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Independent Leg Steering and High Edge Angles... - Page 3

post #61 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by therusty View Post
You are free to disagree, but this issue has been covered ad nauseum (albeit one you were not here for). PMTS acknowledges that femur rotation occurs and is a fundamental element of skiing. PMTS chooses to describe femur rotation as an unconscious result of other movements. That's a choice, not a fundamental misunderstanding.

The last I heard, PMTS was the methodology of choice at 3 ski schools world wide. It can be successfully used to teach at all levels.

Let it go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
UnSean, I think you are pretty blatantly trying to pick an argument on a tired old subject. Let it go.
Not at all, just clarifying for myself the PMTS position on femur rotation.

I did not force anyone to read my posts.

OK, I have not seen these arguments just this thread.

Please explain why a number of PMTS style threads continue ad nauseam, promoting their concept of skiing, a concept which has a number of deletions in it, yet it would seem that to attempt to question it's validity is seen as wrong.

As I stated earlier a lot of peeps will not troll through acres of back threads, they just get PMTS on a daily basis, nice if your teaching it.

A balanced perspective should always be available for all of us to have a choice.

Sean
post #62 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnSean View Post
Please explain why a number of PMTS style threads continue ad nauseam, promoting their concept of skiing, a concept which has a number of deletions in it, yet it would seem that to attempt to question it's validity is seen as wrong.
Oh, the validity of PMTS has been questioned over and over again through the years. I think that's why folks suggested we skip doing it all over again. The latest challenge is from Uncle Louie in this thread which may also answer some of your questions.

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=56089

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnSean View Post
As I stated earlier a lot of peeps will not troll through acres of back threads, they just get PMTS on a daily basis, nice if your teaching it.

A balanced perspective should always be available for all of us to have a choice.
As far as I know there aren't any folks that teach PMTS posting on Epic. For that you have to visit the PTMS Forums.

Earlier you said you had a good understanding of PMTS. I'm wondering where this understanding came from? Have you read the PMTS books (there are 4 of them) or attended a camp?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnSean View Post
A balanced perspective should always be available for all of us to have a choice.
I think you'll have a hard time finding a balanced perspective of PMTS on Epic. There are only a few of us that post on Epic that also are PMTS students. But the Google based Epic search function is terrific and can point you in the direction of many many posts that debate PMTS at length. Also, this thread I linked earlier has a bunch of discussion about how PMTS short turns are made.

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=55170
post #63 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnSean View Post
A balanced perspective should always be available for all of us to have a choice.
To misquote George Orwell, "Some people have a more balanced perspective than others!"

The questioning of the validity is ok on Epic. It's just that most of us who have been here a while don't find it very productive to go through the same arguments over and over again. The "balance" we've ended up at amounts to:
Does not!
Does so!
There are some who find PMTS to be a complete and effective teaching system. There are some who find PMTS to be "missing" pieces of well rounded skiing. You want balance? It is what it is - an alternative teaching system.

PMTS does not promote the concept of leg steering. (BTW - this is only my interpretation from reading books one and 2). If this is true (and Max, our most verbose PMTS advocate, seems to agree) then PMTS is irrelevant to the original questions. This does not make de facto proof that PMTS is missing something essential. One could easily make the case that not addressing this topic simplifies the teaching system. But this is not a question to be resolved in this thread. Let's stay focused on answering Chris's questions.
post #64 of 76
A quote from a prominent American: "When I would come home from school my dad would ask: Did you learn how to think? Or did you learn how to believe?"
Think about it when you read this stuff.
post #65 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max_501 View Post
As far as I know there aren't any folks that teach PMTS posting on Epic.
Not quite true. Both Ric and Carv Lust are PMTS instructors, as far as I know.
post #66 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat View Post
Not quite true. Both Ric and Carv Lust are PMTS instructors, as far as I know.
Arcmeister is a PMTS trainer.
post #67 of 76
Bill, I apologise - I didn't realise Arcmeister (Roger) was a trainer.
post #68 of 76
Arcmeister is Roger Kane..... (I sure hope you weren't referring to me, FOX!
post #69 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by vail snopro View Post
Arcmeister is Roger Kane..... (I sure hope you weren't referring to me, FOX!

D'oh!

Blond moment - Apologies to Roger for calling him Ric, and apologies to Ric for calling him... last night at 2am.
post #70 of 76
Fox-
Then it must have been another Ric....(whew!) You had me worried there... (RicB, did you answer your phone at 2am?) hahahah
post #71 of 76
PMTS is not recommended for skiing on dirt, grass or bogs so it would not be a good system for the UK. Perhaps UnSean you should look toward the UK World Cup Ski team for guidance and inspiration.
post #72 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
PMTS is not recommended for skiing on dirt, grass or bogs so it would not be a good system for the UK. Perhaps UnSean you should look toward the UK World Cup Ski team for guidance and inspiration.
I just might take a look into that, I would like to coach 1 or 2 skiers to WC glory I might even coach for free

I am off to Palm Desert soon, any chance I can do BPST in the sand.
post #73 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by volklskier1 View Post
Perhaps UnSean you should look toward the UK World Cup Ski team for guidance and inspiration.
That's easy to do, since Martin Bell posts on here, and he's ex-World Cup/Olympics. He's also friendly and helpful.
post #74 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnSean View Post

I am off to Palm Desert soon, any chance I can do BPST in the sand.
Give it a try. It's fun.

I *have* made ski turns on a sand dune.

I don't think those turns would have stood up to the PMTS microscope, however. I was steering tips, tails, boots, poles, any d##n thing at all to get the skis to come around.

There was even - gasp - INtentional femur rotation occurring. :

Sand puts up a lot of resistance.
post #75 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wear The Fox Hat View Post
Bill, I apologise - I didn't realise Arcmeister (Roger) was a trainer.
No apology necessary. I just wanted to post in this formally informative and interesting thread. Maybe I'll go back and clean it up a bit.
post #76 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Barnes/Colorado View Post
the distinction between some “rotary” and “pressure control” movements blurs as skis tip to higher angles, with the effects actually reversing at 90 degrees, vs. flat skis.
Bob,

After reading this profound statement and giving it further thought, I agree that the movements indeed blur as the edge angles increase! and I do believe that the same amount of turning power applied to a highly edged ski vs. a flatter ski will proportionately increase tip pressure.

I also believe that as we decrease the edge angles moving toward an edge change, applying active rotary helps keep the ski biting and turning as the edge releases it's grip creating a very active, hooky turn finish.

Awhile ago, I had started a thread about short turns and used "Cannonball's" video footage to demonstrate what I felt were awesome short turns. These turns had very similar mechanics to the ones shown in your video clip of short turns posted by Cgeib. Both Bob Barnes and Cannonball exhibit this active lower leg rotary movement as the edge angle is decreased toward edge change causing a very round finish and a prestretching or windup of the torso and feet that is released into the new turn entry which is in my mind the mark of a very proficient short turn.

I do however, find it difficult to fathom the reality of the statement "effects actually reverse at 90 degrees, vs. flat skis".
This at first seemed to create a convenient spectrum of two movements, however; in reality, it does not seem realistic, as a 90 degree angle is impossible. If there were any edge grip at all, it would seem the fore/aft movements would still pressure the tip or tail. I don't believe you could get very close to 90 degrees without either booting out or losing control of the ski. I'll bet you will probably show me some racer photos to prove me wrong....

The idea of skill blends blurring together is certainly thought provoking though.

Long live rotary movements!!

b
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