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Robbery in progress

post #1 of 149
10/25/04 at 6:27am
Thread Starter 
http://www.okemo.com/shop/store.html?action=browse&CategoryNum=3077519932358 03

Unbelievable.

Wanna know why families don't ski together on passes? Do the math.

Edited out Robbery in Progress in favor of Crime in Progress, to appease the technical peeps.

Edited again because some people don't like the word Robbery, Crime, or otherwise. If I could change the title of this thread, I would, but the system doesn't allow for it.
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post #2 of 149
10/25/04 at 7:09am
unbelievable. I'll bring my $1200 skis'n'binding combo and my $1000 boots.
Alta is offering a silver card for $99 that is transferable and knocks $20 off the lift ticket so it's $27. Ski areas all over the west are trying to find ways to reduce pass prices. Guess it isn't catching on out East.
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post #3 of 149
10/25/04 at 7:25am
For some reason the east coast doens't seem to get it. I wonder if the operating costs are that much higher? OR just Greedy???
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post #4 of 149
10/25/04 at 8:43am
It must have to do with the cost of operating. Think of all the snow making they do and this year think of what the fuel will cost. Granted they may have done a prebuy on the fuel. After a warm spill and freeze, which mountain will have the best conditions? Granted it's a lot of money for a seasons pass, if you didn't buy it back in August. Even then it was only about $100.00 cheaper. BTW what is the cost of a pass at Stratton ?
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post #5 of 149
10/25/04 at 8:46am
Thread Starter 
http://stratton.com/smartpasses.cfm

Stratton is even higher. A weekend lift ticket for an adult is $72.

Operating costs ARE higher. Snow has to be made. That ain't cheap.

But eliminating most of your ski population by outrageous lift tix and passes means more people PASS on skiing your resort.

Ski crowded Okemo? PASS.
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post #6 of 149
10/25/04 at 8:49am
Was there an early season discount on those passes?
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post #7 of 149
10/25/04 at 9:00am
Thread Starter 
Max Capacity said it was $100 cheaper to buy it in August, Utah49. I don't consider that a discount by much.

What bothers me is the fact that these resorts have to make snow, yes, but they offer WAY less than any Western resort. They're crowded, small, and have narrow runs.

Sigh. I guess you scalp the people what you can in this kind of environment. It just amazes me every year.
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post #8 of 149
10/25/04 at 9:41am
It is crazy, but it'll not change as long as people are paying these prices for passes.
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post #9 of 149
10/25/04 at 9:43am
I'm trying to understand what you'd like Okemo to do. You're already upset that the place is overcrowded on weekends, and you want them to lower the season pass price to make it even worse?

Places like Stratton and Okemo have become successful because they cater to people seeking a groomed, blue-square, condo-heavy kind of experience. It ain't what I'm interested in, but judging by their numbers, many people are. Put yourself in the Muellers' shoes... your goal as a ski area is to make money, and you've discovered that people are willing to pay for a place that provides the above ambiance. Why would you change?

ASC is already trying the cheapo season pass route that has become popular in Colorado's Front Range, and I bet that you wouldn't be happy skiing at their mountains on a weekend either. Instead of ranting about the obvious (Okemo and Stratton are way overpriced), wouldn't it seem logical to just ski at some of the more interesting, cheaper places that generally don't get as crowded? Within driving distance of southern Vermont... Sugarbush, Magic, Pico, Berkshire East, Cannon, Burke, Mad River, Ascutney, or Bolton come to mind, or a bit further north, Sutton and Orford. On Thursdays and Fridays, you could even try that Bear Creek country club place (the old Roundtop, next to Killington): $35 for a lift ticket and lunch buffet.
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post #10 of 149
10/25/04 at 9:49am
Folks -- its supply and demand. If people are demanding, any business would be stupid not to keep charing more and more. These east coast resorts are money-makers.
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post #11 of 149
10/25/04 at 9:57am
The So Cal ski areas have season passes for about $250 or less, and their operating costs have to be similiar to eastern areas, so WTF?
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post #12 of 149
10/25/04 at 10:35am
They are correct it is supply and demand. Consider out west, not only are there more skiing options. But there are many backcountry options. Meaning if skiing is too pricey screw them, just hike up a mountain and ski down. There are backcountry options in the east but it is not as valid an option. Personally I bought a full season pass at MRG for 670, and my daughter gets a pass for free, she is 9. Can't beat that deal in the east. Even if I had bought Killingtons hugely discounted Bronze pass with like 700 blackout days it would have cost me more to buy an additional pass for my daughter as well. Plus getting out on weekday powder at MRG is heaven, you and like 50 people get all of that powder to yourselves. At killington its skied out by 10 AM


Alfonse
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post #13 of 149
10/25/04 at 11:08am

and while i'm at it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonni
They're crowded, small, and have narrow runs.
Narrow trails: good
Big wide trails: not nearly as good
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post #14 of 149
10/25/04 at 11:36am
Folks -- its supply and demand. If people are demanding, any business would be stupid not to keep charing more and more. These east coast resorts are money-makers."

Consistently in Vermont only one or two mountains turn a profit, every year one of them is Mad River Glen.

Alfonse
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post #15 of 149
10/25/04 at 11:46am
Thread Starter 
I don't know why I bring this up. I should know better.

MilesB has a good point. Why the difference? Does California REALLY have more skiing options than all of the East?
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post #16 of 149
10/25/04 at 11:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesdeluxe
Narrow trails: good
Big wide trails: not nearly as good
Narrow crowded trails are good. :
You're one sick puppy.

So you'd rather make herky jerky turns avoiding all manner of skiers, good and bad, like a NY cab driver jockeying for position than make nice leisurely sweeping turns........WTF?: :
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post #17 of 149
10/25/04 at 11:50am
We just get screwed in the East.

No matter what
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post #18 of 149
10/25/04 at 11:53am
Thread Starter 
James Deluxe thinks we should just shut up and pay and stop talking about it.
Here's a guy businesses must LOVE.
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post #19 of 149
10/25/04 at 12:27pm
If the ASC pass works out well this year you might see others follow if the expensive passes like the Okemo one does not make too much money.

I think Stratton is overpriced and crowded for what it is.

I like Okemo but they are raising prices every year and it seems to be getting more popular.

I got the ASC Gold pass because I like Sunday River and Sugarloaf which are both dead on the weekdays and still doable on weekends and most holidays.

Plus I have the option of all the other mountains.
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post #20 of 149
10/25/04 at 12:34pm
"shut up pay and stop talking about it"????

No one is pointing a gun at you - you have a lot of options at your disposal...I agree the prices are outrageous and as a result I choose to go elsewhere...Several VT mountains lowered their pass rates this year (ASC, Sugarbush)...As has been mentioned Mad River has great deals...

The Muellers run a high touch operation that caters to a CT/NY crowd that is willing to pay the fare. There expenses are probably higher per skier than most places due to the extra staff, snowmaking and grooming...I assume they also turn a decent profit which allows them to keep improving the facility each year...

A robbery is when someone takes something from you without your permission. "Highway Robbery" is when the purveyor of the good or service has you in a spot where you have no other option but to pay him (i.e. your out of gas and there are no other gas stations within 40 miles). Okemo is doing neither one.
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post #21 of 149
10/25/04 at 1:01pm
Okemo undoubtedly has an enviable position of having a happy clientele that are willing to ante up for the services they so enjoy. ..The Muellers are busy trying to develop the same situation at Crested Butte. ....I'm guessing they are going to let some of those affluent easterners subsidize the transformation in progress in Colorado.
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post #22 of 149
10/25/04 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by feallen
Okemo undoubtedly has an enviable position of having a happy clientele that are willing to ante up for the services they so enjoy. ..The Muellers are busy trying to develop the same situation at Crested Butte. ....I'm guessing they are going to let some of those affluent easterners subsidize the transformation in progress in Colorado.
Exactly -- I heard this precise thing from a ski industry friend -- this person's ski company buddies came out to ski at one of their resorts in the west one of them cracked "look at this nice playground our eastern resorts built for you".

Believe it or not for a lot of these companies the West (absent say perhaps Whistler-Blackcomb and Vail) really is a side show.
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post #23 of 149
10/25/04 at 1:12pm
Thread Starter 
I know. I just can't believe it. It seems to be a hot topic though, with justifications on both sides of the fence.

I guess I don't like resorts that Cater to That Crowd either. C'est la vie.

Everyone gripes about how no one makes money in the ski biz.....and how high lift prices are. I'm just average.

I wish it would snow. Tain't summer, Tain't winter. What good is it?
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post #24 of 149
10/25/04 at 1:34pm
This is one of those perrenial discussions. Okemo and Stratton charge big dollars for lift tickets and season passes because they can fill up their mountains on a Saturday. When skiers visits dip because prices are too high, management may change ticket prices. The East does have a lot of ski areas and prices vary a lot. On a powder Saturday I'll be at Magic skiing for less than half of what Stratton charges for a day ticket, park next to the lodge, ski narrow and uncrowded trails within sight of Stratton.

The ski industry like the airline industry has pricing that varies tremendously. It is possible to ski at Stratton for $25 on a weekend when others are coughing up $72 for the same experience. Joining a ski club helps defray ticket and lodging costs a lot. In the East, skiing in Canada is typically a ~35% savings before exchange.

The ski industry does need to get their act together with regard to who they market to. Insiders in the ski industry pay far less than others for tickets, clothing, equipment and travel than the 'others', but the market is shrinking. If the ski industry wants to grow, more people need to be attracted to the sport and marketing to insiders doesn't help. Compare skiing with cruises which market to a broad specvtrum of people with deals.
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post #25 of 149
10/25/04 at 2:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
posted by Talisman:

If the ski industry wants to grow, more people need to be attracted to the sport and marketing to insiders doesn't help.
Indeed.

Here's a scenario:

There has been some discussion about how to attract and KEEP new skiers. Let's take Vermont, for example.

Say you want to talk non-skiing friends into giving this sport a shot. They finally agree to go.

Being Non-Skiers, they know nothing of MRG (which is not for newbies anyway), or more obscure resorts like Haystack or Magic. They HAVE heard of Killington and Stratton, minimum, and if they are local (Vermonters), Mt. Snow, Okemo, etc.

They do a little research and WHOA! Look at that! It will cost me $72 for a one day lift pass! Yeeps! Perhaps they work a day shift M-F and can only go weekends, like most of the population.

They might even GO, and be faced with the crowds that throng at the lifts on the learning hill.

I wouldn't go back.

I got lucky and learned in the West, at Mt. Spokane and Schweitzer, where a lift pass didn't break the budget and you had SPACE to stretch out without fear of mutilation by others.

Eventually, they're going to price themselves right out of the market for NEW PEOPLE to get into this sport.

Not smart, in my opinon.
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post #26 of 149
10/25/04 at 2:41pm
I've decided that there are such things as "skiing snobs." This applies to people who have to go to Stratton and Okemo because that's the place to go. The same people who wear lift tickets on that jackets all year long.

Somebody above pointed out that there are plenty of cheaper ski areas close to Southern Vt. There are, Berkshire East is sweet and is in the low $40's. Jiminy Peak is in the Mid $40's, Magic is better than both of them and it's just down the road on Rt100 and during the week it's less than $40 (but go on a good snow year only.)

By the way Bonni Narrow Trails are good. If they were all wide it would be easy.
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post #27 of 149
10/25/04 at 2:42pm
PS Both Stratton and Okemo are Flat!
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post #28 of 149
10/25/04 at 2:52pm
I'll not argue the supply and demand, but they really should have a bigger discount for families. A family with three or four kids will more likely end up not getting that family pass. It's already expensive enough gearing up three kids. If the family could get a significant discount they would all ski, and there would be 3 or 4 future skiers, instead of maybe 1 out of the three kids if your lucky.

I've skied at a few places where the attitude was frankly too money grubbing. The resort policy makers, just don't think far enough ahead; they only see the money spent today, and figure that chash strapped families aren't going to generate any extra income for them today. The same people would ban the brown bag lunch from their eating areas. "We only want you here if your spending lots of your money."
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post #29 of 149
10/25/04 at 3:40pm
Bonni -

My friend in Spokane gets 2 adult passes and 1 teenage pass to a mountain your familiar with, Silver Mountain (which has the same vertical as Okemo but 2 1/2 times the acreage), for $780. The same would be $3835 at Okemo. That's crazy.
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post #30 of 149
10/25/04 at 4:07pm
Wasn't it Grey Goose Vodka, didn't sell worth a darn when introduced as a bargain Vodka so they jacked the prices through the ceiling and it takes off. The adage that you get what you pay for sometimes turns into the higher the price the better it sells.
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