could go there and not discover a plethora of opportunity for outdoor recreation.

The area also cultivates some of the best skiers in the world, and I'm sure that if you had dared to venture out of that little hole you must have crawled into while you were there, that any one of the pros at the many local ski resorts could have helped you to comprehend these extremely complicated concepts.

You ignorant bonehead.

FASTMAN
post #44 of 57
Thread Starter 
Rick,

Sorry, man, but I was there for work. Didn't have time to ski all day. But today I am leaving for Paris. But since Paris isn't known for it's "alpine activity" and "outdoor recreation" you probably wouldn't enjoy it.
post #45 of 57
Thread Starter 
By the way ... Heluva and Rick,

You guys have posted almost 2,000 messages between you, claim to be so well informed about skiing, yet you haven't contributed one red cent to the site that provides you with 90% of your social life. Give a few bucks, will ya, and support the community. I am sure you are saving tons on rent living in your mom's basement.
post #46 of 57
I wonder if there is a direct corellation between the warm weather, lack of snow and this banter .......:
post #47 of 57
Really Roto, look up some of our posts before shooting off your mouth. Rick's contributions to this site are worth more than money could offer to most people. Don't put the guy down. He is one of the most knowledgable coaches and instructors on this site. If you would shut up and listen/read a little, there is a lot you can learn from him.

As for me contributing, i would love to, but being a collegiate level ski racer takes its toll on my bank account. I don't think that needs further explanation. However do not doubt either of us in terms of knowledge of skiing or ability for that matter... especially based on our discretionary income. Drop it, and hop off...

Anytime youre in buffalo I'd love to take you to school on the snow though. We would definitely learn what a fall line and turn radius is. And if i couldnt teach you i have about 25 - 30 (its that big now Rick) friends that would gladly help me teach you. I'm certain that one of us is on your "level."

Later

GREG
post #48 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by RotoFury
Rick,

Sorry, man, but I was there for work. Didn't have time to ski all day. But today I am leaving for Paris. But since Paris isn't known for it's "alpine activity" and "outdoor recreation" you probably wouldn't enjoy it.
Been there already Dodo, and you're right, I didn't like it. Just struck me as a rather dirty, run down city. But then, I was working too (playing baseball for the US against the French National team) so perhaps I didn't have the time to make a fair evaluation.

As you've already seen, the primary source of my enjoyment is found in physical activities in pristine outdoor settings, so the idea of sitting in the middle of a filthy city eating croissants, where the only time the waiter can speak English is when he presents the bill, is not my personal idea optimal fun. I guess the whole cultural wonder of the place just got lost on this simple little country boy. I'm sure you'll enjoy it much more than I did.

By the way, I also spent some time in Val d'Isere, France, and found the place much more enjoyable than Paris, even though I was working that time too (racing for the US). But, I wouldn't recommend it as a place for you to visit while you're over there because I'm sure you'd be bored as hell, not much for one of your tastes to do there either.

And just a final warning, if you're ever in Buffalo again I wouldn't recommend taking Greg up on his offer. Greg is a very strong skier, and after the way you've conducted yourself here I don't think he'd be gentle.

FASTMAN
post #49 of 57
Thread Starter 
You guys can have the last word. You need it more than I. I will comment no further on this topic, or on the inappropriateness of your response. I have never once claimed to be an expert - or even advanced - skier. Sorry if my questions are beneath your level of expertise. But if you find them to be painfully stupid, then perhaps you should just start your own erudite thread and not mock someone who is trying to learn.
post #50 of 57
I think a nice simple description of the fall line is the direction of fastest acceleration given a smooth incline from your current position. Regardless of where you are on the hill, you can always turn into the fall line and accelerate. For instance at the top of a sphere every direction is the fall line, but once you move off the top you have only one fall line from any given position.

One thing you don't want to confuse people about is that there is one only one fall line on the hill. Like there is a line drawn down the mountain, and that is the fall line regardless of where you are on the hill. In this way a line parallel to someone elses fall line may not be your fall line. It might take you up the side of the mountain, but put them in the run out.

I think the direction of maximum acceleration is a good functional definition for skiing becuase thats what you are really getting after when you use the term. You go down the fall line to speed up, and you move away from it to slow down. This is immediately intuitive to any normally functioning human being, even if they don't have any idea what the term is, or why it works that way. Anyone who doesn't understand this will quickly be an example of it.

The internet really does make you stupid.
post #51 of 57

A lesson!

As an instructor, I TRY to never, I repeat TRY to NEVER tell a student "that's a stupid question". If I do someone needs to remind me why I started teaching.

My lessons start with an introduction of myself and what we expect in a lesson. I tell my students the only stupid or dumb question is the one they don't ask. I never assume that all people are trained in all aspects of life. Maybe they didn't learn something. Maybe they did and the knowledge was never needed in their life after school or it's just something they didn't quite understand, etc...(I'm sure we've all heard, "Use it or lose it")

One of the terms I bring up in at the very start of the First time/never ever lesson is "fall line" I like to let them know that this is a term that will follow them throughout their skiing adventures. To make it a little more entertaining, I usually say something like "It's not the fall line because it's the way we always fall" Then I proceed to explain that if you took a ball and set it on the ground it would be the way the ball rolled. This is a pretty clear simple discription for students. I usually tell students that often when visibility is low and you fall it helps to think of this because without reference points it's sometimes hard to get a bearing. It will also serve them to understand this when they try to stand up after falling. We use the term over and over in a beginning lesson as I have them side step up and down the hill boots only, then in skis. When we get to making "bullfighter turns" to turn around the term comes up again. (Bullfighter turns are for another thread) and of course when they start sliding for the first time.

DC
post #52 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by onyxjl
Anyone who doesn't understand this will quickly be an example of it.
That's actually pretty damn funny. I believe the varying definitions that have been posted in response to this question serve to validate its asking.
post #53 of 57
OHHHH! you guys r makin my brain hurt again.

I believe that the turn radius numbers on skis and flex numbers on boots should be used as a reference between that manufacturer's models and not between other brands.

Grab your balls, and your skis and lets go find that fall line !!!!
post #54 of 57
Hi again bud---try it this way---

Let your skis go----and if you HAVE to grab your balls----It's a good bet you are on too steep a run and you have indeed found the Fall Line.
post #55 of 57
Gentlemen... here's some shovels. Please go scoop up and dispose of all the yellow snow that you've generated from this little p*ssing match. Please refrain from "relieving" yourselves in the lift line...... it is disturbing to the children and the visitors.: :

Love,Mom
post #56 of 57
Thread Starter 
Dr. ... Heluva and Roto are on good terms. Heluva and Rick are on good terms. Now it's just up to Rick and Roto. Rick ... how 'bout it?
post #57 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by RotoFury
Dr. ... Heluva and Roto are on good terms. Heluva and Rick are on good terms. Now it's just up to Rick and Roto. Rick ... how 'bout it?
Ohhhhh,,,, all right.

Guess we shouldn't keep scarin the women and children, should we roto?
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