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A picture for examination - Page 2

post #31 of 52

Thanx for the translations.

One thing thou, when I traverse my uphill ski is leading together with my uphill knee, hip and shoulder (most nowadays call it oldfassion style). My body is turned much in the downhill direction and I push my hips slightly uphill. My hips are deffinetly on the hillside of my skiis. Dont you consider this a "closed" position? When I said that my hips are aligned with my skiis I ment that since the upper ski is leading and I face in the direction of the imaginary line drawn between the tips of my skiis Im actually facing about 20deg downhill from my direction of moovement. In some cases on steeps, in powder or in moguls I am twisted almost 90deg. Wouldent you call my style "closed" or "rotated" and not "open" or "countered?

Dont worrie to call me oldfassion, Ive skiied for 38y now, I can take it. I have developped a style that works well in all mountain skiing racing included and I have recieved my fundamental training in the Alps.
post #32 of 52
Wow, so much movement analysis from a single picture. Just about all of it based on assumptions rather than reality! It almost seems that some instructors will try to find problems regardless of the situation. That is soooo wrong!
post #33 of 52

Expert Advisor

TomB, feel free to comment me on my previous post here above! No picture attached.
post #34 of 52

I am not qualified to comment, as I am not an instructor. But since you asked ...

If you traverse for any length of time, there is no need to counter. I hope everyone agrees with that. However, if you are linking turns, a little counter is OK, in my opinion. The shorter the turn, or steeper the terrain the more you will face the fall line (as you mentioned yourself). The real trick is to make sure that you do no more and no less than necessary. In other words, let the counter come naturally, guided by the circumstances.

I like to let my new inside half (starting with the feet) guide my new turns. This prevents me starting new turns with an old style counter move.
post #35 of 52

Dont worrie, I am qualified to take comments from non instructors....

Im still lost in translations.... in my humble opinion if you let your new inside half guide your new turns it sounds to me like you are using an old style "rotated" or so called "closed" style. Same as me. Same as Hans Knauss way back in ancient 2003 on video clip 2:
post #36 of 52

I have a vartiation of therusty`s tip about imagining a line from right hip to left hip, with a perpendicular line to it showing the direction your upper body is facing. You can actually do this while skiing. In a slow traverse accross the hill going to the right (your uphill foot wiil be the right foot) take one of your poles and put the grip right on your belly button and hold it so it sticks straight out. If you have it straight out, then where the pole points is where your upper body is facing. You can see where the ski tips are pointing, and compare that direction with the pole direction. Because your right foot, right knee, right hip and right shoulder are naturally slightly ahead of your left foot, knee, hip, and shoulder in this traverse, your upper body is probably "alligned" or "turned", or "facing" slightly left of your ski direction ( and I`ll bet your belly button pole points left of the ski tips). This position is also said to be slightly "open" to the hill, or slightly "countered". (Many ways of saying pretty much the same thing!)

Now continuing your voyage of discovery traverse, rotate the upper body ( still holding the pole straight out from your navel so that the pole moves as one unit with with the torso) so that the pole direction lines up with the ski tip direction (upper body is now said to be "square" to the skis-this may feel a bit uncomfortable in your traverse since it is much more natural to be a bit open). Continue to turn the upper body until the pole points to the right of the ski tips. You are now starting to face up the hill (or "closed" to the hill). This is the dreaded "rotated" upper body position which is not a good thing in skiing.

I think it is safe to say that for most turns, the only time you want to be truly square to your skis is during the transition.As the old edges are released, and the new direction is established, and the mass crosses over the feet there is a moment when the upper body and the skis actually line up.(are square) But very soon the body will naturally (if we let it) start to face at least slightly open or countered to the direction of the skis.
post #37 of 52

Dont get offended but are you a ski-instructor? The reason I aske you this is because what you are now describing as "open" is what previously has been described as "closed". Your description is right on the money with my skiing. So do I ski OPEN or CLOSED?
post #38 of 52
Jamie, you can't possibly do or even try the suggestions in these posts and know that you are doing them right while on your own. Your skiing looks good to me. There is nothing wrong with your skiing that an early lesson with a good instructor and lots and lots of mileage the rest of the season wouldn't allow you to advance a whole lot.

post #39 of 52
I`m not offended, and yes I am a ski instructer. I think we are just struggling to communicate about something that is a bit tricky to deal with in words. When you say that your body is "turned much in the downhill direction...about 20 degrees downhill from my direction of movement" I understand that as being fairly open to the hill; this may also be described as fairly countered, and not rotated. I should add that the term "rotation" generally refers to a twisting of the upper body initially in the same direction as the legs, but which tends to continue and eventually can bring the upper body around so that it starts to face a bit uphill. So with that understanding of rotation, you are certainly not rotated.

Anyway, I think that these comments are consistent with my previous remarks. I am sorry if what I am saying is bringing you confusion rather than clarity. I have that same experience sometimes in the forum.

post #40 of 52

I am not familiar with the terms OPEN/CLOSED. For me, the terms countered and rotated are interchangeable. In either case you are effectively facing away from the center of your turn. Thus at turn completion you are effectively facing downhill. And then you initiate your next turn with the inside foot leading the whole kinetic chain.

I realize that people use "rotate" to refer to those who rotate the upper body in the direction of the turn to force the skis to pivot. That is different. Those people end up facing the center of the turn and skidding.
post #41 of 52
There is something seriously wrong here. Why are the lights on in the middle of a blue sky day?

Otherwise, to this untrained eye, your static form looks good to me. I don't see much of the wedge that others are pointing out. As many pointed out, it is difficult to tell until one knows at what point of the turn you are engaged in, and towards which direction you are heading.
post #42 of 52
[quote=skiingman]I think there is a huge difference between pointing out to a skier that having their alignment checked isn't a bad idea, and surmising that there is an alignment issue from a single frame of early season skiing at low edge angle.

What do you see that makes you feel this is clearly an alignment issue?

Well, to start off...I am surmising from a single frame because that is what was given. From what I am seeing in the picture the medial aspect of the left knee is already 'inside' or medial to the medial malleolus of the left leg....yet the ski has not yet even approached an inside edge. If this is indeed what is happening......then I would make note of a possible alignment issue.
post #43 of 52



You could be trying to make this more complicated than it really is. I hope this does not make it worse. You're normal skiing is "open", just like Herr Knaus.
During the traverse, you're skiing stance is square.

My two lines explanation was a bit too simplified (I neglected to mention how tip lead factors in). You want to compare the lines between the hips to a line between the ski tips. When there is tip lead and the hips are angled the same as the angle between the tips, you are square. It does not matter what side of the skis the hips are on. The only thing matters is the angle of the hips/shoulders relative to the angle of the ski tips. If your skis are facing more across the hill and your hips and shoulder are faced more down the hill, you are open. If your skis are facing down the hill more than your shoulders, you are closed.

Here's another way of saying this using numbers using a traverse to the right as an example. If you have no tip lead the angle between the tips is zero degrees. If you had one ski totally in front of the other, the angle would be 180 degrees. If you had a some tip lead (the right ski is ahead of the left), let's call that the 20 degree angle. This would mean that a line drawn from the tip of the left ski to the tip of the right ski would form a 20 degree angle to a line drawn perpendicular (i.e. at a 90 degree angle) to the length of the left ski. Now, during a traverse to the right, your right hip will be slightly ahead of the left hip. If you draw a line from the left hip to the right hip and compared that to the line that is perpendicular to the left ski, you'll get another angle measurement. If that measurement is 20 degrees you are square (no counter), if the angle is > 20 degrees (your hips have more "lead" than the skis), then you are open. If the angle is < 20 degrees (your hips have less lead than your skis), then you are closed.

Please note that I did not introduce these terms into the discussion. I'm only trying to further explain what Canadian Guy introduced from LeMaster's terminology. The simple way to think about this is "is your upper body facing a different direction than your lower body?" For upper level skiers making turns, the only time the upper and lower body are both facing the same direction is when their skis are in the fall line. Otherwise upper level skiers would always be "open".

The only useful example of a closed stance that I can think of is Arlberg turns. This is where you do a huge windup of the upper body turning into the hill, prior to throwing your upper body into a huge unwind down the hill with the hope that ensuing lower body unwind that follows actually gets the skis to make a turn (as opposed to using the skis sidecut or movement of the foot to turn the ski).

It seems like this needs to be in the jargon thread.
post #44 of 52
Originally Posted by josseph
There is something seriously wrong here. Why are the lights on in the middle of a blue sky day?...
It's called "blowing out the electrons". Just like "blowing out the mice" in the snowmaking lines, it's something "they" have to do at the beginning of each season to clear the power lines.

Seriously, tho, RustyC - Ultra-clear comments!

Great seeing you at the R.I.M. last weekend.

Tom / PM
post #45 of 52

Thanks for your input. I dont know what the "jargon thread" is but this information has been very valuable for me. We all finally agree that I ski "open" and sometimes I do ski "squared" but this is mainly just lazyness or stiffness that come with age and even then my upper ski leads so Im facing 20deg downhill anyway. Only time Im completely "squared" is offcource when I do the transision in the middle of the turn, as all of you so rightfully pointed out here above, or when I go straight down the fall line.

However, I can think of one situation where I ski "closed" that has been bothering me allways and its probably a problem for all you other teachers as well and that is when we ski with a groupe of people following after us and we have to look back uphill at their turns over our upper shoulder in order to see how they ski.

Lately there has been a trend here in Finland to minimize the upper ski lead to cero and to stand 100% "squared". I dont understand this technique but since Im over 40 my opinion doesent matter much. My style of skiing "open" is considered outdated, oldfassioned and Austrian. I dont really know why since Knauss for instance is as "open" as one can be. So is Bodi, Palander and the rest of the WC skiiers. This would probably qualify for a new thread.
post #46 of 52



You're welcome!

If you turn your shoulders to look behind you to see your friends and you don't fall over, there's nothing an instructor can do to fix that.

I think the trend you're seeing in Finland is the same trend we've had here in the US. It's the trend from using a lot of counter to only using a little. Some people might see the new style as "zero", but it's really just less than what it used to be. This trend is driven by the capabilities of newer skis, so if you're stuff is a "few" (cough) years old, don't worry. And as you've observed, if you're doing some real high end skiing (like Herr Knaus), you'll tend to use a little more counter (cough again) than if you're cruising an intermediate run.
post #47 of 52
Originally Posted by therusty

I used three observations to support my speed conclusion:
1) the pattern of spray off the left ski pole tip
2) the amount of flex in the right ski
3) the amount of inclination relative to the apparent pitch of the slope and the assumption that this was dynamically balanced.

Fair enough?

Granted, there is no way to guarantee that these observations from a still photo are correct. #3 is a big assumption. James could have been going 2 miles an hour and fallen over in the next instant. I thought it would be polite to assume that this was not a trick post.

But then again, I purposely was "aggressive" in my analysis in order to attract exactly the kind of feedback you've given.

Good observations, therusty. And yes, one could guess on speed from these clues. But still I think it is really difficult to suggest all these changes I see people making without seeing the whole package, no? Again, let's see a video.-----Wigs
post #48 of 52
therusty - (cough) I hear you.... yeah, even old men like me (cough) can hold a carve (cough) on new skiis in a squared/rotated position going 10mph down a green slope.... unlike Knauss, I bet he couldent (cough)(cough)
post #49 of 52

Is there really a jargon thread in the forum?

post #50 of 52

Speed kills (stills)


Thanks. I was about to rip up my "certifiable movement analyst" card. I agree that seeing a video would make it far easier for us to analyze. Plus it would generate far more accurate assessments from the peanut gallery (myself especially) and provide an order of magnitude more value to the poster. But I do love a challenge.

We also need to remember that, for most people out there, posting a picture is far easier to do. But this raises an interesting dilemna. Do we want to encourage people to take the easy route (i.e. post stills) by even trying to do analyses of them? Or should we limit our still photo comments and "encourage" posting of videos instead? Since we're giving our advice out for free is it too much to ask people to make it easier for us and better for them?

Here's another twist. Following up on Nolo's "interesting service" thread, I've forked out the big $$$ for V1's professional software so that I can offer this online internet coaching thing. Once I'm up and running with this beast (I just got the software yesterday), I'm going to have an incentive to not give away online video analysis for free when I'm charging for it elsewhere, even though the V1 approach is a far more effective communications medium and can easily be seen as a "premium" approach compared to the "forum" approach. But it might also work out that video analysis here would be an effective tease to sell the online service.

BTW - I'll either bump up Nolo's thread or start a new one when I've got enough experience from the coaching side of "the service" to report anything useful. This could be something that other pros would be interested in doing and actually make money too. I've heard that the company is working with Rob Sogard. Stay tuned.
post #51 of 52
Canadian Guy,

I love this forum software. It's got all sorts of searching options. It's really easy to find the jargon thread.

BTW - RustyGuy is a real ski pro. TheRusty just does this for fun on weekends over a short season.
post #52 of 52

If you start making the big bucks doing this let me know. It might be a good way to make a littel money in the off season, no?-------Wigs
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