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Importance of hotness of the feet

post #1 of 75
Thread Starter 
How important is an instructor's skiing ability to the quality of a lesson?

How important is a person's skiing ability to the credibility of their message (on an Internet chat forum, for instance)?

In other words, will you give credence to a person who talks a good game but whose image shows technical difficulties?
post #2 of 75
Nolo,

There are many ski instructors out there that aren’t the best of skiers, but are great teachers. They have a great eye and can identify mechanics’ and movement patterns. They can suggest changes to the student that will help the student get results in their skiing. I’ve always said that you don’t see the coach out on the field during a game making the blocks, but he still is the coach.

As for the person who talks a good game? If it’s a good game, and the info the person is putting out is credible, then I believe that this person should be listen too as long as the person is civil about it. We’ve had some pretty cheesy post lately, and I for one wouldn’t give much credit to the person that makes post like that. My two cents worth.---------Wigs
post #3 of 75
Is this like the Unbearable Lightness of Being?

:-P
kiersten
post #4 of 75
I have to agree with Wigs. A ski teacher has to be able to make accurate demos, but having to be a hot skier, I don't think so. Being able to impart the movements being taught is far more important than having top free skiing or racing skills.

Rick H
post #5 of 75
Seriously, though.

Wigs, your reference to coaches makes me think of Bill Belichick. His playing career is not nearly as illustrious as his coaching career.

kiersten
post #6 of 75
Thread Starter 
So this topic's a slam dunk?

Why are PSIA examiners so obsessed with candidates' skiing then? Wait--that's a rhetorical question.

I'm not buying it. If you're teaching accounting, you should be a good accountant yourself. A good ski teacher must be two things at once: a good skier and a good teacher. They go together and nourish each other. One cannot compensate for the other. That's my opinion, anyway.
post #7 of 75
Thread Starter 
Sorry Kiersten, never read the book. Could you enlighten us?
post #8 of 75
In my men's group last winter I had a trainer from MSU's football program during the period when they last had a championship year. You wouldn't have to look at him long at all to realize he was too small to play college football, but his contribution to the coaching staff helped them achieve the second best season the team has ever had. I think in any sport, after a certain level of performance is achieved, the coaching is not so much demoing, but in seeing and communicating what the student needs for improvement. Later, RicB.
post #9 of 75
Thread Starter 
What level is that, after which the demonstration is no longer so important?

At your level, then, when you seek out coaching, does the person's skiing ability enter into your selection?
post #10 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
So this topic's a slam dunk?

Why are PSIA examiners so obsessed with candidates' skiing then? Wait--that's a rhetorical question.

I'm not buying it. If you're teaching accounting, you should be a good accountant yourself. A good ski teacher must be two things at once: a good skier and a good teacher. They go together and nourish each other. One cannot compensate for the other. That's my opinion, anyway.
I agree Nolo. A good skier, not necessarily a world cup skier. One that can do the demos right and should be a better skier than the guest, but doesn't have to be a lot better. In my years of teaching this sport, I have taught a lot of upper level classes. Sometimes while coaching in the level 9 area, I have had the opportunity to work with some really exceptional skiers. I wouldn't say they where better skiers than I over all. But they were very good and maybe better in some areas. In fact, I have said on many occasions to other fellow pros that I thought we could put a jacket on this skier for their skiing ability. But that wouldn't happen because of their lack of understanding of mechanics and there lack teaching skills. But if given time, they might make great teachers if they wanted to go in that direction. So what I'm saying is that the best skiers in the world don't necessarily make the best teachers.-------Wigs
post #11 of 75
They'd better be able to ski. I can cut them some slack for age though. Not much you can do about getting old.
post #12 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic
They'd better be able to ski. I can cut them some slack for age though. Not much you can do about getting old.
Staying in shape helps!---------Wigs
post #13 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
I'm not buying it. If you're teaching accounting, you should be a good accountant yourself. A good ski teacher must be two things at once: a good skier and a good teacher. They go together and nourish each other. One cannot compensate for the other. That's my opinion, anyway.
My feelings on this are as follows. First, this topic is -- or at least should be -- a moot point for any intermediate-level or below skier. I would like to believe that the instructors at any resort are way past the "intermediate blues" level. I've seen some mighty poor skiing from instructors, but that's another topic.

The point being this: I would think that once a student reaches the upper levels of skiing -- or any sport, for that matter -- that they would have a good knowledge of how they learn. If you learn best from watching, then yes, you need an instructor who can ski better then you. If the student is more of a verbal learner, then I really don't think that an instructor's demo-ing ability is all that important for that particular student.
post #14 of 75
>>>Staying in shape helps!---------Wigs<<<<

Yeah but it's so much harder and so much more work than skiing....sigh....

....Ott
post #15 of 75
Ott and I are in great shape. True it's a round shape....

yd
post #16 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
What level is that, after which the demonstration is no longer so important?

At your level, then, when you seek out coaching, does the person's skiing ability enter into your selection?
I don't think there is any set level, it is depending on the individual needing coaching. I have learned the most from people who are great skiers, but not nessasarily the very best skiers, but had a very good understanding of skiing and movement analysis. I think in this regard skiing is no different than any other sport. Is there something about skiing that it different or is it just that we want it to be different?

I'll quote Aristotle again; "Those who know, do. Those who understand, teach." Later, RicB.
post #17 of 75
Nolo,

I want to comment on one aspect of your original question, skiing ability relating to credibility on an internet forum type situation. Can someone talk the talk if they can't walk the walk?

By reading intensively one can acquire the vocabulary of skiing and have a intellectual understanding of how those words apply to the real world of skiing and a little experience can convince them that it all makes sense so that they feel very confident in their expressed opinions. What they don't realize is that as they gain more experience they are likely to run into the limitations of the definitions they use and find out how few absolutes there are in the world of skiing. They can fit every thing they know about skiing into a simple paradigm and want to continue to make everthing fit that paradigm. They will tend to see what they are looking for in other skiers and will be suprised if they are told by that skier that they are not doing what the observer thinks they are. Only by getting out there and experiencing more and trying those things that don't fit the paradigm, and really attempting to master that concept not just dissmiss it because it is strange feeling or doesn't seem to work as well as what they have been doing, can the skier have a broad enough base of knowledge to make comments and obwervations that aren't one sided and myopic. I would imagine that this would take several 100 day seasons to accomplish or a lifetime of more casual skiing.

yd
post #18 of 75
I ski at such a baby level I'm going to swap fields to think about this.

Outstanding dance instructors (by and large) do not have the technique of the most elite of their students. But any really good dance instructor has certainly at one point or other, been trained so that they could demonstrate good technique, and absolutely could recognize good technique. I know enough to visually tell good technique from bad, and I can say that the best of my ballet teachers was not the best dancer.

Now -- having said that? I would never take a Pilates class from a teacher I could see was not capable of advanced Pilates movements. I'll really have to think about this for a while to muddle out why this is....
post #19 of 75
delta,

Here is part of the answer. We are used to seeing the elite perform in the world of dance but understand that they are the top .0001% and wouldn't expect our local dance instructor to perform on that level. But we would expect them to be able to competantly make the same moves as the elite dancer. We want a high level of competence in our instructors but know that we can expect an elite level of competence. In fact I think that we might find that the best teachers out there might be those who realized that they might never reach the elite levels of performance and so decided that the best thing that they could do with their passion for the activity they are involved in is to get to know and understand it better than the elite doers and add in a deep understanding of how to teach so that they can contrubute to finding and training the next generation of elite performers.

Does that very long sentence make sense?

yd
post #20 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
In other words, will you give credence to a person who talks a good game but whose image shows technical difficulties?
I don't know if I'm typical but... I've skied with instructors (and examiners) who were impressive to watch but amazed me with not only a lack of teaching ability (uh, you've been saying the same thing for an hour, wanna try something else?) but also what they are teaching is what they learned to teach 10 or 30 years ago. On the other hand I've skied with instructors I was more proficient than and they have made suggestions that have helped my skiing. And I know that in some clinics I'm the one showing "technical difficulties" and I've made a difference in someone (better)'s skiing.



Of course a great teacher who is also a great skier is the ideal but it's not necessary.



To the 1st timer anyone not falling down is a great skier. And to some people if you don't have a gold medal or a starring role role in a Warren Miller movie you shouldn't be talking. Their problem though.:
post #21 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
In other words, will you give credence to a person who talks a good game but whose image shows technical difficulties?
good technical eye is not necessarily equal to great technical ability.

of course in Yoda's case they are about equal, eh?

but I'd say that an educated, experienced and insightful eye is worth more than impressive turning ability... provided you are the type of student who does not need to see the coach/instructor do what he/she is explaining.
post #22 of 75
Quote:
We are used to seeing the elite perform in the world of dance but understand that they are the top .0001% and wouldn't expect our local dance instructor to perform on that level. But we would expect them to be able to competantly make the same moves as the elite dancer.
Yd, that's exactly it. I mean, World Cup racers presumably are better technically than their coaches, right? (Also, I guess there are still a lot more competent dance teachers out there than Pilates teachers. : )

I agree with Dano that teaching skill != skiing skill, and with Gonzo that for a visual learner who's an advanced or expert skier, hot feet would be very important.
post #23 of 75
In my opinion, one need not be a great skier to be a great instructor--although it would help. But I do believe that an instructor's skiing should clearly demonstrate what he or she is talking about, at least on a fundamental, qualitative level. An effective instructor may not need to be incredibly skilled or athletic, but the movements should be accurate and fundamentally sound. If there is a real disconnect between the instructor's skiing and the points he/she's trying to make, it suggests to me a lack of understanding. The only exception is when the instructor realizes and openly acknowledges that he's not able to demonstrate what he's describing, and that it's something he's working on his own skiing as well. That's not as good as being able to demonstrate it, especially for visual students, but I've seen many great lessons (in skiing and elsewhere) in which both the students and the teacher were exploring a concept that neither was particularly adept at. In such cases, the skill of the instructor shows in his ability to guide the exploration. Good instructors are always great learners, and sometimes simply demonstrating that skill at and passion for learning is enough to inspire great things in students. It may be "guided discovery" at its very best!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes
post #24 of 75
Interesting views!

I detect a several impacts of the instructors skiing ability.
Importance to the instructors credibility to students (and other instructors for some reason).
Importance to their ability to provide quality learning experiences.

As for just the image presented:

Will a student learn "better" from an instructor they think is a hot skier, and if so how hot does one actually need to be for the student to think so?

Does the importance of the demo to enhance the learning experience vary relative to the level of the student?

How important to a beginner is a clear demo of some movement they otherwise have no concept of? Probably very important, but not to the extent of meeting another instructors view of a hot foot expert. (L-I?)

How important to an intermediate is a clear demo of some movement they only have a token concept of? Probably also very important, but again to the level of the student but not to the extent of meeting another instructors view of a hot foot expert. (L-II?)

How important to an advanced skied is a clear demo of the nuances of some movement they otherwise thought they understood? Probably very important, and to the extent that the instructor needs to be good enough to show it as a clear representation of what is sought after. (L-III?)

How important to a skilled racer is a clear demo from a coach of the nuances of some movement they already have a conceptual understanding of? Probably not very important at all. Their learning is probably more experiential through guided discovery and less from pure visual of others and more from visual review (video) of their own skiing. (Hi level coaching that may be of minor relevance to the heart of this discussion?)

As for the credibility:

I have encountered more than a few who have read the books, memorized the jargon, appear to talk the talk, but when skiing they demonstrate a complete lack of true "working knowledge" of what they preach. Isn't working knowledge an important componentof credibility? When what they say and what they do reflects contrast and creates confusion in the learning environment, how much credibility is really warranted there?

Most importantly, rather than meeting some arbitrary standard of "hot foot" shouldn't an instructor's skiing (at any relative level) reflect efficient application of the concepts being taught? Isn't this true credibility in demonstrating working knowledge? I think this can be demonstrated at appropriate levels anywhere along an instructors own learning pathway as they strive to incorporate into their own skiing the movement concepts that the are also learning to convey to their students. An instructor who is actively learning will ultimately give a better lesson than one who already thinks they are "hot" and know it all.

The ongoing struggle of certification or accreditation agencies is to determine what is the skill set needed that is most relevant to the teaching of each level of customer.
post #25 of 75
Good points all. I'd like to add that most things can be demonstrated at a slower pace or by breaking the subject into components and demonstrating those. Bode can demonstrate world class skiing but all I'd learn from watching him zip by in a blur is that it's a lot faster than it looks on tv.:
post #26 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by nolo
How important is an instructor's skiing ability to the quality of a lesson?

How important is a person's skiing ability to the credibility of their message (on an Internet chat forum, for instance)?

In other words, will you give credence to a person who talks a good game but whose image shows technical difficulties?
I could teach skiing from the time I started and get results but as time went on, the things coming out of my mouth changed to match the new things I had gained in my own skiing. I don't know about the rest of you but I have skied with a lot of intructors of all abilities and currency, invariably what comes out of their mouths pretty much matches their skiing.

When explaining things to a student, The student listens to what comes out of your mouth and they match it to what they see in you're skiing. Even if its good coming out of you're mouth the student is apt to match the words to what they see.

As far as phyically goes, if everything works anatomically with your body then the better skier you are the easier it is so, you ought to get better with better understanding.

I can also pretty much tell from posts in the forum how a person is going to ski. I haven't be far off yet.
post #27 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
I can also pretty much tell from posts in the forum how a person is going to ski. I haven't be far off yet.
So, you knew I'd ski like Da Uper?
post #28 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcmeister
So, you knew I'd ski like Da Uper?
Yah, I figured to just add in Polka to dah video eh!
post #29 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
I can also pretty much tell from posts in the forum how a person is going to ski. I haven't be far off yet.
you know, Pierre, that you can't post this and NOT expect us to ask for synopses of skiing styles

start with me, man. describe my skiing. PLEASE.
post #30 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzostrike
you know, Pierre, that you can't post this and NOT expect us to ask for synopses of skiing styles

start with me, man. describe my skiing. PLEASE.
Sorry to admit it Gonz but lately when I look at you're posts I am looking for the Bazaar entertainment instead of the content <grin>. I don't read as much as I use to.
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