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Wall Slide Holds

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
Are wall slide holds still one of the recommended Isometric exercises for skiers and what should my goal in time be. I'm currently at 1 minute holds, 3 reps, 2 times a day.

Also doing straight leg lifts and short swing arc leg lifes at 5 lbs.

DC
post #2 of 24
A few years ago at Whistler, one of the instructors was talking about how wall slide holds are responsible for static skiing. This has become a common opinion of many sports medicien experts. To make this exercise more dynamic and sport -specific, do small up and down movements, rather than holding isometrically.
post #3 of 24
Thread Starter 
Thanks LM.

Except for the fact that I'm doing wall slides strictly for strengthening after my injury, do you think they are ok? It's combined with total gym workouts, leg presses from full flexion to full extension at the highest incline (60% of body weight?),
Toe lifts (also at the highest incline) and then one legged leg presses and toe lifts at around 35-40% of body weight.

The total Gym workouts are slow controlled slides both up and down. 3 sets of 10 reps each with rest between each.

DC
post #4 of 24
Thread Starter 
Do you have any more data or articles regarding static wall slides and Sports related rehab? I'd love to share it with my current PT. He is a sports PT but is not a skier. Maybe some more resources to help us both
post #5 of 24
Dchan - my pre season training included them..... if they are easy try them with a dynadisc.... or on 1 leg (I used to do these when I was more disciplined about off-season)

In the last season my trainer was a skier as well... we did them plus a few moving ones etc etc... spread out over the training sessions - ie different ones each week but cycling through the types....
post #6 of 24
Lisa Densmore gives an excellent explaination of the pitfalls of wall sits in this article:
http://www.active.com/story.cfm?story_id=5335&sidebar=23&category=winter sports

This section of the article focuses on the more important points:

"How about the age-old wall-sit? The wall-sit has the oldest, most widespread reputation for ski conditioning, but it is a controversial one. Some skiers especially mogul skiers swear by it, but it has its pitfalls.

"While it does strengthen the quadriceps, the knees bear the most of the load, especially if you hold them at 90 degrees. If you already have a knee injury, forget this one. In addition, the wall-sit positions your hips and torso well behind your feet. In skiing, you hips should be over your feet. Finally, it is a static (isometric) exercise.

"Isometrics strengthen the muscle at only the joint angle plus and minus three degrees," says Ron Kipp. "Therefore, if wall-sits are performed at 90 degrees of knee flexion, the athlete is really only getting stronger at 87 to 93 degrees of knee flexion, not exactly the range of motion that is used in skiing."


There is another crucial point here. The wall sit is a quadricep isolation. One of the major factors that predisposes someone to ACL injury is having quads that are too much stronger than the hamstrings. Unfortunately, this muscle imbalance is all too common in most people. To do an exercise that isolates the quadriceps merely exacerbates the problem.


Since skiing, and other sports involve an integrated use of the muscular system, trainers who are up to date in their certification prefer exercises that train the muscels to work as an integrated system, preferably in a manner similar to the sport.. The biomechanics of injury prevention justify this approach. Think of an ACL tear. At the risk of oversimplification, the quads activate excessively, causing too much extension {hyperextension}. The overly stretched hamstrings are too weak to counteract this extension. POP!!!!


I am presently taking advantage of my very first skiing or fitness injury by analyzing how bad it could have been, if I had some significant muscle imbalances. On Wednesday at Loveland, I skied over something that through me backwards. It came as a real surprise, because a moment before, I had been more relaxed than usual. For some reason, I used some incredibly stupid biomecanics to avoid the fall. My hands went up instead of foward.: As if I didn't know better, damnit!


Fortunately, my muscles are smarter than my brain, and I managed not to fall backwards. Instead I fell sideways. When Mkiewil and Katy came over to me, they looked rather serious. Apparantly, this was precisely the type of fall that could tear an ACL. Instead, it looks like I have a minor MCL strain.
So what would have happened if my quads were too much stronger than my hamstrings? I would have fallen backwards. What if my adductors were flexible, but not strong? I'd probabaly be looking at an MCL tear, not a strain. I've also moved away from the gym rat abductor/adductor machine, and am now doing more closed chain ab/ad exercises that integrate the hamstrings and quads.
post #7 of 24
Wobble board, bongo board, yoga ball, Bosu.

All of these are great for a leg or knee injury.

I do squats with a yoga ball on my lower back against a wall.

It is more of a dynamic wall slide.
post #8 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisamarie
... I've also moved away from the gym rat abductor/adductor machine, and am now doing more closed chain ab/ad exercises that integrate the hamstrings and quads.
Hi Lisamarie,
I use those machines in the gym all the time. Can you give a link that describes the type of exercises you are describing .... "closed chain ab/ad execises".

I currently don't have a muscular imbalance (according to my sports med. doc.), but I do have a hamstring strain from long runs while training for the Chicago marathon. I do, however, feel like my quads get a lot more work than the hamstrings and am always looking for my integrated exercises.

Thanks,
Jason
post #9 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan
It's combined with total gym workouts, leg presses from full flexion to full extension at the highest incline (60% of body weight?),
Toe lifts (also at the highest incline) and then one legged leg presses and toe lifts at around 35-40% of body weight.

The total Gym workouts are slow controlled slides both up and down. 3 sets of 10 reps each with rest between each.
dchan,

Do add some speed work as the slow controlled work will build slow-twitch tissue, not fast twitch tissue. You will get stronger, but your leg speed will slow down.

If you can, I don't know your physical capabilities at this time, try the stationary cycle. Something with a heart rate monitor that will adjust stress to keep your heart rate constant. If you can, pedal at 100 rpm for 30 minutes. Any slower, and again the slow-twitch fibres get targetted. 100+ rpm will create more fast twitch, and work the neural recruitment paths so that you'll maintain leg speed and agility.

Your heart rate could be either 65-70% of max (fat burn) or 85% of max (cardio). Studies have suggested that 70-80% does not work very well at either. Also, with cardio work, they have suggested that 30 minutes gives you the most bang for your efforts. Diminishing returns after 35 minutes, and poor returns prior to 25. With respect to cardio, the bulk of the benefits occurs from 25 to 30 minutes.

Make sure you get clearance from a real doctor to do this much work before you work out. That applies to everyone.

Cheers!
post #10 of 24
If you look to the eastern martial arts, you will find that most include some form of stance exercises which are simply postures that are held for a period of time. There is no wall support so it requires both the agonist and antagonist to be engaed, and they don't do just one they will rotate among several. In fact any form work can stopped and held for a Jan jang (western pronunciation) exercise. I thin kthe success of these is due to the fact that all balance is directed down through the feet, requireing the muscles to work in harmony. And as we know, martial artists have the lowest incidence of knee injury.

Very wide stanced squats (horse stance) with movement from one stance leg to the other will work the abd/adductors, holding the position for five to thirty seconds, repeating till tired. If they are wide enough to allow one leg to straighten then you are gettng a good workout. Stay low as you move very slowly from one stance leg to the other. Add some upperbody and core into it by imagining holding a very large ball between your hands, and rotaing one hand down by your ankle of the straight leg as you move back and forth. Later, RicB.

PS, Yes when in doubt always consult a DR.
post #11 of 24
According to DR William J. Evans, a Nasa researcher, utilizing an eccentric workout, conditions both the slow and fast twitch at the same time. Eccentrics done in a slow deliberate speed it builds stronger and longer muscle fibre of both types. At least that is what the Nasa reseach found. So I would say that it doesn't require fast movement to build fast twitch fibre conditioning, but a good workout should include use of the muscles in some way close to the speed they are require in a sports skill. Later, RicB.
post #12 of 24
RicB,

I did not know that about eccentric work! Thanks!
post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
If you look to the eastern martial arts, you will find that most include some form of stance exercises which are simply postures that are held for a period of time. There is no wall support so it requires both the agonist and antagonist to be engaed, and they don't do just one they will rotate among several. In fact any form work can stopped and held for a Jan jang (western pronunciation) exercise. I thin kthe success of these is due to the fact that all balance is directed down through the feet, requireing the muscles to work in harmony. And as we know, martial artists have the lowest incidence of knee injury.

Very wide stanced squats (horse stance) with movement from one stance leg to the other will work the abd/adductors, holding the position for five to thirty seconds, repeating till tired. If they are wide enough to allow one leg to straighten then you are gettng a good workout. Stay low as you move very slowly from one stance leg to the other. Add some upperbody and core into it by imagining holding a very large ball between your hands, and rotaing one hand down by your ankle of the straight leg as you move back and forth. Later, RicB.

PS, Yes when in doubt always consult a DR.
RicB,
Horse stance! I never thought I would see that on the ski forum. If I could just get to a five minute perfect horse stance in my Kung Fu class! I do plenty of shifting horse stances and shifting floating stances, as well. Maybe I have already been getting the ad/ab dynamic workout?

JS
post #14 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
If you can, I don't know your physical capabilities at this time, try the stationary cycle. Something with a heart rate monitor that will adjust stress to keep your heart rate constant. If you can, pedal at 100 rpm for 30 minutes. Any slower, and again the slow-twitch fibres get targetted. 100+ rpm will create more fast twitch, and work the neural recruitment paths so that you'll maintain leg speed and agility.
Thanks. I'm on my bike 30 min almost daily. some days its 2 15 min sessions some days straight 30 min. Some days I go out for a ride to the beach and back or something like that 3-7 miles. (and a rest day every few days)

On the trainer stand I run at a high cadence. I don't know about 100 rpm but it's probably pretty close. My Doc has given me full clearance to go as hard as my body will allow. (Listen to your body (pain))

Don't have a HRM yet but I'm pretty sure I'm in that target range.
post #15 of 24
Thread Starter 
LM, Thanks for the info. I'll print it out and give it to my PT.

DC
post #16 of 24
Thread Starter 
Horse stance. Heh..

Last season I had a Tae Kwon Doe Instructor (actually the Grand master) as a first time ski student for a private lesson. He started with someone else but with the langage barrier they gave him to me. (I don't speak korean either but oh well) After a little bit of work I resorted to what little martial arts training I had and got him to stand in a horse stance. He was trying to put his feet together and stand straight up. (not sure why) but as soon as I told him horse stance he got it.

Also I've used this for kids that ski standing too tall or static that are also taking karate or kung fu. Get them to pretend they someone is trying to sweep one leg. If they are taking a passive form of martial arts they lighten that leg and the weight transfers to the other. Instant turn If they are taking an active or strong form of martial arts then often they weight that leg to keep it from getting swept and instant turn the other way
post #17 of 24

Wall slide/ride holds?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dchan
Are wall slide holds still one of the recommended Isometric exercises for skiers and what should my goal in time be...

DC
I read the title and all I could think was dchan doing this: Wall ride

I've got to start acting my age, and get out of the park... :
post #18 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Js137
Hi Lisamarie,
I use those machines in the gym all the time. Can you give a link that describes the type of exercises you are describing .... "closed chain ab/ad execises".

I currently don't have a muscular imbalance (according to my sports med. doc.), but I do have a hamstring strain from long runs while training for the Chicago marathon. I do, however, feel like my quads get a lot more work than the hamstrings and am always looking for my integrated exercises.

Thanks,
Jason
Hi jason'

While I still use the abductor/adductor machine for my "vanity workouts," my sport-specific exercises also include closed chain exercises, which involve the foot being in a fixed position. This limits the amount of shearing force on the knee, and is far more functional. Unless you're a freestyler, your feet are usually on the snow.

My ski-specific workout for adductors consists of the
Fitter SRF Board
http://www.fitter1.com/srf.html
A slide board
Since one of the functions of the adductors is isometric stabilization of the knee and pelvis while performing other movements, I sometimes add isometric adductor exercises to another exercise. For example, when doing bridge work or squats, I may use a Pilates Fitness Circle for isometric contraction.

For abduction, I use the
Pro Fitter
http://www.fitter1.com/exercises_pf.html scroll down to the power thrust
Tube walking: Place an exercise band around your ankles. Side step 8 counts to your right and 8 counts to your left.

For muscle imbalance between the hamstrings and quads, I still think the Stability Ball Hamstring curl is the best.
http://www.onlinefit.com/health/index.cfm/Exercise/381
Why? Your hamstrings and glutes have to work simultaneously, while your deep core muscles act as stabilizers. You'll note that the hip flexors are in a stretched position. This is very important! Many people have tight hip flexors, leading to a factor known as "reciprocal inhibition." If your flexors are tight, your glutes are weak. Thus, in any exercise requiring the hamstrings and glutes to work together, your hamstrings, which are already much weaker than the quads, have to carry the load.

That's why they end up hurting are getting strained. In the stability ball hamstring curl, your quads and hip flexors are being stretched, causing them to work less hard, and your hamstrings and glutes to work harder.

Hope you didn't want a simple answer!
post #19 of 24
This may be a bit aggressive for dchan:

I usually train my hamstrings first (using both weights and the stability ball as explained by Lisamarie above.

Then for the quads I do stability ball squats. I have seen Picaboo do such squats. You need to do them near something that allows you to get up on the ball and start, as well as provide a safety exit in case you lose balance. I do the stability ball squats with the ball between bars that are chest high (where one does dips for the triceps). This is a very difficult and effective exercise, since your balance and core strength are key in remaining on the ball while squating up and down.

If this is your first time, hold on to the stable object (bars, whatever) while going up/down. Even this approach requires you to fight for balance on the ball.
post #20 of 24
Respectfully, please keep in mind that the risk/reward ratio for stability ball squats is pretty unfavorable, especially for someone like d-chan who is doing post re-hab. Keep in mind if you do them, the # of ACL injuries that have occured from this exercise is exceedingly high!

I remember when I saw Picabo performing these. As I recall, that year, her skiing performance fared pretty low.

The Bosu squats are a better alternative, especially since a Bosu bares more of a resembalce to ski terrain than a stability ball.
post #21 of 24
Lisamarie,

I agree, this is not for everyone. The only reason I feel comfortable doing them is because I have the bars to grab if I lose it. If my gym would have a Bosu balance trainer, I would definitely use it instead. I could buy a Bosu, of course, but I never train at home and bringing it to the gym is too much trouble.
post #22 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Js137
RicB,
Horse stance! I never thought I would see that on the ski forum. If I could just get to a five minute perfect horse stance in my Kung Fu class! I do plenty of shifting horse stances and shifting floating stances, as well. Maybe I have already been getting the ad/ab dynamic workout?

JS
Wonder what Rowdy Yates would have to say about this. Yee, Haw!

A five minute horse stance would a big achievment for me. I can hold some more upright stances for five minutes but not a horse stance. I do like the shifting horse stance very much. Later, RicB.
post #23 of 24
Dchan, cool. My training is only soft t'ai chi chuan. Later, RicB.
post #24 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
RicB,

I did not know that about eccentric work! Thanks!
You're welcome. I wish he explained this one aspect in more detail in his book. His version of eccentrics is a six count against gravity. It can be a workout.

You know have a good knowledge in these things, you too LM, so why does this train both types of muscle fibre? I was thinking it was because it creates a greater demand on the spacing of the contractile "hairbrushes" or "row boats" so that the muscle is forced to use every fibre available. Or maybe it is simply because all fibres are getting longer and so are resisting lengthening. What he does say is thatfrom the increased damage done within the muscles, this has been found to be the quickest way to increase the length and available power in a muscle. The muscle is forced to add more sarcomeres and contrile units to compensate for the damage and the new demands. Interesting stuff, what do you folks think. Later, RicB.
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