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extension/retraction vs. flexion/extension turns

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
What is your take on the differences and blending of these two movements?

After reading various comments in the thread on "release timing" I feel this conversation may give more clarity to that subject.

My general thoughts are that in the old days and old equipment we favored the flexion/extension end of the spectrum because we needed to use more active unweighting to change edges because skis didn't store as much energy to be able to take advantage of any rebound. Now a days we tend to be absorbing more of the energy created at the edge change and consiquently are more at the extension/retraction end of the spectrum. Darn, I am getting old.
post #2 of 18
It certainly would help to clarify if you would include the timing of the flexion and extension you are talking about, otherwise your comments seem very ambiguous (at least to me).


Thanks.
post #3 of 18
Thread Starter 
Si, that is kinda my point... the discussion on release timing has me wondering how the different people are interpreting the timing of the extension with the move of the cm. from the inside of one arc to the inside of the next. It seems there are different understandings of when and how this occurs.

I historically have looked at these two movement patterns as being at opposite ends of a spectrum.

the flexion/extension end of the spectrum the skier's cm. is moving up or extending AS the edges are changing (a more classic style) whereas the other end of the spectrum is the extension/retraction movement where the skier's cm. is moving closer to the feet as the edge change occurs (kinda replemond- like or absorbing the forces).

It seems that, as our equipment has evolved, our flexion extension movements have moved more toward the extension/retraction end of the spectrum because of the increased energy the newer skis create.

the extension at one end of this spectrum begins on the uphill edge where the extension on the other end of spectrum begins off the inside edge of the uphill ski.

that's all...

forgive me for I am very much a beginner at cyber skiing. I feel like I am jumping off a cornice by jumping into these forums but that is kinda the way I learned to ski. I will just leave blue streaks all over the snow until I get my feet under me! look forward to skiing with you!
post #4 of 18
If I read Bud correctly, he compares classic style of building/storing energy in the skis/muscles as the body flexes through the turn into the finish. This served as a wind-up to use rebound extension into the transition to direct the body mass away from the slope so as to unweight the skis so they could be more easily re-directed into the falline. This still works and has it's situational applications where nothing else will work.

Comtempory skiing reflects an extension thru the top of the arc of the CM to the inside with max extension around the falline. From there flexion begins (active or passive) allowing the CM to take a path across the ski's as their path arcs around and crosses under that of the CM, with max flexion occuring during the transition/edge-change.

Skiing either is still flex/extend/flex/extend.... it is the blending, timing, and the direction of the CM as a result of the movements that creates the contrast in outcomes.

Most skiers comfort zone is somewhere between these extreems. Their avaliable skiing options (intents) are limited by their avaliable movement blends and timing options.

Growth, learning and a larger menu of options becomes avaliable by exploring in both extreems such that you can choose from more intents, that then dictate your movement blends and timing of them.

mo options = mo fun
post #5 of 18
Bud, I agree with your description of the evolution of primary technique. Because of the mechanical properties of the new equipment, end of the turn extension of the outside leg has been supplanted with retraction as the weapon of choice.

Just realize that the spectrum you refer to is not limited to the choice of two opposite ends, it's multi sided. What you and I discussed (in the release thread), and I tried to differentiate between, were 2 separate options entirely different from the 2 spectrum bookends you identify here.

FASTMAN
post #6 of 18
When I talk about this with my students, I point out that all turns have some flexion nad extention in them. The ability to time these at different times in a turn is where versatility comes from and that we also need to think of the difference between both legs extending and flexing, and one leg extending as the other flexes (long leg short leg). This also adds versatility to our skiing. I might work from inside (uphill leg) extentions in pivots slips (moving the body down the hill and perpendicular to the slope) to, inside leg extentions in the bumps (same effect along with positive pressure control), to gentle (thanks Rick) inside leg extentions on the groomers at the bottom (early inside ski engagement and platform change), which just shows the full spectrum and use.

We might do retraction pivot slips and explore this usage in the bumps or on groomers, which reverses 180 degrees the timing. What I don't say is it's either one or the other, I talk about changing the use and timing depending on the application, terrain, or intent (thanks Arc). Later, RicB.
post #7 of 18
Thread Starter 
thanks again arcmeister, you so eloquently put into words my thoughts. fastman, I know this and is why I refered to the movements on a spectrum, knowing that there is a blending of the two ends. just like carving and pivoting, just like hot and cold on a bathroom faucet. I will have to read again the reference to "inside leg extensions" to make sure I am understanding it correctly. arcmeister...you should write a book, really I am certainly more touchy/feely and visual kinda guy and not too good with the pen/keyboard but the arcmeister has a gift.
post #8 of 18
Welcome to Epicski Bud,
there are many here that possess a gift with the keyboard. It never ceases to amaze me how much talent there is here.
And as you spend a bit more time, with how you ski and think about skiing, I'm sure you'll be right in there.

As a vote of confidence from someone who's spent some time here, Bud's a very skilled skier, not to mention bootfitter (he did my first foam liners out of his shop in Reno).

Maybe I'll see you at the demo day at the end of month, Bud.
If my name doesn't ring a bell, we skied a little bit together at an industry demo day at sugar bowl (i teach with Eric D's all mountain ski pros).

cheers,

Holiday
post #9 of 18
You should check out <youcanski.com>
ABSOLUTELY THE BEST HOW TO SITE...if you're having discussions with terminology problems, here's the dope.
Looking at the large number of posts form ottl and shh responding to tdk6 about pure carved turn tracks...
Your discussions would be better served if you would learn the turn phases and movements associated with them...and when to apply them...

Carving pure lines on a smooth shallow groomer is just the start- and is aided by the vector of gravity helping to pressure the skis into the snow...
As the slope gets steep gravity combines with THE CENTRIPITAL FORCE ( you can argue about whatever you want to call the force of direction change ) PURE CARVED TURNS GET REALLY HAIRY...getting steering angles from pivoting the legs gives more control over line.
This point gets summed up in SKI THE HILL- RACE THE FLATS.

Skidding is not skidding iIf used early and followed with a carved hook-up into Phase 3... it finds a place in Phase 2 - developing steering angles...
IF THE SKID IS AT THE ENTRY TO THE SURN IT WORKS IF TIS AT THE END OF THE TURN SOMETHINGS WRONG

Check out Bodie's launches and skids into 3-g's...in the last two years even the women are launching and turning their skis in the air -then picking up a clean entry into Phase 3.

Low body at exit of the turn -Down unweighting- occurs in order to avoid being fired into the air off the staight outside leg from the previous Phase 3...The two G's that the turn finished with need somewhere to go. ABSORB THEM
Up unweighting is way too slow to deal with early hook up ...OK if you have lots of time and are not in a hurry to start a direction change...like when you are to tired to bother with big g-forces.

Stable, quiet upper body independent from the lower body position allows you to extend the legs into the ski in late Phase 2 IN ORDER TO PRESSURE THE SKI early...way before the fall line...

Looook carefuly at the ronlemaster site and see how TALL - occurs in Phase 3 to let the skeleton deal with 2 g's in the turn.
If the world cup dudes and dudets look tall in Phase 2 then they've been launched...

Lead change/sagital split...try to pressure the insde ski as much as possible...WITHOUT BANKING...shoulders hips are better level...FACE THE G-FORCES....ANGULATION RESULTS

SNOW PLOW WEDGIES...steering angle's built in so pick up the clean carving edge and then pendulum your lower body back and forth underneath you...simple except that there is no skidding
only pure carve tracks.

HOW MUCH SNOW OFF THE SKIS...HOW ABOUT LOOKING AT WHERE ITS COMING FROM...
UP IN THE FOREBODY TO THE TAIL ...LOOKS LIKE A RIPPING CARVE TO ME..
HOW MANY ANGELS ON A PIN...USELESS POINT OF DICKUSSION AT FOURTY MPH.
ALSO TOO SMALL A SAMPLE FOR A PROCESS OVER TIME AND OVER A TIMED RUN
post #10 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by g-force
You should check out <youcanski.com> ABSOLUTELY THE BEST HOW TO SITE...if you're having discussions with terminology problems, here's the dope. ... Looking at the large number of posts form ottl and shh responding to tdk6 about pure carved turn tracks...Your discussions would be better served if you would learn the turn phases and movements associated with them...and when to apply them...
1) Greg? (and, no, I don't mean Helluva)

2) Why did you post essentially identical material at least two other times, in other threads?

3) "form (sic) ottl (sic) and shh" (sic) - If you mean, "from Ott and SSH", since Ott has probably 65 or 70 years of skiing under his belt, and Steve has 30+, I suspect that they know the "turn phases and movements associated with them" quite well. BTW, what is your background?

Tom / PM

PS - I wonder if the "sics" above were caused by a few "hics" (ie, imbibing one too many last night)?
post #11 of 18
Interesting site g-force.

Looked at the Core concept of downhill skiing section by Leonid Feldman-very intriguing. The diagrams are right out of the PSIA's Alpine Technical Manual. Many of the pictures are just reshoots pictures in the same book and the verbage a direct copy. Didn't see either of the two individuals listed on the site shown as contributors to the PSIA manual.
post #12 of 18
Hi Mike - Your comment above triggered my memory that apparently Greg did have an article published in The Professional Skier. A copy/modification of it is on his website:

http://www.youcanski.com/english/coaching/slalom.htm

If you look one line up from the end of the very first paragraph of the article, he makes a statement which uses the phrase, "...the suggital (sic) (for/aft) split...". Interestingly enough, Mr. G-force uses the same, rarely encountered phrase (at least in skiing) about 60% of the way through his recent set of nearly equivalent posts. If you search Epic archives for the word "sagittal" (or "sagital" (sic)), you will only find a handful of instances of its previous use on Epic. Many are in a thread by Jeff Bergeron on bootfitting (and I seriously doubt it is him), and one is by Rusty where he also refers to the use of the term, "sagital", (sic) by GregG. FWIW, the term "sagittal" is fairly commonly used in anatomy as well as by the mfgrs of medical imaging equipment.

Tom / PM
post #13 of 18
The word is spelled "sagittal."
post #14 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhysicsMan
Hi Mike - Your comment above triggered my memory that apparently Greg did have an article published in The Professional Skier. A copy/modification of it is on his website:

http://www.youcanski.com/english/coaching/slalom.htm

If you look one line up from the end of the very first paragraph of the article, he makes a statement which uses the phrase, "...the suggital (sic) (for/aft) split...". Interestingly enough, Mr. G-force uses the same, rarely encountered terminology (at least in skiing) about 60% of the way through his recent set of nearly equivalent posts. If you search Epic archives for the word "sagital", you will only find 8 instances of its previous use on Epic. Most are in a thread by Jeff Bergeron on bootfitting (and I seriously doubt it is him), and one is by Rusty where he also refers to the use of the term sagital by GregG. FWIW, the term "sagital" is fairly commonly used in anatomy as well as by the mfgrs of medical imaging equipment.

Tom / PM
Sounds like another dog-gone mystery about to be solved. Stay tuned for the next episode of Who The Fox Hat.
post #15 of 18
Whoops!!!! :blush: Thanks, Nolo - I fixed it above, re-did the search, etc. Same conclusion.

Tom / PM
post #16 of 18
I list medical secretary on my checkered resume, PM.
post #17 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikewil
Interesting site g-force.

Looked at the Core concept of downhill skiing section by Leonid Feldman-very intriguing. The diagrams are right out of the PSIA's Alpine Technical Manual. Many of the pictures are just reshoots pictures in the same book and the verbage a direct copy. Didn't see either of the two individuals listed on the site shown as contributors to the PSIA manual.
Even those articles by others don't show copyright information. Oops. This is illegal, even on the Internet. And I suspect that Yahoo! would recognize that as a violation of their AUP (acceptable use policy). You might want to either note the permission to republish or remove the plagerism.

(Yes, I play a ski instructor at times, but I have pretty significant Internet experience--including some directly related to Internet law.)
post #18 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by g-force
You should check out <youcanski.com>
ABSOLUTELY THE BEST HOW TO SITE...
You are kidding, right? I decided to spend the time to look through the pages of the site. Apart from improperly attributed or plagerized articles from people other than the two site owners, I found nothing at all useful on the site. Certainly one will learn far more--including from multiple disagreeing viewpoints--by digging through the forums here.

It's certainly not perfect here, of course, and there is too much vilification of various perspectives for my liking, but the information is here and there are many experts from whom to learn (with far more experience than the two site owners there).
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