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Jargon Busting... - Page 2

post #31 of 49

What Happens With Your Feet/Skis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost
: : : I don't follow. I can picture a circle on the hill, but if you have the top of the circle uphill and the bottom downhill and you are following the circle you are starting at 90 degrees to the fall line, it seems to me. That would be cross country skiing. When I begin a turn turn, I'm pointing downhill and I want to turn right, say, because some joker has designed the run with a whopping big tree right at the bottom of the chute, or there is some beginner skiing at 90 degrees to the fall line trying to ski in circles.

In over simplified terms. I simply throw my self to the right front quarter. Since I am now leaning radically right, the right edge of my skis, and especially the front edges thereof, dig into the snow and I carve a turn. The centripetal force exerted by my strongly carving turn balances my inertia and weight and catches me as I go around the curve instead of falling on the snow on my right side. It's just like countersteering when riding a bike.

It can be analyzed to death....I first have to let gravity make me fall to the right side with my com low, so I will some edge set and can push against my skis, mostly the outside one, to put my com even more quickly into a good position to apply even more push so that my com will quickly be far to the right front quarter, and i'm in a good possition to really crank down on the those edge, but

basically there is no skiding, and I never see any higher than than middle third of the circle, unless I need to make a really sharp turn to avoid an obstacle. To me ews makes sense if it means moving your com into the turn before your skis are actually turning in that direction.
The skier may be facing downhill but lets think about what their feet/skis are doing? Think about the 2nd and 3rd turn etc. To start the next turn does the skier actually wait until their feet/skis are pointed directly down the hill or are their feet/skis across the hill, at 90 degrees if I understand what you have described and is correct to a point, and start from the top of the turn (circle) as described? If a skiers feet/skis are pointed to the bottom of the circle before the turn is started, the skier is late starting their next turn from the top of the circle and will compensate somehow for their late start, – you will see skiers do a little hip check with their skis a lot of times to slow their speed – each turn will become faster and faster if the skier is keeping everything in the fall line and does not some how compensate. Why? Because each turn will become faster and faster as the skier turns a “Z” shape turn instead of the “O” described. A skier can “turn” and “control” their “Z” turn with some type of compensating movement. However, this does not mean the efficiency of the skiers turn is what it can and should be. There are always exceptions to any “basic” rule given the type terrain, type of snow, and of course the traffic and out of control skier that can not compensate! To make an efficient turn, let your feet and skis start the turn from the top of the circle.

Duck, here comes another group of rental sleds!

Have a good day and best regards,

JC
post #32 of 49
Thanks for Bob Barnes' excellent picture:

http://ourworld.cs.com/BBRNZ/Dynamic+Parallel.gif

Look particularly at the skiis. Darker colour indicates more weight. Neutral is where both skiis are grey in frame 18. Also, in frame 18, the turn is complete. Frame 19 shows weight increasing on the outside ski, as the new turn begins.

As I understand it, in an EWS turn, the uphill ski would become dark showing the weight transfer before frame 18. The skier has not yet completed the turn. Hopefully, the weight is transferred as a result of the downhill leg relaxing, and not by a step up. Allowing the downhill leg to "collapse" would cause the CM to topple over the path of the skiis quite rapidly.

The short summary is that in the EWS turn weight is transferred to the uphill ski before turn completion. The turn completes while the skier is on LTE of the uphill ski.

So, you EWS experts out there.... is that about right?

Cheers!
post #33 of 49

ews

Big E,

When I see your explanation (and it's a good one), I'm first thinking - gaaah - how awkward. But as an exercise, it's just a piece of one foot skiing where we need to make every other turn with 100% of our weight on the inside ski. Ok, so getting more weight unnaturally on the inside ski at the end of a turn (/outside ski at the beginning of a new turn) can be instructive. So I'm going to take that definition and try to up the ante.

Lacking a formal definition ever presented to me, I've always assumed that EWS just meant shifting the weight on purpose earlier than it would have naturally built up. It's been explained to me that efficient form requires one to let the weight shifts happen as a result of centrifugal force as opposed to forcing the shift to cause other things. Of course sometimes we require inefficiency to cause learning to happen. So doing EWS turns can be a good thing. But in addition to your definition I would also include any point between turn initiation and the fall line where one consciously puts more weight on the outside ski than what would naturally occur.
post #34 of 49
therusty:

What I've understood as one defining feature, is the LTE of the uphill ski must still be carving at the end of the turn. So, I have to disagree with your extended definition.

In an EWS turn, the weight must have been shifted onto the uphill leg prior to turn completion, which is what makes the shift early, not just "earlier than pressure would normally build up". If you've already completed the turn, and are in a traverse, a weight shift is not early, it is late.

You don't have to keep the weight on the uphill leg for long, and I don't think that is the intent of the turn. IMO, the intent is to minimize time spent in the transition between turns.

EG. shoot the leg out from a three legged stool -- the stool will fall and it's other two feet act as the fulcrum.

In the EWS turn the LTE of the uphill ski acts as the fulcrum when the outside leg is collapsed. In fact, the outside leg is really holding the CM from falling in the first place. It's up to you to time the weight shift to get the CM falling in the right direction into the next turn.

Another way to look at it: from the Bob Barnes drawing - Frame 18 is where the CM is directly over the skis, and the skis are equally weighted. In an EWS turn, the CM will be directly above the skiis, but the uphill ski will have the majority/all of the weight on it.

At least that is how I see it. Is that about right or am I way off?
post #35 of 49
I've got to get out on snow and try to duplicate what you have described. I think I see what you are getting at, I just have to go give it a try to be sure. That won't be for at least a month. Until then I'll just SUAR.

In keeping with the thead title, that is "shut up and read"

Although some board instructors at my area have that made into a sticker which is prominently displayed on their snowboards. In their case it means "Shut up and ride".
post #36 of 49
FYI:I took this from post #95 of the "skiing styles and instruction" thread.(my boldiing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by "John Mason
In early weight shift as is described by 3 different skiing authors, you have the weight shift occuring at transition when the skis are not in a curve at all, but between curves. The early part of it comes into play because technically you shift just before transition while the body is still uphill and the last turn is just ending. As you remove pressure and flatten then tip your downhill ski the uphill ski at this transition, is weighted and carving on it's LTE. This creates a fulcrum that the body pivots over rather than a meandering upper ski. This means that the weighted uphill ski, will begin engaging sooner as the BTE engages following the tipping of the body caused by the CM going down the hill.
So the weight is transfered just as the turn is ending and the body is not yet above both skiis - prior to frame 18. The skier completes the turn on the LTE of the uphill ski. It sounds like transition is on one ski.
post #37 of 49
Thanks BigE for the explanation, and thanks Barnes for the excellent picture.
I understand what you mean. It is necessary to have your "uphill ski weighted" before frame 18, this "weight on the ski" force has an equal and opposite force which pushes me to the other side, effectively moving my "self" (c of m) into the turn "early", before my skis are actually turning in that direction.

John, thanks to the picture I think I see what you mean too. My lack of understanding probably came from the fact that I normally see no reason to ski at an angle to the fall line any greater than approximately frames 8 to 14 and the mirror image thereof, unless I'm skiing bumps. When I'm skiing bumps, the terain usually dictates when and how much weight transfer I'll have.
post #38 of 49

And In The End

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
FYI:I took this from post #95 of the "skiing styles and instruction" thread.(my boldiing.


So the weight is transfered just as the turn is ending and the body is not yet above both skiis - prior to frame 18. The skier completes the turn on the LTE of the uphill ski. It sounds like transition is on one ski.
And therein lies the real secret; the end of the turn a lot of the time is why the start of the turn is late.
post #39 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigE
As I understand it, in a nutshell:

Assuming that in a regular turn, the weight distribution on the skis through neutral is about equal. In the EWS turn the transfer of weight from the outside ski to the inside ski occurs before neutral is reached -- before the edges are released.

The LTE of the inside ski acts as a fulcrum point which the COM crosses over into the next turn. The cross over can be very fast if the outside leg is allowed to "collapse" when transferring the weight.

Cheers!
I am certainly no expert but I think the succinct definition of EWS is simply that pressure is transferred to the new outside ski before the end change.

For intermediates (like myself) with a long memory of wedge skiing, the notion of committing pressure to the outside ski that does not already have its inside edge set is a necessary and difficult thing to learn (IMHO).
post #40 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpowrie
I am certainly no expert but I think the succinct definition of EWS is simply that pressure is transferred to the new outside ski before the end change.
Sorry I meant "edge change".
post #41 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpowrie
I am certainly no expert but I think the succinct definition of EWS is simply that pressure is transferred to the new outside ski before the edge change.

For intermediates (like myself) with a long memory of wedge skiing, the notion of committing pressure to the outside ski that does not already have its inside edge set is a necessary and difficult thing to learn (IMHO).
More specifically, to the LTE of the uphill ski. Transfer to a flat edge does not count.
post #42 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpowrie
I am certainly no expert but I think the succinct definition of EWS is simply that pressure is transferred to the new outside ski before the edge change.

For intermediates (like myself) with a long memory of wedge skiing, the notion of committing pressure to the outside ski that does not already have its inside edge set is a necessary and difficult thing to learn (IMHO).
Jpowrie--I like your elegant, simple definition of "early weight shift," and I agree that it is a very important thing to learn, at least as a technical option. You'll be a far more versatile and capable skier with it--in many variations--in your quiver.

But it really is not (usually) "necessary," nor should it be very difficult for most people to learn. As elementary as it is, though, beware of the very many ways that this move can backfire, producing exactly the opposite effect of what you may be looking for. We've discussed it a lot here, through the years.

It's interesting to note, for example, that the move, pretty much as you've described it (pressure transfer before the edge change/release, and therefore before the new turn actually begins) is a very common, but very incorrect (or at least dated), way to teach a wedge turn. Years ago (decades, actually), most basic ski technique was based on "pushoff" initiations, which involve pushing from the "platform" of an edged, engaged, downhill ski, usually with some sort of rotation ("twist") of the body to cause the tails of one or both skis to brush out in a skid. The pushoff transfers the weight from the downhill ski to the uphill ski, and then the turn begins. Classic examples of "pushoff" turns include "stem christies" with either "up-stems" or "downstems" (brushing the downhill ski down until its edge engages to create the platform), many step turn varieties, and "rebound" turns.

In "those days," skiers were often taught to make "snowplow" turns by leaning their upper bodies strongly out over their uphill (new outside) skis. It was sometimes known as the "Teapot Turn" ("tip your body and pour some 'tea' to the left to go right...."). The effect--and the problem--should be obvious: every move you make to go right is actually a move to the left (a "negative movement"), and the outcome is a skidded, defensive, braking action. That's fine if you want that, of course. But it's not fine if you're trying to develop the skills of offensive, contemporary, carved turns.

Unfortunately, many instructors still today teach wedge turns based on a strong "early weight shift." (Examples: "Push on the right ski to turn left, push on the left ski to turn right." "Squish a bug--or grind out a cigarette butt--with your right foot to go left....") These negative movement-based turns are the antithesis of good carved offensive turns, and the habits they introduce can be difficult to break. Early weight shift is the WRONG--not RIGHT--way to initiate a wedge turn, in this respect. Ironically, JP, I'll bet that your "long memories of wedge skiing" actually involved "early weight shift"--and that that was the problem! (Yes, I could certainly be wrong about your particular experience.)

Modern turns (offensive "go that way" turns, at least--there are other kinds), wedge or otherwise, involve exclusively "positive" "into-the-turn" movements, with no pushing of the tails or anything else out into a skid, in the "wrong direction." "Early weight shift," as has been much discussed, does not NECESSARILY involve a negative move up the hill, or a pushoff, but it OFTEN does, and it even more often RESULTS in negative movements, especially at low skill levels and low speeds. Modern wedge turns--as "embryonic" expert turns--begin with the same "right tip right to go right" thought (and movement) that I've suggested as a mantra for initiating good parallel turns, the same movement we've been discussing in the current "Thousand Steps" thread. This movement may well involve an immediate lightening of the downhill ski as it is guided in the new direction (although it does not require it). But it is clearly different than the usual outcome of the thought "shift your weight to the left prior to, or in order to cause, a right turn."

If you're interested in more discussion of the potential pitfalls of improper application of "early weight shift," carefully read the thread, "Lifting is Learning (but what is it teaching?)". You'll see that there is a great deal of controversy and misinformation, as well as much "jargon-based confusion," surrounding the issue of "weight transfer."

Anyway, jp--you've brought up a great example of how "jargon" can, indeed, cause great confusion. "Early weight shift" can mean many things, some good, some not. And even with the best of understanding and the best of intentions, it can easily backfire.

You've also provided a great example of where even a very accurate and succinct definition of a "jargonistic" term can still lead to great confusion and misunderstanding. Your "succinct definition" of "early weight shift" is probably quite accurate, in as much as it probably would not conflict with how most people have used the term here at EpicSki recently. But even something so elegantly simple and clear and non-controversial as your definition can have many different interpretations and conflicting implications:

"The succinct definition of EWS is simply that pressure is transferred to the new outside ski before the edge change." Beautiful! But--How much pressure? How is it transferred? How quickly? As a result of what? (Your movements, or external forces--gravity, centrifugal--applying?) How much "before"? (This is critically important, and milliseconds can matter.) What kind of movements are involved? Clearly, there are almost infinite variations that all fit your beautifully simple definition!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #43 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado
Jpowrie--I like your elegant, simple definition of "early weight shift," and I agree that it is a very important thing to learn, at least as a technical option. You'll be a far more versatile and capable skier with it--in many variations--in your quiver.

......

Unfortunately, many instructors still today teach wedge turns based on a strong "early weight shift." (Examples: "Push on the right ski to turn left, push on the left ski to turn right." "Squish a bug--or grind out a cigarette butt--with your right foot to go left....") These negative movement-based turns are the antithesis of good carved offensive turns, and the habits they introduce can be difficult to break. Early weight shift is the WRONG--not RIGHT--way to initiate a wedge turn, in this respect. Ironically, JP, I'll bet that your "long memories of wedge skiing" actually involved "early weight shift"--and that that was the problem! (Yes, I could certainly be wrong about your particular experience.)

.......

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
Bob, as usual your post is beautifully written and deeply thought provoking.

I still not sure how a snowplow turn can fit into my definition of EWS, because in a snowploy turn, the inside edges of both skis are permanently engaged. Thus pressure can never be transferred to the outside ski BEFORE the edge change (from outside edge to inside edge of the new outside ski).

I believe my attempts to learn carved turns have been aided by thinking about EWS. I am now focussing more on simply rolling both edges. I take your point that to put my WEIGHT over my outside ski I would need to step uphill, but I think there could be another way of looking at this. Notice that although the acronym is EWS I have been careful to use the term pressure.

Say I have completed a carved left turn in a wide stance with my left leg short and my right leg long. Now I want to carve to the right by rolling into my right edges using a crossover. Given that my ankles joints are more or less locked inside my boots, my best option would seem to be to drive my CM across my skis using my legs (I believe this would be a positive movement in your philospophy). I can do this by retracting my right leg, by extending my left leg, or both. The way I see it this would be the much talked about early transfer of pressure. This movement would put me on my right edges and commit my CM to the new turn. This is very different from stepping uphill.
post #44 of 49
jpowrie: you got it.

There are active threads elsewhere with EWS and inside leg extension techniques compared. Roughly speaking, in your turn that's right leg retraction/relaxation vs left leg extension.

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=19785

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=19753

Enjoy!
post #45 of 49
Sounds to me like you need a new thread for each and every TOMLA* or term.

Alternativley a wiki might be an idea to record some of the jargon (although that may end up as Bob's Encyclopedia online)

David

*Three Or More Letter Acronym
post #46 of 49
wiki?

Edited: Found definition
Oh! goggled it---type of encyclopedia! I got it.
post #47 of 49
IMNSHO this thread just makes me ROFLOL.

TTNF,

Ken
post #48 of 49
skierj:

I believe you said in an earlier posting in this thread that the term "early weight shift" was coined by John Mason. I remember quite a discussion about it.Actually this term appears in the book Breakthrough on Skis by Lito Tejada- Flores, originally published in 1986; a second edition appeared in 1994. He sugests that the first move in initiating a new turn is to transfer all your weight to the uphill ski by standing on it and then moving across and into the new turn. He calls it (you guessed it) "early weight shift".

cdnguy
post #49 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnguy
skierj:

I believe you said in an earlier posting in this thread that the term "early weight shift" was coined by John Mason. I remember quite a discussion about it.Actually this term appears in the book Breakthrough on Skis by Lito Tejada- Flores, originally published in 1986; a second edition appeared in 1994. He sugests that the first move in initiating a new turn is to transfer all your weight to the uphill ski by standing on it and then moving across and into the new turn. He calls it (you guessed it) "early weight shift".

cdnguy
That may be, I first heard it here, from JM.
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