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Stone Grinding vs. Skivisions Flattening - Page 3

post #61 of 84

RPM's!  Coolant!  :popcorn

post #62 of 84

Just for giggles I used a touchless thermometer and recorded before and after base temps on the Wintersteiger S300. Temps in Fharenheit. Before 65 to 66. After 67 to 68. One pass. Not much heating going on. It was so little I didn't bother to record after multiple passes.

 

Our everyday grind runs at 450 rpm or about 6.5 meters/second.

post #63 of 84

You could always just do like this guy...

 

 

post #64 of 84

My bad on the 100's vs 1000's on RPM's (little slack as it was one in the AM). And yes, in the past decade the machines have evolved as I admitted. Ski bases themselves have evolved as well and are more durable. But at my cost? Two Range Rovers... =  $50.00 for a grind and junk wax in N.shore Mass. where I now reside. OR free every three days out, few passes, decent temp wax, scrape brush and edges as needed. Five minutes a pair unless there's some extra wear/damage. All with tools purchased back in the late 80's early 90's when I was between titles and living the dream life. I was a Maj., then got the nickname 'rippy' and now usually referred to as,"Doc,". Between my time, a new file every now and then, plus wax - everything else has paid for itself thousands of times over; I want $50 better giving it takes longer and cost more than that to deliver and pick up my family's ski's.

 

Macroscopic pores - you still need a 10x glass to see them proper. It's also a flash point heat at contact which does the damage. Duplicate your experiment with a ten year old and a roto brush, then see how much wax the surface absorbs. 

 

But then again.... the ski shop I use up in Vt. picks my ski's up for me and delivers them back for free, I do own a Roto brush, and I don't currently have a SkiVisions flattener (Holmenkol hand planer).  Alas, unless there is some serious damage to be repaired or the tunes have gotten away from me and need a freshening I will continue to stick to hand tunes. 

post #65 of 84

by removing 'both' edge and p-tex. Metal when its a low spot and plastic when its a high one. Same as the stone grinder. 

post #66 of 84

No worries SmoothRides, but we'll still disagree. WC has stock ski's of up to 5 pairs per event per skier? They need the equipment just to keep up with the numbers alone. But its interesting that they don't trust the "factory flat" even at the events?  And then they are tuned to spec.(as a freshly ground ski by itself pulls any/all wax's, finish, and flouro's out of the ski: slow as poo). Changing structure patterns aside, I've often seen one machine used by multiple teams or even leased and carted to a particular event by the manufactures themselves. Seems even entire ski team organizations are unwilling to pay the way alone.  

 

I use that SVST tool as well, including, among other products, their ceramic stones. And I've been doing it for a long time so I am quite precise, at least for someone no longer looking for 1/100th of a second. That would be the expensive training I was referring to...as precise, no. But I could come so close its not worth arguing about if I were given five hours per ski and the patience to even consider such a challenge. I'm a firm believer that "perfection" is achievable by people as well as machines.  After all WE design and build them. If you personally believe you cannot match your machine, given whatever time and/or desire, I believe you.

 

I will agree (again) that the machines of the past ten years have solved many of these issues and are really quite impressive. But as a surgeon who uses very precise and and complicated machinery on a daily basis, I can tell you it is futile to try and convince me that a machine itself is the end all.  At the very least, NOT on my body, lol. But, unlike yourself, there are many shops which over advocate the number of tunes per or simply don't inform that the machines are not needed every three days out. 

 

But comparing shop practices with any kind of articulating joint repair is like comparing WC parameters to that of a recreational skiers needs. I love the ceramic disc technology and after one preseason tune I maintain it best I can by hand for the rest of the year. Unless some damage occurs, I do it quite admirably, thank you. And its free. 

 

At the risk of repeating what I've already written as I am new to the site and did not see your reply first,please feel free to look forward if you care to. 

 

So the only number I've omitted to this point is roughly $1100.00  From the shiny new to the 1988 swix tuning bench and all the wax in between. 

 

 

Cheers

post #67 of 84

Welcome to the forum MajRich.    

  I apologise but even with a good will and possibly even agreement on the subject, I have a hard time following the train of thought in your posts.  (I'll try again tomorrow, at a somewhat earlier hour).

post #68 of 84

It appears I have been thinking laterally on a vertical post. I was trying to give my two cents on the original question. After I attempted to defend my views, but was answering from first to last, lol. A full machine tune when they really get out of whack - but waxing and maintenance can be done by hand, in a cost effective way, with less wear on your equipment. Its not knocking today's machines, but rather their overuse and the belief that this equipment does what we cannot and are therefore dependent. 

post #69 of 84

I agree with your last post, @MajRich. Machines don't need to be used for every tune. 

 

The reason that factory tunes aren't as good as shop ones with the same equipment is that a ski in the factory is still 'settling' and curing. The shop or WC tech gets the ski once it has stabilized. It is comparable to building with wet wood. The factory has 'wet' skis to tune while the shop has dry and seasoned skis.

post #70 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post
 

I agree with your last post, @MajRich. Machines don't need to be used for every tune. 

 

The reason that factory tunes aren't as good as shop ones with the same equipment is that a ski in the factory is still 'settling' and curing. The shop or WC tech gets the ski once it has stabilized. It is comparable to building with wet wood. The factory has 'wet' skis to tune while the shop has dry and seasoned skis.

The response to that would be that the factory should allow them to cure and 'settle' before doing the final finishing.    That is what any modern manufacturing process would require to hit a given level of quality.

post #71 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevperro View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post
 

I agree with your last post, @MajRich. Machines don't need to be used for every tune. 

 

The reason that factory tunes aren't as good as shop ones with the same equipment is that a ski in the factory is still 'settling' and curing. The shop or WC tech gets the ski once it has stabilized. It is comparable to building with wet wood. The factory has 'wet' skis to tune while the shop has dry and seasoned skis.

The response to that would be that the factory should allow them to cure and 'settle' before doing the final finishing.    That is what any modern manufacturing process would require to hit a given level of quality.

 

^This.    

post #72 of 84

Machines certainly speed up most processes. It is questionable whether they simplify things. They are also make processes repeatable. When Henry Ford designed the assembly line the point was to turn out parts that were identical enough to be interchangeable, something even skilled workers could not do by hand. There may be some things a skilled worker can do by hand better than a machine, which will be better depends on the worker, the machine, and the machine set up. 

post #73 of 84

I have no idea... but if you look at cure times for common epoxy or other types of set-up they are not excessive.   Even if it took weeks..... just store them in the warehouse, amortize the cost of materials for that extra step (easy to calculate cost) and then run them through final finish steps afterward.   

 

There are all kinds of industries that have similar requirements.  

post #74 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevperro View Post

 

There are all kinds of industries that have similar requirements.  

 

Exactly - other industries have evolved technological methods to speed cures (or amortise wait time*), which is how we have in-mould RF heating, low pressure curing chambers, pre-heated layups...

The only thing that offloading the burden of high quality final finish onto the retailer does is allow price point selling of unfinished product.   Sounds like selling of unfinished furniture, no?   Except, unlike unfinished furniture,  there is no added benefit of high customisation.    Which, for skis,  makes it a bad way to achieve price point.

 

 

*consider that every winemaker on the planet has to amortise wait/cellar time - ski cure wait time is small potatoes in comparison.

post #75 of 84

Our Wintersteiger rep told us about the conditions of skis tuned in the factory from his personal experience. My experience is that not all skis come from the factory with a tune that you would want to ski. I've seen zero base bevels on high end skis. At the least, a factory tune needs to be examined before it is skied. 

post #76 of 84

I have a handful of years experience in snowboard production for a mid-sized company.  Our heat pressing took about 30 min to complete, and I would think that this is the defacto standard for mass produced skis by the big companies.  Our finishing department was usually behind schedule, which allowed our boards to cure for up to a week, and our boards(cap and sandwich) almost always came out flat after hand fed stone grinding.

 

Ever since the production of skis like the elan parabolics. salomon x-screams and atomic 9.18's - concavity in the tip and tail became commonplace in cap constructions skis.  Jr cap skis are prolly the worst offenders.

 

Since then, the companies have been playing the "not enough cure time" card to explain their railed final product.  But it's been around 18 years now, and they still havn't found a solution, and continue to produce railed skis.  

 

It may be a coincidence that around the same time shape skis were introduced, so were automated tuning machines.  It is possible to stone grind a previously flat ski, to a concave profile.  I think this may be one of the factors (including short cure time) in current ski production, that results in a railed final product - but then again, it could be just another one of my misconceptions.

post #77 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post
 

I have a handful of years experience in snowboard production for a mid-sized company.  Our heat pressing took about 30 min to complete, and I would think that this is the defacto standard for mass produced skis by the big companies.  Our finishing department was usually behind schedule, which allowed our boards to cure for up to a week, and our boards(cap and sandwich) almost always came out flat after hand fed stone grinding.

 

Ever since the production of skis like the elan parabolics. salomon x-screams and atomic 9.18's - concavity in the tip and tail became commonplace in cap constructions skis.  Jr cap skis are prolly the worst offenders.

 

Since then, the companies have been playing the "not enough cure time" card to explain their railed final product.  But it's been around 18 years now, and they still havn't found a solution, and continue to produce railed skis.  

 

It may be a coincidence that around the same time shape skis were introduced, so were automated tuning machines.  It is possible to stone grind a previously flat ski, to a concave profile.  I think this may be one of the factors (including short cure time) in current ski production, that results in a railed final product - but then again, it could be just another one of my misconceptions.

 

I think not enough aging time is correct as they are likely running slightly higher settings for a faster cycle time.  More power doesn't always equal faster.  They likely need a longer aging cycle before grinding the base, but this would require higher inventory space in production and a result that isn't going to happen.

post #78 of 84
Where does this come from that wcup skis don't see machines?
Silly. The Austrians were one of the first to use the ceramic discs machines for edges.
Not sure what Maj Rich is talking about. He says he worked in Ludlow.

There's been a robotic base grinder in Ludlow, VT since about 2000? As I recall it was $200-250 thousand at the time. Very early adopter at one store. Ironically that store had only the 40k handheld edge machine. Recently another store got a robotic machine. That was like $300-350 thousand. (Discovery). Tons of race skis from Stratton Mt school have been processed on these. There are race skis prepped all the time. Edgewise in Stowe does hundreds of racers skis as does Peak Performance in Killington. Where these non grinding racers are I don't know.

You don't get a grind unless necessary but they are necessary. I'm also with smoothrides in the hand held edge grinder use. Most college skiers use them if they have them. They get skis sharper although you do have to be careful.

I suspect that most non A team, ie no ski tech supplied, wcup US skiers will use a hand held edge grinder to save time and get that edge sharpness.
post #79 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Where does this come from that wcup skis don't see machines?
Silly. The Austrians were one of the first to use the ceramic discs machines for edges.
Not sure what Maj Rich is talking about. He says he worked in Ludlow.

There's been a robotic base grinder in Ludlow, VT since about 2000? As I recall it was $200-250 thousand at the time. Very early adopter at one store. Ironically that store had only the 40k handheld edge machine. Recently another store got a robotic machine. That was like $300-350 thousand. (Discovery). Tons of race skis from Stratton Mt school have been processed on these. There are race skis prepped all the time. Edgewise in Stowe does hundreds of racers skis as does Peak Performance in Killington. Where these non grinding racers are I don't know.

You don't get a grind unless necessary but they are necessary. I'm also with smoothrides in the hand held edge grinder use. Most college skiers use them if they have them. They get skis sharper although you do have to be careful.

I suspect that most non A team, ie no ski tech supplied, wcup US skiers will use a hand held edge grinder to save time and get that edge sharpness.

We are waaay off topic, and yes Northern Ski Works Robotic edge and wax machines were a revelation to the area.Same shop had a nice Montana stone grinder at the time, not top of the line, but great for the time.

 

Every ski see's a machine at the beginning of its life and at least once before even touching snow, if you plan to race it. Yes, Since 98' this became the norm in most larger race programs. But only when things get really out of wack as until about 2005 when disc sharpeners became widely available did it become anything beyond a last resort. The amount of work to re establish edge and base settings were too time consuming. About the same time sidewall planers ended up in almost every tuning box. And SMS kids still tune their own ski's as part of the program. Alpine and Nordic. As does KMS and the three teams around Stowe. Ask any of the kids and they'd be annoyed to have you think they can't maintain their own bases and edges. I'm also glad you brought up hand held disc grinders, about ten of us got together and bought one for the house in VT. Two years on and I'm the only one who's managed to get good enough at it to use it on a regular basis. A friend of mine let me try his edge pro II which is much more user friendly. But neither is cheap, and I still don't mind the hand stones. 

 

All of this detracts from the original question of a recreational skier asking for tuning advice. I'm thirteen years out of the competitive game and if it has been taken over by the "machine lovers" who take it personally that you cannot ski without their technology, I find that depressing.

 

I was interested in the curing comments as I ski'd with several manufactures through H/S, College and Pro ams on Atomic, Rossi, Fisher, Head and Stockli. The Swiss were the only ski's that I never found a pair of which not only never had a base issue, I never had a uneven flexing pair. Funny since these are the guys who proclaim themselves as the last of the handmade ski's. And it wasn't just in their Laser race line, but also one-off laser SC's. Of course that was about 2006, about the same time they started to get the machines working on ski's with such extreme shapes. 

 

Since I no longer compete except on the brief occasion I can sneak into a chef's race or the like I've been running Head and Fisher. The number of ski's I've found issue with off the rack is all but negligible. But I do seem to only ever get beat by the boys still running around in speed suits and most likely your machine preps? Interesting since I am aware that I am past the Lycra suit phase (so are most of them btw) and while I've had my share of wins, even my losses have been under .5, not bad for an old guy on hand prepped Fisher RS's or SC's and my ski pants and jacket flapping in the breeze. .  

post #80 of 84
No, nothing like that at all has happened. Those people who tune their own skis still are. No reason to get depressed!
Edited by Tog - 1/27/15 at 6:33am
post #81 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post
 

At the least, a factory tune needs to be examined before it is skied. 

X2!!!

 

And I'll go one step further and say at the VERY least, a factory tune needs to be examined before it is skied.

 

It's common practice for many ski racers, especially the better ones, to have brand new skis skim ground to assure everything starts out flat and is at zero before a file ever touches the ski.

post #82 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by MajRich View Post
 

We are waaay off topic, and yes Northern Ski Works Robotic edge and wax machines were a revelation to the area.Same shop had a nice Montana stone grinder at the time, not top of the line, but great for the time.

 

FWIW, that's pretty much expected on Epic, on just about every thread's second page, certainly by the third.  

post #83 of 84

Awesome stuff! 

:popcorn

post #84 of 84

I know four of my friends whom I grew up racing in WY and VT that no longer ski. I have two kids and they all have two or more. Its too expensive for them. Thats depressing. Anything which increases cost, especially if its subjective, is not good for our sport. 

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