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Release Timing - Page 3

post #61 of 79
Whew! my head is spinning? It sure is a challenge to put sensations into words isn't it? I agree wholeheartedly with the arcmeister though. He explains the sensation well. To me the first committment to the new turn direction is when my flexion begins (cm. starts to get closer to feet). At this point I begin to "give in" to the forces that are pulling on me, though I have not released any edges yet. I agree with the idea of teaching turns beginning and ending in the fall line vs. a traverse to promote fluidity. As a past examiner I have always had a pet peave that a level III instructor should be able to demonstrate this kind of fluidity in their turns and not show any movements up and away from the new turn disrupting the flow. I believe this is the feeling we all strive for and is one of if not the ultimate goal of aspiring skiers. At this point you are not fighting, compensating, consciously thinking...you are flowin baby, your yin meets your yang. Gotta get back to work.
post #62 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman
I agree with the idea of teaching turns beginning and ending in the fall line vs. a traverse to promote fluidity.
I don't.

First, it generates confusion. Making a turn, in the minds of most people, is not an event which results in no ultimate pre turn to post turn change of direction of travel. Most consider a turn as a single arc executed for the purpose of changing their direction of travel, not as 2 half arcs with a transition in the middle that leaves them going in the same direction. Most consider that 2 turns. Promoting such a foreign concept just adds to the difficulty of facilitating student comprehension.

And to what purpose? To, as you suggest, promote smoother transitions? Won't help. The only thing that will promote better/different types of transitions is focusing on the transition itself and working on the foundational skiing skills that will allow the successful execution of the desired transition. Placing the transition in the middle of a turn, through definition, will not do much to enhance the quality of that transition, or increase the ability to perform variable forms of transitions as desired. Only skill development will effectively do that.

FASTMAN
post #63 of 79
Thread Starter 
I will sort'a agree with both.

I use the falline-to-falline strategy with skiers who show a break in their flow thru the transition, usually because of their "end a turn, then start a new turn" perspective that interfears with their connecting energy from one arc to the next.

However, as skiers we are often ski linking turns that are not symetrical to the falline, do to chosen direction or sidehill terrain.
I will frequently have students ski a series of turns on a path diagonal to the falline to encourage perceptual vs. habitual skiing, challenging them to adjust to the variations of the transitions. Skiing a low-g turn into the falline that transitions to a high-g turn out of it, completed perpendicular to the falline and transitioning to a low-g turn back into the falline. This is a great way to increase adaptability and be prepared for the need to make solid turns and keep the flow going regardless of how the terrain changes.
post #64 of 79

I like that thought

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
BigE, I do see a distinction between making (skier-driven) and letting (force-driven) in the two. It's a pretty nuanced distinction having to do with the disruption of what Fastman calls the balance equation. In that regard, I see EWS as tending to be more active (in Bob Barnes' definition) and ILE tending to be more passive (same def.) and both being more active than the so-called Perfect Turn.

I see the three occupying different points on a Make/Let Continuum, with ILE somewhere between EWS and PT.
I like the whole concept of Make/Let continuum. It's a good way to think of modifying the same general concept for different turn desires/outcomes.

In the EWS or SP, the skier is not waiting for the CM momentum to help effect the transition, but is actively helping it along by removing the base of support rather early.

But, where the weight would be 50/50 in frame 18, the skier would simply match leg length with the CM movement over the skis. Of course, something has to get this going, and that something can be gradual release of pressure of the downhill ski. In the EWS turn, this removal of pressure if full.

Part of the difference of which to use where for me is where I am. On a blue in "cruiser turns", the gradual release is all you need. For short radius, though, the gradual pressure release doesn't compensate for the slowing CM movement down the hill enough and the full EWS release helps things keep up.

In powder, which I only have one day in, I'm assuming the gradual release is the way to go as you want to maintain more even pressure between both skis all the time.

It definately can be described as let vs make. EWS turn does not feel like a normal turn to most people I would think. It's a very active move.

I'm still pondering the leg extension turn. When I do what I'm calling an EWS turn or the Super Phantom turn, the new outside ski lengthens to match the turns development. I'm not standing on it or lengthening it early. But, I'll go back and read the posts and see if I can get it.
post #65 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
Three questions on the transfer of the POP:

Is inside leg extension the ONLY way to transfer the POP?

What of the outside leg collapse/relaxation from the EWS turn definition which forces the inside leg to bear the weight?

Is there a single act that gets the whole ball rolling (eg. outside leg flexion) or does the flexion of the outside leg and extension of the inside one happen simultaneously?

Cheers!
Hey BigE, pretty good interpretation of my description of INSIDE LEG EXTENSION. You seem to be getting a good grasp of the finer points of it.

I hope you've begun to experiment with this on snow. I've found that to perform the move, and feel the results, provides an immediate comprehension of the sensations and benefits it provides. Trying to comprehend all this from a written description can be a challenge, but make one of these transitions on snow and immediately all becomes very clear.

Just listen to Nolo expound over the feeling of uninterrupted contact with the snow if offers, and listen to those who watch her ski exclaim on how effortless she seems to flow from turn to turn, and you'll understand why we are such fans of this transition. Everyone I've introduced this movement to on snow have pretty consistently displayed a reaction of excitement and surprise at the feeling of connection through the transition and the cleanness/smoothness of engagement it provides.



Now, to your questions:

I think I can answer all three questions with one comprehensive response. Inside leg extension as an isolated event is not the only way to transfer POP to the old inside ski, but in my opinion it's the best way for this method of transition.

Why? In a high edge turn the inside leg (knee) is extremely flexed. Such a flexed joint is not a strong mechanism for supporting the levels of force were dealing with in these high energy turns. If the first move were a relaxation of the old outside leg the forces transferred to the old inside leg would drive it into an even deeper state of flexion before it gathered the means to support them.

By making extension of the old inside leg the first move, you are in effect creating an immediate transfer of pressure/forces to an extending/strengthening leg. This is a much better situation. By employing this methodology a simultaneous focus on a relaxation of the old outside leg is really not needed. The moment the extension of the old inside leg is initiated pressure is automatically removed from the old outside ski, which immediately relieves it from duty. It's left with nothing to do but relax.


FASTMAN
post #66 of 79

ah - I guess I'm really doing the leg extension turn after all

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
By making extension of the old inside leg the first move, you are in effect creating an immediate transfer of pressure/forces to an extending/strengthening leg. This is a much better situation. By employing this methodology a simultaneous focus on a relaxation of the old outside leg is really not needed. The moment the extension of the old inside leg is initiated pressure is automatically removed from the old outside ski, which immediately relieves it from duty. It's left with nothing to do but relax.


FASTMAN
My first thought in what I do is to "stand" on the LTE of the inside ski. Except, I don't really stand on it because doing that while at the bottom of the turn, means I instantly am moving over my skis because I did this. But, that's my mental cue to switch into the new turn. This also creates force on that new outside ski of the new turn to get it engaged as soon as the body moves over the skis. Good explaination. I can see where this has been controversial, at least in my history reading here, because people could interpet this as a step up.

Nolo, you were right. This "leg extension" turn is what I was talking about. Easy to show, lots of ways to misunderstand in "forum" land.
post #67 of 79
Played with this yesterday some along with just getting my snow legs back again.

Some observations.

First, the extention as I felt it didn't need to have great power behind it, in fact it seemed more effective when it was a smooth, slow and deliberate extention. It was an activation that, as I felt it, was really keeping me from puting in more effort in my skiing a moment later.

Second the extention utilized the natural mechanics in my feet in a way that preprimes the foot for support and gets the ski engaged. The feel is one of the foot rolling from the little toe side to the big toe side earlier. Didn't mean I couldn't skid from there if I wanted, but it did enhance my feel for the new outside skis inside edge. It gets the stucture of the foot, ankle, tibia, femur, and pelvis, all working together, all keying off the basic mechanics of the foot. This made balance really a given, no matter what was coming at me.

The other thing I was paying attention to was how my upper body was reacting and behaving, especially whether the I sensed my head rising too much through the transition. Done with a smooth extention my core and upperbody stayed in a very smooth, relatively horizontal plane. Fun fun fun on the first day out. Later, RicB.
post #68 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastman
By making extension of the old inside leg the first move, you are in effect creating an immediate transfer of pressure/forces to an extending/strengthening leg. This is a much better situation. By employing this methodology a simultaneous focus on a relaxation of the old outside leg is really not needed. The moment the extension of the old inside leg is initiated pressure is automatically removed from the old outside ski, which immediately relieves it from duty. It's left with nothing to do but relax.
Thank you! The inside leg extension is what I was thinking at the outset was first, as the inside knee is already fully flexed...

But, since recreational skiers don't normally have the edge angles that high, and their inside knee is not rolled up under the body then their transfer of POP can be slow and often incomplete. Which can result in the spread-eagle face plant.

So, I suggested the relaxation of the outside ski be the first move -- the inside ski has no choice but to pick up the slack, and the transfer of POP will be complete. In 97% of all skiing, the inside leg can handle it, since it is not rolled up under the skier.

If everything was done correctly, ie. CM released early in the turn, at the right time, and resulting line is deemed acceptable, there's nothing left to do but ride the ski as the CM crosses over and the ski rolls from little toe edge to big toe edge into the next turn. Effortless and efficient. This makes completion of one control phase = initiation of the next turn, and the transition becomes an artifact of ski analysis....

This was where I was about to point out "Aha! Relaxation of the outside leg is a primary movement!" but as you reminded us, this does not work for the highest edge angles. So, it can't be that pot at the end of the rainbow.

But what about ILE? Can extension be considered a primary movement? I think so, assuming the other leg does relax to avoid the uncertainty in transfer of the POP. For high edge angles, you write:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastman
The moment the extension of the old inside leg is initiated pressure is automatically removed from the old outside ski, which immediately relieves it from duty. It's left with nothing to do but relax
I'd suggest that for lower edge angles it must relax, to avoid an incomplete transfer of the POP. And to "let" the CM move across, as opposed to push it across with the extending leg.

This is a very advanced move, since it is netiher fully "make"/"let". It looks like one "makes" the POP transfer by concentric muscle activity (extension of the inside leg) but "lets" the CM cross over (by relaxing the outside leg and hips). Got to get this to the hill!

I won't be able to try any of these things for another month! I have to be content with cyber skiing until then.

Cheers!
post #69 of 79
Quote:
The moment the extension of the old inside leg is initiated pressure is automatically removed from the old outside ski, which immediately relieves it from duty. It's left with nothing to do but relax.
That's my experience and understanding too, Fastman.

Quote:
Second the extention utilized the natural mechanics in my feet in a way that preprimes the foot for support and gets the ski engaged.
Interesting word: preprimes. Could you expand on what you mean by this, Ric?
post #70 of 79

just a thought for you

Hi Nolo,
read your post, just a thought.... instead of starting your extension up and away from the intended turn direction on the uphill edge, try beginning the move across the skis first then beginning your extension. This subtle move makes a huge difference in a fluid edge change. In other words change edges then start extension vs. start extending then change edges. Any extension move onto the uphill edge is a move away from the new turn.
post #71 of 79
I respectfully beg to differ, Bud. In this technique, the extension pressure tips the ski over to the inside edge. This is not a dysfunctional movement away from the upcoming turn. Fastman explains it well. Try it, you'll like it!
post #72 of 79

make a turn or link turns? that is the question

The idea of linking turns fluidly seems to me to mandate that we do not think of turns as starting and ending in a traverse. Much of the discussion has been centered on the moment of edge change and cross-over which in reality the part of a turn that gives MOST skiers the most challenge. Consequently changing the way MOST people think about a turn may be beneficial?

It's semantics but, by not creating any mental pause in the turn transition tends to aid fluidity. Once the turn has initiated the belly of the turn is easy for most until the intent to begin the next edge change, this is where more deficiencies in technique arise and thus the topic of more discussions.

Try it... You will tend to think more holistically about the sensations you are trying to feel in the edge change. You will tend to visualize what you are going to do before you do it because there isn't time to mentally think about it while you are doing it. It happens too fast and fluidly, or...it should!

Reading Fastman's quote, I may be missing something but, early weight transfer and extension is all peachy if....the cm. is going the correct direction. Some tend to think they need to ADD more of something to change the path while others get it moving by taking away something. PSIA's centerline concept seems to get things moving by taking away resistance (ie: flattening or releasing the inside edge of downhill ski) In order to do this in a higher level turn the cm. starts it's move while the skis are still turning below the torso. Should the skier begin his/her extension before the cm. has moved inside the new outside ski's inside edge, it would seem to me, the fluid path of the cm. is interrupted. Again it may just be my misinterpretation of Faastman's quote.
post #73 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
That's my experience and understanding too, Fastman.



Interesting word: preprimes. Could you expand on what you mean by this, Ric?
Yeah, what do I mean by that? I was in a hurry this morning. I should have simply said primed. The foot moves into a loaded response where the foot pronates and does roll to the big toe side and stabilizes there, which leaves the pressure directed up through the tibia which has actually moved slightly medialy where it is connected to the ankle, as well as the ankle also. For me this eliminates the need to tip the foot and ankle as the imbalance of the forces on the foot allow the natural mechnics of the foot to achieve this, and the foot is ready to accept whatever is dealt it in this loaded position. At the same time my body is responding to the imbalance and moving across the skis into the next.

Timing and rate need t obe adjusted. Too early or forcefull, and it can disrupt the flow, and too late, if I wait after the flexing of the outside leg, I feel like I'm playing catch up to reestablish my connection and reengage the foot. I think the real emphasis is that one foot or the other is always primed and engaged. The earlier extention allows one foot to take the engagement away from the other, smoothly and progressively. Later, RicB.
post #74 of 79

Leg extension = Step up = Wrong direction --- or not

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
I respectfully beg to differ, Bud. In this technique, the extension pressure tips the ski over to the inside edge. This is not a dysfunctional movement away from the upcoming turn. Fastman explains it well. Try it, you'll like it!
That term leg extension. It implys a step up. As soon as people see this in their minds eye they seem to be thinking something negative to the flow.

The key is that you have also removed the base of support as soon as you do this which in fact helps move your CM over your skis. You can't focus on 1/2 of the movement pattern to the exclusion of the other 1/2. Both happen at the same time. If you took BB's pressure diagram the pressure is not equal at frame 18 but mostly on the uphill ski, and got there before frame 18 in fact.

I'm going to try to find a good 2nd source as this sounds just like the SP turn I was taught. Maybe some stop action stuff. See if we are talking about the same turn type. Jay posted something like that a bit ago. I'll see if I can dig it up.
post #75 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicB
Played with this yesterday some along with just getting my snow legs back again.

Some observations.

First, the extention as I felt it didn't need to have great power behind it, in fact it seemed more effective when it was a smooth, slow and deliberate extention.
Great observation Ric. The rate of extension in the INSIDE LEG EXTENSION we're discussing here is much more subtle than the explosive extensions off the downhill ski we used to do at the end of a turn in the old days to unweight the skis.

This extension is done to create pressure/contact, not to eliminate it. We should extend at a rate which is only as dynamic as needed to create and maintain a pressured platform on the new outside ski untill such a point that the forces of the new turn develop and find a home waiting for them on that platform we've created.

The rate of extension that produces that result is very gentle. So much so that it can be very indistinquishable to the eye of the observer who doesn't know what to look for.

FASTMAN
post #76 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason
That term leg extension. It implys a step up. As soon as people see this in their minds eye they seem to be thinking something negative to the flow.
Your right John, this is the biggest obstacle to acquiring an accurate understanding of this transition technique. Some just can't seem to get beyond the mental hurdle of believing that extension of the old inside leg always equates to an uphill movement of the center of mass.

Example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud
Any extension move onto the uphill edge is a move away from the new turn.
Bud, it CAN be an uphill move away from the new turn, as you suggest, but it doesn't have to be. In this case it is not.

The distinction is in what the skier does with his center of mass (CM) during the extension. If he/she leaves it where it is, and just extends the inside leg, the turning forces that found a balanced platform of resistance on the old outside foot will lose that resistance platform, which will allow those forces to drive the CM downhill.

How so you ask? I'll try to keep the explanation as simple as possible. Two forces work on our CM during a turn: 1) gravity, which attempts to drive our CM straight down into the snow, and 2) centrifugal force, which tries to drive our CM laterally into the trees.

The net affect of those 2 forces working together result in a single line of force working on our CM at an angle somewhere between the straight down (vertical) angle of gravity, and the straight sideways (horizontal)angle of centrifugal force. What angle that resultant force line turns out to be is dependant on the magnitude of each of the 2 individual forces (gravity and centrifugal).

If the force of gravity is exactly the same as the amount of centrifugal force during a particular turn, then the resultant force line acting on the CM will be 45 degrees. If centrifugal force is greater than the force of gravity, then the resultant force line acting of the CM will be greater than 45 degrees (closer to horizontal). And, if centrifugal force is smaller than the force of gravity, then the resultant force line acting on the CM will be less than 45 degrees (closer to vertical).

To achieve balance on our outside ski while turning we must move our CM laterally until the resultant force line acting on, and emerging out of, our CM intersects the ground at our outside foot. This is why we see world cup racers in those extreme positions with their hips way inside their feet and close to the ground. The amount of centrifugal force is so large because of the speeds they're going, and the big edge angles they're using, that the resultant force line is tipped well past 45 degrees and they must get their hip way down to have the near horizontal force line emerging out of their CM intersect with their outside foot.

So,,,, knowing all that,,,,, the reason the CM is driven downhill when we extend our old inside leg is because by doing so we have moved our base of support uphill to the inside ski, while keeping the CM stationary, which leaves the ground intersection point of the resultant force line still at the outside foot. This creates an immediate state of imbalance and causes the CM to be driven downhill along the path of that force line acting on it. The platform of resistance on the outside foot is gone, so there's nothing to resist the forces acting on our CM and it therefore is able to have its way with us.

It is that immediate driving of the CM downhill upon the transfer of the base of support from the old outside ski to the old inside ski that facilitates the rolling of the old inside ski off its outside edge, through neutral (flat), and onto its inside edge. That rolling of the ski results in the initiation of a new turn that generates new turning forces which reestablish balance.

The real beauty of this transition is that foot to snow contact is never lost through the entire event, it's only transferred, and the entire release/roll/reengage process can be felt and precisely controlled. This is in contrast to the relaxation of the old outside leg transition, where contact is lost, and then must be reestablished. This provides an inherently harsher and less precise engagement.

The alternative transfer you suggest, which results in an uphill move, is accomplished by moving the CM uphill in unison with the extension of the old inside leg. By doing so the ground intersection point of the resultant force line emerging out of the CM can be relocated to coincide with the location of the old inside foot, and balance can thereby be established on that foot. With balance established on the outside edge of the old inside ski the turn forces will not be able to drive the CM downhill, and a new relaxation movement in the old inside leg will be then needed to terminate the turn. But that is not a description of the INSIDE LEG EXTENSION being discussed here.

Hope that helps clear up the misconceptions. Sorry to all the non technical among us, hope it wasn't too painful.


FASTMAN
post #77 of 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
This is in contrast to the relaxation of the old outside leg transition, where contact is lost, and then must be reestablished. This provides an inherently harsher and less precise engagement.
It's obvious now. With inside leg extension, you don't have to "catch" the CM after relaxation of the old outside leg. The smoother the transfer of the POP, the more precise the engagement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Burns (of The Simpsons)
Ehhhhhhhxcellent!
Thank you Fastman!
post #78 of 79
Good stuff rick! And the bonus is, this is actually an easy turn to make.

Many people don't have an awareness or ability to ski on their LTE of their inside ski. They will collapse the inside leg in the presence of LTE pressure or roll their foot rather than keeping that foot skeletally aligned and strong. Both will make this turn not work. This is why the adding thought of leg extension helps people make this turn.

Eski has some great drills at the beginning of his book to help get this awareness. This move to the LTE of the new outside ski early is a theme if not the theme of their book. Once that awareness of the LTE and ability is in hand, the turn is easy to make and a lot of fun.
post #79 of 79
Hey guys! I know the feeling well just didn't quite see it clearly explained initially. we are talking about the same thing I think. I just never thought about it that precisely before. Now what exactly is my left pinky doing while I make this move and should I shift my chewing gum from side to side simultaniously with the edge change to maintain the POP? Please, no answer neccessary! ha ha
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