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Moonflex Stones and Burrs

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
I started using Diaface Moonflex diamond stones last year.

I have a 200 and a 400 grit.

I was wondering if you guys think that these stones actually minimize the amount of burrs left on the edge because of the design of the grit? I don't seem to get as many as I used to.

Also what do you guys use to knock down the case hardened nicks before using the Moonflex if any?

I usually use an old stone or old 100 grit DMT stone.

I was also debating getting a 100 and 600 or a 1500 Moonflex but I think that may be unneccesary.

If you have not used these diamond stones you must try one.
post #2 of 21
I use the 100 to knock down the big stuff then just use a 200. I have a 400 but I almost never use it. It's not that important for must of us. Save your money.

Did you get my PM and email ? I have not heard back from you.

Max
post #3 of 21
Thread Starter 
No what PM and email?
post #4 of 21
This is what I use for hardened nicks. Lightly, until the "file"
cuts normally. Then on with the Moonies.
http://www.artechski.com/Merchant2/m...egory_Code=26A
post #5 of 21
Max's method is most common - a course grit diamond.

Case hardening usually occurs just on the metal's surface. Using an abrasive is a much safer practice than trying to file the case hardening away. Most files wont even do that & the ones that will are wicked aggressive = high potential for making a major mess out of your edges.

Be careful w/ true stones too. Some are designed to actually impart a bit of case hardening to the edge which will preserve its sharpness. Any time you see the word "polishing stone" that's usually what's going on.
post #6 of 21
Moonflex files + secret sauce are awesome. Bought a set from racewerks last year and I couldn't be happier. Expensive but worth the money IMO.

Nicks for me, depending on what we're looking at:

1. stone, if it needs it, to take the edge off so your fingernail doesn't catch
2. file, to smooth it out and correct the angle, sparingly
3. diamond file progression to polish
post #7 of 21
Do you guys use the full sized or the new mini sized Moonflex Stones? How big are they? The mini ones are much less money. Any opinion on whether they're as good as the big ones?
http://www.race-werks.com/product.ph...ub_cat_id =49
post #8 of 21
I havent tried the mini's, I was out in JH two years ago and a friend of mine that is a instructor for the Steep and Deep camps at the Hole introduced me to the MF files. These were the regular sized files, and at the time they still were not mainstream (at least not to me, it was the first I'd heard of them but I'm an easterner).

What I'm explaining here is tuning the side edge, the base doesn't really apply in this situation.

I'd imagine the 'mini' benefit is being able to clamp the file on the guide without having to tilt it marginally diagonal - I find that with the 3 or 4 inch files (whatever the 'long' ones are, I'm not going to go measure mine hahaha) they get wear mostly on the leading and trailing edge of the file with no evidence of abrasion in the center of the file. I figure it has to do with the curve of the ski, and the file face being of course flat. Even more so with a pair of short SL's in say, 158 as the curve in the ski is more pronounced. To compensate, I tilt the file a little on the guide when I clamp it so there is actually less file length running along the edge. A shorter file would probably eliminate having to do this. The face material and grit is the same so I'd have to surmise that the short ones are probably an improvement over the 'long' ones.
post #9 of 21
Thread Starter 
I use the fullsize with a file guide but I'm sure the smaller ones would be good for touchup work if you stick it in your jacket. The fullsize files are about 1"x4" in size.

The trouble with the smaller ones are there is less to hold on to and less surface area to alternate when filing so the stones doesn't wear unevenly. I guess it depends on what you are going to do with it. Do you use an adjustable tool or a side bevel guide with a clamp?

Since Mike just tuned your skis I would get an SVST 3 degree side bevel guide. Get the aluminum one and a clamp. You can use just a stone and a cheaper diamond stone like a DMT or Swix medium grit to lightly rub on the base bevel to get nicks out. Concentrate more on the side edge so you don't mess up the base bevel.

You should invest in one or two fullsize ones as they will last you a long time if you use them properly with a solution and clean them after each use with a brush and water or alcohol. I have a 200 and a 400 grit and I usually just use the 200 when I am doing a quick tune.

Artech has them for cheaper but they charge a minimum of 9$ for UPS Ground so I guess it all evens out. They are in NE so shipping should be quick.
post #10 of 21
Thanks for the info guys. Scalce, yes you're right I just picked my skis up from Mike last week. I have all kinds of tools, including a set of DMT stones, I don't really want to spend more money, but if the Moonflex are so much better I will. I have black, blue and red DMT stones - to supplement those which Moonflex do you think I need?

Also Mike and a tuning video I saw both show using the stones without a file guide. I've been doing that recently. Do you have any opinion on that? I use an adjustable tool, the Swing Cut by FKS for the sides, and a Verio Base Bevel guide for the base edges.

Thanks,
Steve
post #11 of 21
My friend at Burke Mt Academy will turn her skis free hand some times. I guess when your good, your good. I got her into the moonflex stones and also have given her some Norton Honeing stones, but they are expensive. We do make our own secret sauce, its a 50/50 mix of Denatured Alcohol and water. Make it your self and save money.

For most of us the 100 and 200 MF is all we need I have a 400 but almost never use it.

I haven't seen the mini's yet but it makes sense.
post #12 of 21
Anyone have an opinion on the best side beveler for files and stones?
post #13 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz
Scalce, yes you're right I just picked my skis up from Mike last week. I have all kinds of tools, including a set of DMT stones, I don't really want to spend more money, but if the Moonflex are so much better I will. I have black, blue and red DMT stones - to supplement those which Moonflex do you think I need?

Also Mike and a tuning video I saw both show using the stones without a file guide. I've been doing that recently. Do you have any opinion on that?
Like Max said we both pretty much only use the 200 as it cuts and polishes pretty well. Use the DMT course stone on rough areas first and use the medium to touch up the base bevel.

Mike can freehand the side edge for maintenance but I wouldn't recomend it for most people and to get a sharp edge back you will need a side bevel tool or guide.

You can freehand the base bevel instead of using a guide for basic maintence. The edge will get sharp from the side tool so you don't need to put too much presure on the base.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
Anyone have an opinion on the best side beveler for files and stones?
I like the SVST aluminum guide and a clamp. I'm sure the stainless steel one is better but I bought other tools and didn't want to spend the extra money. I always keep my side edges at 3 degrees so I don't need the shims.
post #14 of 21
i use an edge beveler with the desired edge bevels with gummi stones
1. grey stone (not the montana one...there's another one that feels very abraisive and not too "gummi" like)
2. red stone
3. red stone w/ water (a bit like wet sanding)
4. brown stone
edges become VERY smooth, absolutely no burs, and VERY sharp. the key is to not press on the stones so hard as to deform it into a cup. the customers i've had really notice the difference in smoothness and finish quality

i have to do this cause people kept killing the diamond stones by using them as sandpaper perpendicular to the edges

melloboy
post #15 of 21
This article ran in Ski Racing Magazine in '05 Buyer's Guide issue & is how I am now tuning our side edges (SEE Step #8) I have seen similar articles on what is called "backfiling"

Dave Peszek is Homenkol's WC Race Tech.

http://www.holmenkol.us/myadmin/data...our%20Skis.pdf
post #16 of 21
Thread Starter 
Wouldn't doing that take off alot of side material?

Also how can you tell the difference between a curled edge and a sharp edge?
post #17 of 21
Yes but more up towards the side wall or topskin of the ski. This allows you to get a true 3 degree angle on your side edge. otherwise their is too much edge/sidewall/topskin to creat the proper angle.


Anytime you file or diamond stone your side edges you must remove the burr created on the base edge.

As he instructed put your ski on its side in your vise with the base facing away from. take a ceramic or arknsas stone and lay it flat against the base edge. use your thumb on top of the ski as a guide & with light to medium pressure run the stone along te base edge "feeling" the abrsiveness of the edge as you go. I finish the same way after this with a TOKO finishing block.
post #18 of 21
Thread Starter 
If you use a sidewall remover or carbide tool wouldn't that allow you to get a true 3 degrees?

Thanks for the link.
post #19 of 21
Apparantly not. I think it is almost a matter of removing more of the upper portion of the side edge.
But, if you go to Homenkol's site, you can probably email them and ask about "backfiling". this is the 2nd article I have seen in Ski Racing Mag. on this subject.
post #20 of 21
Thread Starter 
I think SkiDoc actually sets the edge to a higher angle and then a 3 when he uses the ceramic edger.

What kind of files do you like for intial setting of the edge angle.

I have been meaning to buy some new stuff.
post #21 of 21
I just bought some new files which I have not used yet off the Homenkol site. I bought the small (100mm) length in 13 15 & 18 tooth versions plus a small Panser (Cross file) they were only $10.00 each. Go to Racing-alpine, tools, Edge at the following site

I think it is www.Holmenkol.us/ and then look around at their alpine tools and and Sportna Oprema line. Really high zuit stuff. I love their $15.00 thumb screw clamp. It is great with a side edge beveler. Holds the file or stone really solid. Better than a big spring clamp, but spendy.
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